Got a tough ?

impalacustom · September 23, 2009, 03:58 AM

I know there are a ton of gun powders out there and there are about as many charts that compare them, burn rate and such. Here is what I need. Crack open the books old timers and help me. Does anyone have a comparison or substitution chart for the OLD powders, Du Pont Military No. 16, 18 and such? What of todays powders compare to the old ones?

HiBC · September 23, 2009, 04:14 AM

The oldest reference I have is PO Ackleys handbooks for shooters,and I do not recognize the military powder designations you show.

I can tell you that if you use the old data for,say 4895 or 4831 powders,even if you have the appropriate IMR or H ,you will be unpleasantly surprised.I have seen blown open primer pockets from a gentleman having his old reloading buddy "duplicate" the old hunting load 20 years later.

The other thing is,burn charts have a place ,but powders all have a more complex personality than that.Some are broad spectrum,steady and forgiving,some are hi performance within a narrow range,some suddenly spike pressures.

I suggest it may be easier to help if you tell us what you are trying to accomplish.

Are you matching a velocity/trajectory?Are you trying to tune an appropriate pressure curve to a gas gun?Likely you can get some good info.

Jim Watson · September 23, 2009, 08:24 AM

The IMR powders were not grain for grain replacements for the prior MR powders, although you can see the equivalencies and substitutions. A discussion of the progress in powder development fills an entire chapter in the Complete Guide to Handloading by Phil Sharpe.

In short, IMR 3031 replaced #17 1/2, IMR 4064 replaced #15 1/2, IMR 4198 replaced #25 1/2, 4227 replaced #1204, and IMR 4320 replaced #1147. (The "1/2" designation signifies the presence of tin in the powder to reduce hard metal fouling from cupro-nickel jackets. Each "1/2" powder had its tin-free version.)

Previously, #17 1/2 had replaced #17 which was a modified #16. Sharpe preferred #16 for most applications.

#19 was the infamous Pyro and #20 was Pyro DG as used in WW I .30-06. MR 10 was formulated for the .280 Ross and #21 was what made the .250 Savage the .250-3000. #18 was suited to things like .30-30.

wncchester · September 23, 2009, 09:19 AM

I don't normally worry much about "old" powders, not less its more than 50-60 years old anyway. The stuff you mention goes back 70-90 years and that's a bit too old even for me.

I'm not gonna look it up but you can find data on those powers, some of them anyway, in Phil Sharpes book, "Complete Guide to Handloading."

impalacustom · September 23, 2009, 05:47 PM

Thanks Jim, that is what I was curious about. I was reading a book authored by Townsend Whelen and he refers to a lot of powders I have never heard of and I was wondering if there was a book/chart or such that compared them to more modern powders. This book has all the old odd calibers such as the 280 Ross, several Newtons and all the information on reloading them.

The book is very interesting and it's too bad the book is so old as it contains some very good information in it that is more than revelant in todays throw-away society.

farmall · September 24, 2009, 09:51 AM

What is the name of the book? Sounds good. The book by Sharpe is a great guide too! Wish I could find a copy.

Andy

impalacustom · September 24, 2009, 03:58 PM

Andy if you want to buy it you can get it here: http://www.amazon.com/American-Rifle.../dp/1581605137

If you want to download it you can get it here: http://www.archive.org/details/ameri...etre00wheliala

It is very interesting to read and explains a lot about things people argue over daily on the forums here.

GeauxTide · September 24, 2009, 08:09 PM

IndigoMontoya can answer that.

September 23, 2009, 03:58 AM	#1
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	Got a tough ? I know there are a ton of gun powders out there and there are about as many charts that compare them, burn rate and such. Here is what I need. Crack open the books old timers and help me. Does anyone have a comparison or substitution chart for the OLD powders, Du Pont Military No. 16, 18 and such? What of todays powders compare to the old ones?

September 23, 2009, 04:14 AM	#2
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	The oldest reference I have is PO Ackleys handbooks for shooters,and I do not recognize the military powder designations you show. I can tell you that if you use the old data for,say 4895 or 4831 powders,even if you have the appropriate IMR or H ,you will be unpleasantly surprised.I have seen blown open primer pockets from a gentleman having his old reloading buddy "duplicate" the old hunting load 20 years later. The other thing is,burn charts have a place ,but powders all have a more complex personality than that.Some are broad spectrum,steady and forgiving,some are hi performance within a narrow range,some suddenly spike pressures. I suggest it may be easier to help if you tell us what you are trying to accomplish. Are you matching a velocity/trajectory?Are you trying to tune an appropriate pressure curve to a gas gun?Likely you can get some good info.

September 23, 2009, 08:24 AM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	The IMR powders were not grain for grain replacements for the prior MR powders, although you can see the equivalencies and substitutions. A discussion of the progress in powder development fills an entire chapter in the Complete Guide to Handloading by Phil Sharpe. In short, IMR 3031 replaced #17 1/2, IMR 4064 replaced #15 1/2, IMR 4198 replaced #25 1/2, 4227 replaced #1204, and IMR 4320 replaced #1147. (The "1/2" designation signifies the presence of tin in the powder to reduce hard metal fouling from cupro-nickel jackets. Each "1/2" powder had its tin-free version.) Previously, #17 1/2 had replaced #17 which was a modified #16. Sharpe preferred #16 for most applications. #19 was the infamous Pyro and #20 was Pyro DG as used in WW I .30-06. MR 10 was formulated for the .280 Ross and #21 was what made the .250 Savage the .250-3000. #18 was suited to things like .30-30.

September 23, 2009, 09:19 AM	#4
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	I don't normally worry much about "old" powders, not less its more than 50-60 years old anyway. The stuff you mention goes back 70-90 years and that's a bit too old even for me. I'm not gonna look it up but you can find data on those powers, some of them anyway, in Phil Sharpes book, "Complete Guide to Handloading."

September 23, 2009, 05:47 PM	#5
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	Thanks Jim, that is what I was curious about. I was reading a book authored by Townsend Whelen and he refers to a lot of powders I have never heard of and I was wondering if there was a book/chart or such that compared them to more modern powders. This book has all the old odd calibers such as the 280 Ross, several Newtons and all the information on reloading them. The book is very interesting and it's too bad the book is so old as it contains some very good information in it that is more than revelant in todays throw-away society.

September 24, 2009, 09:51 AM	#6
farmall Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Beatrice Nebraska Posts: 613	What is the name of the book? Sounds good. The book by Sharpe is a great guide too! Wish I could find a copy. Andy

September 24, 2009, 03:58 PM	#7
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	Andy if you want to buy it you can get it here: http://www.amazon.com/American-Rifle.../dp/1581605137 If you want to download it you can get it here: http://www.archive.org/details/ameri...etre00wheliala It is very interesting to read and explains a lot about things people argue over daily on the forums here.

September 24, 2009, 08:09 PM	#8
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	IndigoMontoya can answer that.