de-activating the grip safety in a 1911 - Page 2

lefteyedom · September 17, 2010, 10:38 PM

It is your pistol, build it the way you like it,

Just take responsibility for it.

I love my Remington Rand Essex Frankenstein 45. If it should ever be fire in defense of myself or others, all the custom gunsmithing work done to it will not help me in a court of law. That is a risk I accept. For the record all the safeties work fine on mine.

jbrow117 · April 25, 2012, 05:09 PM

Old or not this is new to me and thanksfor the thread. During CPL practice on occasion my gun didn't go bang. This is due to riding the safety high and having the web of my hand push up on the beavertail. So far I've resolved the problem with a good thick rubber band. If someone asks I say I'm having problems with my grips falling off due to stripped screws. Now my gun goes bang every time when I draw and pull the trigger. I'll worry about the legal ramafications if I ever need to use my gun in a defensive situation or I'll take the rubber band off after. I want my gun to go bang if I need it to.

RickB · April 25, 2012, 05:28 PM

So, you're afraid you'll accidentally shoot someone while NOT holding the gun? That's the only time the grip safety comes into play.

Quote:

I want my gun to go bang if I need it to.

Exactly.

Trousselle · April 30, 2012, 12:59 PM

Bonjour,

Merci pour ce tour d'horizon très complet

A bientôt

Michel

James K · April 30, 2012, 07:10 PM

Judging by his other designs, JMB never believed in any safety on a hammer gun except the half-cock. As for "who knows if a grip safety was or wasn't intended in the final design", we do know, since the final design was produced. But Browning's original patent, and the first FN model shop models for what became the BHP show NO safety devices of any kind.

Jim

HiBC · May 3, 2012, 04:38 AM

I have since discovered I was only getting a semi-iffy grip safety release even with a bump on the grip safety.Careful study told me ,between the high grip beavertail and my big,meaty hand an arched mainspring housing just held the heel of my hand too far back,and the hollow in the center of my palm was not making positive contact.It may be a Wilson,I found a great flat mainspring housing that is a slightly round butt style,nicely checkered.I really like it,and the grip safet problem is positively cured.

Jammer Six · May 3, 2012, 07:52 AM

In my book, only fools deactivate safeties on 1911s.

drail · May 3, 2012, 09:15 PM

So all of the posters who believe that deactivating a grip safety is such a terrible thing to do, do any of you even understand exactly how the grip safety works and what it does and doesn't do? I have to keep from laughing whenever I hear people freak out when they hear a that grip safety has been deactivated but don't see any problem with the design of a Glock.

MLeake · May 3, 2012, 09:22 PM

Only a fool would disable 1911 safeties?

Based on comments on his website, I guess Larry Vickers must be a fool, then, as he mentions the possible benefits of a pinned or taped grip safety.

(Actually, more than one reputable writer has mentioned the possibility of a hand injury combining with a 1911 grip safety to effectively disable the weapon in a defensive scenario.)

drail · May 3, 2012, 10:43 PM

Yeah, I am a fool. I have three 1911s and all of them have the GS pinned down. I learned shooting USPSA comp for quite a few years that sometimes you don't get a perfect grip but you still need to to be able to fire the gun. I never really understood what the GS what supposed to prevent anyway. If you don't touch the trigger until you WANT the gun to fire what exactly is the GS preventing? If your finger is on the trigger when you DON"T want the gun to fire then all the safeties in the world aren't going to save you.

**Unclenick** · May 4, 2012, 11:27 AM

Drail,

The 1911 grip safety prevents firing if you drop the cocked and unlocked gun and it lands on the back corner of its grip frame. In that scenario, the inertia of the trigger and bow can be great enough to carry them into the sear and depress it. Pivoting triggers don't so typically cause this issue as a portion of their mass is on either side of the pivot pin, so the trigger mass on the side opposite of the pin from the stirrup tends to neutralize at least some of the stirrup's inertia.

The Glock doesn't need the grip safety because the safety in the trigger serves the same purpose in the drop scenario: like the grip safety, it isn't depressed when the gun is dropped. Besides, the Glock trigger is light (not much inertia) and pivots, so it does have of the neutralizing effect, where 100% of the 1911's inertia tends to help depress the sear and trigger return spring leaf in that drop scenario.

Note that anything that reduces the 1911 trigger mass helps fight the problem. The original 1911 trigger is steel, and is heavy for its size. The original Colt Goldcup trigger is also steel and is wider and heavier, plus it is often combined with lightened sear engagement, so the problem is even worse with it (which is one reason the little spring buffering sear depressor was added to Goldcup sears). For the average 1911 owner, therefore, the threat of inertial firing on drop may be mitigated by going to a trigger with a skeletonized aluminum stirrup and lightened bow. That takes a lot of the inertia out for both the accidental drop scenario and for when you depress the slide stop to chamber a round without depressing the trigger first (as all bullseye match shooters learned to do with the Goldcup).

jbrow117 · May 28, 2012, 11:20 AM

If I search for information and it is five years old but USEFUL. It's new to me!
BTW: It was useful.

Thanks for the information!

Harry Bonar · May 28, 2012, 05:23 PM

Sir;
Leave it alone!
Harry B.

Willie Sutton · May 29, 2012, 07:31 AM

The 1911A1 that I carried thru Gunsite and afterwards had the the most simple "deactivation" possible: Remove the grips, use good quality black electrical tape to tape down the safety (three complete wraps around the entire frame and safety) and then re-installation of the grips. You never know it's there (and on my old 1911A1 with the parkerizing, you can't see it either).

Simple = Good.

Willie

.

pat701 · May 29, 2012, 07:41 AM

If you must do it, use Duct Tape.

drail · May 29, 2012, 09:49 PM

Camouflage or Tactical Black Duct Tape.

bradleyart · October 27, 2013, 09:37 AM

I know this thread is pretty old, but it comes up high on the Google Search, so I thought I'd share my experience.

There's a great deal of discussion about the merits or demerits of pinning (or otherwise disabling) the grip safety on 1911 pistols. I'm a long time shooter, and I have found that I grip high and sometimes do not fully depress the grip safety. I know that there are some who will suggest that it is due to a poor grip, but in fact, this is quite common among 1911 shooters, even professionals. I figure it's a personal choice about disabling the safety. My other pistols only have one (or zero) safeties, and I've never had an accidental discharge.

So, I started by looking at the options. I discovered several:

1. Install a low-profile safety, which is supposed to help with this problem by better aligning the thumb so that the palm presses the grip safety. I tried this, and it DID help, but still not 100%.

2. Drill the main spring housing and grip safety and install a metal pin. I did not want to permanently modify my weapon, so I chose not to do this.

3. Use a rubber band, inner tube, or other compressive band to hold the grip safety down. I considered this, but it's a bit of an eye sore.

4. Use a piece of compressive material (and friction) to keep the grip safety compressed. I went this route. I cut a small section of automotive O-ring and inserted it between the grip safety and mainspring housing (see photos). Next, I compressed the grip safety with a stiff rubber band, and reassembled the pistol. Getting the mainspring housing back on with the O-ring in place took a little hand strength, but nothing terrible. In the end, it worked GREAT. The grip safety is now completely compressed, and I can shoot without worrying about how I grip the pistol. The automotive O-ring is quite durable, and I don't expect it to degrade or otherwise give me trouble, but if it does, I'll update this post.

A couple of photos show the idea. Sorry that they're not clearer. I hope that this post helps others who are looking for a method to disable their grip safety.

**OldMarksman** · October 27, 2013, 11:43 AM

One does not want to disable safeties or lighten trigger pulls.

Either can give a civil plaintiff an argument against you in the event of a shooting, deliberate or unintended, and either could harm one's defense in the event of criminal proceedings.

**Unclenick** · October 27, 2013, 04:48 PM

Ideally, you're correct. But you also don't want a defensive weapon that doesn't work reliably, either. My dad had this problem at Gunsite. Couldn't always press the 1911 trigger successfully. It seems to be the shape of the hollow of your palm when you grip the gun that does it. The 1911 preceded modern ergonomics models of human form variance.

g.willikers · October 27, 2013, 06:14 PM

I must be one of the lucky ones.
Never a problem.
If it weren't for discussions like this, I'd never know there was one.
With one exception, all my centerfire autoloaders have been 1911s, too.
Thank you Mr. Browning for thinking of me.

HiBC · October 28, 2013, 02:38 AM

UncleNick,that is my situation,meaty heel of my hand and a hollow palm.

I can use a military type setup if it has a flat mainspring housing.An arched MH pushes the heel of my hand back.

With a hi-ride beavertail,I need a speed bump grip safety and a flat mainspring housing.

This may be useful to those having problems.

September 17, 2010, 10:38 PM	#26
lefteyedom Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 333	It's your gun. It is your pistol, build it the way you like it, Just take responsibility for it. I love my Remington Rand Essex Frankenstein 45. If it should ever be fire in defense of myself or others, all the custom gunsmithing work done to it will not help me in a court of law. That is a risk I accept. For the record all the safeties work fine on mine.

April 25, 2012, 05:09 PM	#27
jbrow117 Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 7	Old Thread Old or not this is new to me and thanksfor the thread. During CPL practice on occasion my gun didn't go bang. This is due to riding the safety high and having the web of my hand push up on the beavertail. So far I've resolved the problem with a good thick rubber band. If someone asks I say I'm having problems with my grips falling off due to stripped screws. Now my gun goes bang every time when I draw and pull the trigger. I'll worry about the legal ramafications if I ever need to use my gun in a defensive situation or I'll take the rubber band off after. I want my gun to go bang if I need it to.

April 30, 2012, 12:59 PM	#29
Trousselle Junior Member Join Date: March 10, 2012 Location: France Posts: 1	de-activating the grip safety in a 1911 Bonjour, Merci pour ce tour d'horizon très complet A bientôt Michel

May 3, 2012, 07:52 AM	#32
Jammer Six Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 827	In my book, only fools deactivate safeties on 1911s. __________________ "Huh?" --Jammer Six, 1998

May 4, 2012, 11:27 AM	#36
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Drail, The 1911 grip safety prevents firing if you drop the cocked and unlocked gun and it lands on the back corner of its grip frame. In that scenario, the inertia of the trigger and bow can be great enough to carry them into the sear and depress it. Pivoting triggers don't so typically cause this issue as a portion of their mass is on either side of the pivot pin, so the trigger mass on the side opposite of the pin from the stirrup tends to neutralize at least some of the stirrup's inertia. The Glock doesn't need the grip safety because the safety in the trigger serves the same purpose in the drop scenario: like the grip safety, it isn't depressed when the gun is dropped. Besides, the Glock trigger is light (not much inertia) and pivots, so it does have of the neutralizing effect, where 100% of the 1911's inertia tends to help depress the sear and trigger return spring leaf in that drop scenario. Note that anything that reduces the 1911 trigger mass helps fight the problem. The original 1911 trigger is steel, and is heavy for its size. The original Colt Goldcup trigger is also steel and is wider and heavier, plus it is often combined with lightened sear engagement, so the problem is even worse with it (which is one reason the little spring buffering sear depressor was added to Goldcup sears). For the average 1911 owner, therefore, the threat of inertial firing on drop may be mitigated by going to a trigger with a skeletonized aluminum stirrup and lightened bow. That takes a lot of the inertia out for both the accidental drop scenario and for when you depress the slide stop to chamber a round without depressing the trigger first (as all bullseye match shooters learned to do with the Goldcup). __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 30, 2012, 07:10 PM	#30
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Judging by his other designs, JMB never believed in any safety on a hammer gun except the half-cock. As for "who knows if a grip safety was or wasn't intended in the final design", we do know, since the final design was produced. But Browning's original patent, and the first FN model shop models for what became the BHP show NO safety devices of any kind. Jim

May 3, 2012, 04:38 AM	#31
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I have since discovered I was only getting a semi-iffy grip safety release even with a bump on the grip safety.Careful study told me ,between the high grip beavertail and my big,meaty hand an arched mainspring housing just held the heel of my hand too far back,and the hollow in the center of my palm was not making positive contact.It may be a Wilson,I found a great flat mainspring housing that is a slightly round butt style,nicely checkered.I really like it,and the grip safet problem is positively cured.

May 3, 2012, 09:15 PM	#33
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	So all of the posters who believe that deactivating a grip safety is such a terrible thing to do, do any of you even understand exactly how the grip safety works and what it does and doesn't do? I have to keep from laughing whenever I hear people freak out when they hear a that grip safety has been deactivated but don't see any problem with the design of a Glock.

May 3, 2012, 09:22 PM	#34
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Only a fool would disable 1911 safeties? Based on comments on his website, I guess Larry Vickers must be a fool, then, as he mentions the possible benefits of a pinned or taped grip safety. (Actually, more than one reputable writer has mentioned the possibility of a hand injury combining with a 1911 grip safety to effectively disable the weapon in a defensive scenario.)

May 3, 2012, 10:43 PM	#35
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	Yeah, I am a fool. I have three 1911s and all of them have the GS pinned down. I learned shooting USPSA comp for quite a few years that sometimes you don't get a perfect grip but you still need to to be able to fire the gun. I never really understood what the GS what supposed to prevent anyway. If you don't touch the trigger until you WANT the gun to fire what exactly is the GS preventing? If your finger is on the trigger when you DON"T want the gun to fire then all the safeties in the world aren't going to save you.

May 28, 2012, 11:20 AM	#37
jbrow117 Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2012 Location: Michigan Posts: 7	Old Thread If I search for information and it is five years old but USEFUL. It's new to me! BTW: It was useful. Thanks for the information!

May 28, 2012, 05:23 PM	#38
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	gripsafety Sir; Leave it alone! Harry B.

May 29, 2012, 07:31 AM	#39
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	The 1911A1 that I carried thru Gunsite and afterwards had the the most simple "deactivation" possible: Remove the grips, use good quality black electrical tape to tape down the safety (three complete wraps around the entire frame and safety) and then re-installation of the grips. You never know it's there (and on my old 1911A1 with the parkerizing, you can't see it either). Simple = Good. Willie .

May 29, 2012, 07:41 AM	#40
pat701 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2005 Location: South west Missouri Posts: 315	If you must do it, use Duct Tape.

May 29, 2012, 09:49 PM	#41
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	Camouflage or Tactical Black Duct Tape.

October 27, 2013, 11:43 AM	#43
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	One does not want to disable safeties or lighten trigger pulls. Either can give a civil plaintiff an argument against you in the event of a shooting, deliberate or unintended, and either could harm one's defense in the event of criminal proceedings.

October 27, 2013, 04:48 PM	#44
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Ideally, you're correct. But you also don't want a defensive weapon that doesn't work reliably, either. My dad had this problem at Gunsite. Couldn't always press the 1911 trigger successfully. It seems to be the shape of the hollow of your palm when you grip the gun that does it. The 1911 preceded modern ergonomics models of human form variance. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 27, 2013, 06:14 PM	#45
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	I must be one of the lucky ones. Never a problem. If it weren't for discussions like this, I'd never know there was one. With one exception, all my centerfire autoloaders have been 1911s, too. Thank you Mr. Browning for thinking of me. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

October 28, 2013, 02:38 AM	#46
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	UncleNick,that is my situation,meaty heel of my hand and a hollow palm. I can use a military type setup if it has a flat mainspring housing.An arched MH pushes the heel of my hand back. With a hi-ride beavertail,I need a speed bump grip safety and a flat mainspring housing. This may be useful to those having problems.