question about "less lethal rounds"

revinkevin · June 8, 2006, 10:30 AM

well seeing as in california you cant shoot someone entering your home unless they are running at you with a knife or pointing a gun at you. i was condsidering getting some less lethal rounds, to have in the event a burgler comes into my house.( ive seen people get shot with the bean bag rounds police use and they go down and stay down.) has anyone done any testing with these or know anything about them? for example range, damage done ect? ive seen rubber ball (like a slug) and rubber buckshot. any input? i was planning on having some real buckshot sitting right next to it

incase things get out of hand.

Dfariswheel · June 8, 2006, 02:08 PM

If someone is in your home, things are already "out of hand".

From an old post about "less lethal" ammo:
====================================
Do some searches on the gun forums, including this one and you'll get some good info.

The bottom line on "Less lethal" ammo is simply this: Use by citizens for home defense is both suicidal and stupid.

First, less lethal is for use ONLY by the police in situations were they are fully covered and backed up by other police armed with LETHAL ammo, and in situations where they think they can take the risk.
Less lethal ammo FAILS in many or even most cases.

Second, is the legal situation.
Bottom line, the law is very definite: If you fire a gun at someone, it doesn't matter if the load is buckshot or cotton balls.
You have fired a deadly weapon at a human. If the situation is serious enough to warrant firing a weapon, it doesn't matter if that person lives or dies, legally.

What all this comes down to is this.
1. Using "less lethal" ammo is suicidally dangerous for an home owner, due to the high possibility it will fail to stop or deter the bad guy.

2. Firing less lethal ammo at a person IS deadly force according to the law. Attempting to "deter" someone in a situation where you don't think lethal ammo is warranted will see YOU charged with felony crimes.

3. NEVER, EVER, NEVER base or plan your defense on being able to fire more then ONE shot.
In the "real world" you're lucky to get one shot, and that shot had better be an effective one.

Imagine a situation where you've just fired a less lethal round in your living room at 3:00 am, and it FAILS.

Bad things happen in the real world. Your gun jams, the next round fails to fire, the bad guy gets off a lucky shot, you stumble, whatever.
You now have an ANGRY armed intruder in your face, and HE isn't going to be firing a less lethal round to give YOU a break.

To quote famous Border Patrolman Bill Jordon: "Like being just a LITTLE pregnant, there's no such thing as shooting a human being "just a little". If you have to shoot someone, shoot them GOOD".

Less lethal ammo is NOT for use by citizens who aren't backed up by other people with lethal ammo covering them.

Less lethal is only "LESS" lethal. It can and will kill, and is legally considered to be no different than a Magnum load of buckshot.

Trying to NOT shoot someone by shooting them with less lethal ammo is legally wrong and can get you charged and sued.

Planning on firing a less lethal round, THEN planning on being able to fire lethal rounds if the first fails, is suicidally foolish.

Trying to "give a break" to a person insane enough or violent enough to invade your very HOME is itself insane.
Anyone invading your home or confronting a person armed with a shotgun is NOT normal.

Is it your intention to put your life and the lives of your family in the hands of an insane, abnormal person?

jhgreasemonkey · June 8, 2006, 02:12 PM

I agree. A close friend of mine works in the prison and in some cases the non lethal crap just pisses a guy off who's 2 times your size and crazy. At home you wont have 10 other guys to back you up if it doesnt work.

kozak6 · June 8, 2006, 05:22 PM

Depending on what you use, some of it will kill if used within 30 feet of the bad guy.

Also, some of it (like some of the rubber buckshot) is designed to be bounced off the ground into a rioter's legs, not fired into the bad guys chest.

Bender711 · June 8, 2006, 05:35 PM

If you just look at the name "less lethal" to me that means that its less effective. Now if they would make "more lethal" ammo then you would have something.

Rimrod · June 8, 2006, 06:28 PM

Buy a knife.

JNewell · June 8, 2006, 06:34 PM

Deadly force is deadly force and less lethal is still deadly force, I'll bet, especially in states like California. Google Victoria Snellgrove Boston Police and see what can happen with "less lethal" munitions. If the situation is bad enough to warrant producing and using a gun, it's bad enough to permit you to use deadly force to defend yourself. If it isn't, forget the gun.

revinkevin · June 8, 2006, 09:08 PM

okay real slugs and buck shot it is! many good points i failed to realize!

akr · June 8, 2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

If someone is in your home, things are already "out of hand".

From an old post about "less lethal" ammo:
====================================
Do some searches on the gun forums, including this one and you'll get some good info.

The bottom line on "Less lethal" ammo is simply this: Use by citizens for home defense is both suicidal and stupid.

First, less lethal is for use ONLY by the police in situations were they are fully covered and backed up by other police armed with LETHAL ammo, and in situations where they think they can take the risk.
Less lethal ammo FAILS in many or even most cases.

Second, is the legal situation.
Bottom line, the law is very definite: If you fire a gun at someone, it doesn't matter if the load is buckshot or cotton balls.
You have fired a deadly weapon at a human. If the situation is serious enough to warrant firing a weapon, it doesn't matter if that person lives or dies, legally.

What all this comes down to is this.
1. Using "less lethal" ammo is suicidally dangerous for an home owner, due to the high possibility it will fail to stop or deter the bad guy.

2. Firing less lethal ammo at a person IS deadly force according to the law. Attempting to "deter" someone in a situation where you don't think lethal ammo is warranted will see YOU charged with felony crimes.

3. NEVER, EVER, NEVER base or plan your defense on being able to fire more then ONE shot.
In the "real world" you're lucky to get one shot, and that shot had better be an effective one.

Imagine a situation where you've just fired a less lethal round in your living room at 3:00 am, and it FAILS.

Bad things happen in the real world. Your gun jams, the next round fails to fire, the bad guy gets off a lucky shot, you stumble, whatever.
You now have an ANGRY armed intruder in your face, and HE isn't going to be firing a less lethal round to give YOU a break.

To quote famous Border Patrolman Bill Jordon: "Like being just a LITTLE pregnant, there's no such thing as shooting a human being "just a little". If you have to shoot someone, shoot them GOOD".

Less lethal ammo is NOT for use by citizens who aren't backed up by other people with lethal ammo covering them.

Less lethal is only "LESS" lethal. It can and will kill, and is legally considered to be no different than a Magnum load of buckshot.

Trying to NOT shoot someone by shooting them with less lethal ammo is legally wrong and can get you charged and sued.

Planning on firing a less lethal round, THEN planning on being able to fire lethal rounds if the first fails, is suicidally foolish.

Trying to "give a break" to a person insane enough or violent enough to invade your very HOME is itself insane.
Anyone invading your home or confronting a person armed with a shotgun is NOT normal.

Is it your intention to put your life and the lives of your family in the hands of an insane, abnormal person?

Very good and very correct!

Savage10FP308 · June 8, 2006, 10:49 PM

but saying less-lethal ammo fails most of the time is a blanket statement and like most blanket statements it just happens to be false. Back it up with some facts. Until then I will have to disagree. I wouldn't use that ammo as my home defense ammo. Stick with the 00 Buckshot!

akr · June 8, 2006, 11:36 PM

Quote:

but saying less-lethal ammo fails most of the time is a blanket statement and like most blanket statements it just happens to be false. Back it up with some facts. Until then I will have to disagree. I wouldn't use that ammo as my home defense ammo. Stick with the 00 Buckshot!

I believe Dfariswheel IS advocating using a lethal load.

444 · June 9, 2006, 12:20 AM

I have posted on this subject before, so I am going to make it brief.
"Beanbag rounds" can be lethal. I have personally seen some of the autopsy photos.
Sometimes the bag just stays in a tight ball. Sometimes the side of the bag strikes the target and the teflon thread used to sew it together penetrates. I saw one picture of a guy wearing a big medalion (sp ?): big thing on a chain around his neck. Anyway, the beanbag hit that and drove it clear through his chest. That's a big hole.

A guy in my Gunsite shotgun class worked for LAPD and he accidently blinded someone with a beanbag round.

CaCrusin · June 9, 2006, 11:20 AM

This thread started with a faulty premise...That in California you can only use lethal force in your home if you are immediately confronting your assailant. The California legislature passed the "Man's Home is His Castle" laws a decade ago which protect a homeowner from prosecution, both criminal and civil, for using deadly force in defending his/her home from an intruder. It is true that you can not legally shoot an retreating thief, but you can and should shoot a retreating criminal who has commited a crime of violence in your home and is fleeing, with the potential to commit other violent crimes against persons.

Savage10FP308 · June 9, 2006, 03:59 PM

in the hands of properly trained law enforcement, less lethal rounds do their job. As someone already pointed out, that is really the only time they should be used. Im the case of protecting my family and myself I would not choose a less lethal round. If someone is attacking you in your own home, you have the right to choose lethal force.

akr · June 9, 2006, 07:42 PM

Quote:

in the hands of properly trained law enforcement, less lethal rounds do their job. As someone already pointed out, that is really the only time they should be used. Im the case of protecting my family and myself I would not choose a less lethal round. If someone is attacking you in your own home, you have the right to choose lethal force.

OK-----I hear you--thumbs up!

revinkevin · June 9, 2006, 08:40 PM

thanks for clearing that up Ca Crusin!

pointman131 · June 9, 2006, 08:50 PM

I have alot of experience with less lethal rounds. Beanbags work fine, when you have the luxury of being able to take your time and aim. The OC rounds used in Boston also work fine, if they strike where intended. The weapon used there was manufactured by FN, and is CO2 powered. Not unlike a paintball marker. But, the rounds are HARD plastic, and it is traveling at an average of 375 fps. We have one, and shot a 4"x4" treated post with one at the range. Nearly 1/2" penitration. If my memory serves me correctly, the round in Boston struck the lady in or around the eye socket and took the path of least resistance, thus tumbling through the eye partially penetrating the frontal lobe of the brain.

Beanbag rounds are capable of doing the same thing if they fail to "unroll" during flight. Just imagine this, take a one ounce slug and crumble it up. Then wrap it with what is very much like burlap somewhat tightly, then sew a tail on it. That is what you have with a beanbag round, again, moving at around 350 fps. Can be devastatingly painful if it strikes one of the soft areas of flesh. But then again, if you take the time to make a good shot. If you are defending your home, I doubt you will have that time.

As for home protection, if someone comes in after hours, they are not there to sell girl scout cookies. They will be met with either a pistol round (anywhere from .38 to .357, 9mm to .45 acp), 00 Buck round, or a ballistic tip round out of my M4. More than likely, they will meet more than one.

June 8, 2006, 10:30 AM	#1
revinkevin Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Posts: 39	question about "less lethal rounds" well seeing as in california you cant shoot someone entering your home unless they are running at you with a knife or pointing a gun at you. i was condsidering getting some less lethal rounds, to have in the event a burgler comes into my house.( ive seen people get shot with the bean bag rounds police use and they go down and stay down.) has anyone done any testing with these or know anything about them? for example range, damage done ect? ive seen rubber ball (like a slug) and rubber buckshot. any input? i was planning on having some real buckshot sitting right next to it incase things get out of hand. __________________ "*Dont sweat the petty, Pet the sweaty*"

June 8, 2006, 05:35 PM	#5
Bender711 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 340	If you just look at the name "less lethal" to me that means that its less effective. Now if they would make "more lethal" ammo then you would have something. __________________ From a Mod "Seeing as how "butt Smurf" is not profanity in the usual sense and humorously creative, I'll leave this up for now"

June 8, 2006, 06:28 PM	#6
Rimrod Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Behind enemy lines Posts: 1,309	"...unless they are running at you with a knife..." Buy a knife. __________________ "... he held his gun as almost every man skilled in such matters preferred to hold one when in action, with a half bent elbow that brought the gun slightly in front of his body at about, or slightly above, the level of the waist." - Wyatt Earp from Wyatt Earp Frontier Marshall by Stuart N. Lake

June 8, 2006, 09:08 PM	#8
revinkevin Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Posts: 39	okay real slugs and buck shot it is! many good points i failed to realize! __________________ "*Dont sweat the petty, Pet the sweaty*"

June 8, 2006, 10:49 PM	#10
Savage10FP308 Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Location: I live in Southern Illinois. Posts: 422	I agree with the long list of info mostly... but saying less-lethal ammo fails most of the time is a blanket statement and like most blanket statements it just happens to be false. Back it up with some facts. Until then I will have to disagree. I wouldn't use that ammo as my home defense ammo. Stick with the 00 Buckshot!

June 8, 2006, 02:08 PM	#2
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	If someone is in your home, things are already "out of hand". From an old post about "less lethal" ammo: ==================================== Do some searches on the gun forums, including this one and you'll get some good info. The bottom line on "Less lethal" ammo is simply this: Use by citizens for home defense is both suicidal and stupid. First, less lethal is for use ONLY by the police in situations were they are fully covered and backed up by other police armed with LETHAL ammo, and in situations where they think they can take the risk. Less lethal ammo FAILS in many or even most cases. Second, is the legal situation. Bottom line, the law is very definite: If you fire a gun at someone, it doesn't matter if the load is buckshot or cotton balls. You have fired a deadly weapon at a human. If the situation is serious enough to warrant firing a weapon, it doesn't matter if that person lives or dies, legally. What all this comes down to is this. 1. Using "less lethal" ammo is suicidally dangerous for an home owner, due to the high possibility it will fail to stop or deter the bad guy. 2. Firing less lethal ammo at a person IS deadly force according to the law. Attempting to "deter" someone in a situation where you don't think lethal ammo is warranted will see YOU charged with felony crimes. 3. NEVER, EVER, NEVER base or plan your defense on being able to fire more then ONE shot. In the "real world" you're lucky to get one shot, and that shot had better be an effective one. Imagine a situation where you've just fired a less lethal round in your living room at 3:00 am, and it FAILS. Bad things happen in the real world. Your gun jams, the next round fails to fire, the bad guy gets off a lucky shot, you stumble, whatever. You now have an ANGRY armed intruder in your face, and HE isn't going to be firing a less lethal round to give YOU a break. To quote famous Border Patrolman Bill Jordon: "Like being just a LITTLE pregnant, there's no such thing as shooting a human being "just a little". If you have to shoot someone, shoot them GOOD". Less lethal ammo is NOT for use by citizens who aren't backed up by other people with lethal ammo covering them. Less lethal is only "LESS" lethal. It can and will kill, and is legally considered to be no different than a Magnum load of buckshot. Trying to NOT shoot someone by shooting them with less lethal ammo is legally wrong and can get you charged and sued. Planning on firing a less lethal round, THEN planning on being able to fire lethal rounds if the first fails, is suicidally foolish. Trying to "give a break" to a person insane enough or violent enough to invade your very HOME is itself insane. Anyone invading your home or confronting a person armed with a shotgun is NOT normal. Is it your intention to put your life and the lives of your family in the hands of an insane, abnormal person?

June 8, 2006, 02:12 PM	#3
jhgreasemonkey Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 2,238	I agree. A close friend of mine works in the prison and in some cases the non lethal crap just pisses a guy off who's 2 times your size and crazy. At home you wont have 10 other guys to back you up if it doesnt work.

June 8, 2006, 05:22 PM	#4
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	Depending on what you use, some of it will kill if used within 30 feet of the bad guy. Also, some of it (like some of the rubber buckshot) is designed to be bounced off the ground into a rioter's legs, not fired into the bad guys chest.

June 8, 2006, 06:34 PM	#7
JNewell Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2000 Posts: 1,092	Deadly force is deadly force and less lethal is still deadly force, I'll bet, especially in states like California. Google Victoria Snellgrove Boston Police and see what can happen with "less lethal" munitions. If the situation is bad enough to warrant producing and using a gun, it's bad enough to permit you to use deadly force to defend yourself. If it isn't, forget the gun.

June 9, 2006, 12:20 AM	#12
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	I have posted on this subject before, so I am going to make it brief. "Beanbag rounds" can be lethal. I have personally seen some of the autopsy photos. Sometimes the bag just stays in a tight ball. Sometimes the side of the bag strikes the target and the teflon thread used to sew it together penetrates. I saw one picture of a guy wearing a big medalion (sp ?): big thing on a chain around his neck. Anyway, the beanbag hit that and drove it clear through his chest. That's a big hole. A guy in my Gunsite shotgun class worked for LAPD and he accidently blinded someone with a beanbag round. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

June 9, 2006, 11:20 AM	#13
CaCrusin Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2004 Location: Paso Robles, CA Posts: 115	This thread started with a faulty premise...That in California you can only use lethal force in your home if you are immediately confronting your assailant. The California legislature passed the "Man's Home is His Castle" laws a decade ago which protect a homeowner from prosecution, both criminal and civil, for using deadly force in defending his/her home from an intruder. It is true that you can not legally shoot an retreating thief, but you can and should shoot a retreating criminal who has commited a crime of violence in your home and is fleeing, with the potential to commit other violent crimes against persons. __________________ Ca Crusin _________________________ SI VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM _________________________ www.knoxx.com

June 9, 2006, 03:59 PM	#14
Savage10FP308 Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Location: I live in Southern Illinois. Posts: 422	akr... in the hands of properly trained law enforcement, less lethal rounds do their job. As someone already pointed out, that is really the only time they should be used. Im the case of protecting my family and myself I would not choose a less lethal round. If someone is attacking you in your own home, you have the right to choose lethal force.

June 9, 2006, 08:40 PM	#16
revinkevin Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Posts: 39	thanks for clearing that up Ca Crusin! __________________ "*Dont sweat the petty, Pet the sweaty*"

June 9, 2006, 08:50 PM	#17
pointman131 Member Join Date: February 14, 2006 Posts: 19	I have alot of experience with less lethal rounds. Beanbags work fine, when you have the luxury of being able to take your time and aim. The OC rounds used in Boston also work fine, if they strike where intended. The weapon used there was manufactured by FN, and is CO2 powered. Not unlike a paintball marker. But, the rounds are HARD plastic, and it is traveling at an average of 375 fps. We have one, and shot a 4"x4" treated post with one at the range. Nearly 1/2" penitration. If my memory serves me correctly, the round in Boston struck the lady in or around the eye socket and took the path of least resistance, thus tumbling through the eye partially penetrating the frontal lobe of the brain. Beanbag rounds are capable of doing the same thing if they fail to "unroll" during flight. Just imagine this, take a one ounce slug and crumble it up. Then wrap it with what is very much like burlap somewhat tightly, then sew a tail on it. That is what you have with a beanbag round, again, moving at around 350 fps. Can be devastatingly painful if it strikes one of the soft areas of flesh. But then again, if you take the time to make a good shot. If you are defending your home, I doubt you will have that time. As for home protection, if someone comes in after hours, they are not there to sell girl scout cookies. They will be met with either a pistol round (anywhere from .38 to .357, 9mm to .45 acp), 00 Buck round, or a ballistic tip round out of my M4. More than likely, they will meet more than one.