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Old October 14, 2011, 06:55 PM   #151
Catchabullet
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i like how none of you Beretta fans addressed the videos i posted
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Old October 14, 2011, 07:38 PM   #152
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Quote:
Catchabullet wrote:

i like how none of you Beretta fans addressed the videos i posted
I found them both interesting and entertaining but far from empirical.

Thx for posting them by the way.

-Cheers
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Old October 14, 2011, 09:44 PM   #153
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Watched the videos. Based on this test, I think, had I dropped my Beretta in the muck, and had to pick it up and fight with it, I STILL might have won the fight. Although this shooter struggled a bit to get the shots off, he still managed to fire enough rounds to possibly save himself. Considering the Beretta has some close tolerances, I thought it did o.k. Flawless, no, but then neither was the 1911.....................
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Old October 19, 2011, 07:09 PM   #154
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The real answer to this question

Shooters:
The most powerful handgun in the world is the one that's in your face, business end first.

Live well, be safe
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Old October 19, 2011, 08:08 PM   #155
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Glock 17 or TT-33, and I would bet on any pistols that have seen extensive service to allow the manufacturer to improve on the design, GRANTED they didn't go cheap with the materials.

my worn beretta 92 still runs like a champ and its been ummm...35years. Time to change out the springs before the slide flies in my face
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Old October 20, 2011, 08:16 AM   #156
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I'm surprised at how many folks here think revolvers are rugged.

Most revolvers are much more fragile than most autoloaders.
You can take just about any autoloader and drop if from the roof-top, or throw it against a brick wall, and it will still work just fine.
But even a single drop to a revolver can screw up the timing of the cylinder.

The main reason that every military around the world switched to autoloaders is because autoloaders are more rugged and can take much more abuse than a revolver can.
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Old October 20, 2011, 09:17 AM   #157
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Quote:
Most revolvers are much more fragile than most autoloaders.
You can take just about any autoloader and drop if from the roof-top, or throw it against a brick wall, and it will still work just fine.
But even a single drop to a revolver can screw up the timing of the cylinder.
maybe some revolvers are but I'm pretty sure I could beat any auto's slide into a useless pile using a Super redhawk as a hammer without affecting the function of the SRH.
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Old October 20, 2011, 02:50 PM   #158
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maybe some revolvers are but I'm pretty sure I could beat any auto's slide into a useless pile using a Super redhawk as a hammer without affecting the function of the SRH.
I have no clue if this is true but I'm still laughing at the image in my head from this post.

I can just see john wayne smashing a 1911 with revolver hammer style. Amazing
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Old October 20, 2011, 05:25 PM   #159
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Some of you guys have some great contenders for the most rugged handgun, but there really is no debate here- its the HK Mark 23 Mod 0 Socom.
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Old October 21, 2011, 01:41 PM   #160
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How can you say there is no debate here?
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Old October 21, 2011, 04:20 PM   #161
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There will be a time when all guns will transition to electronic nannies. Hk will be the first to go, the germans always have a little difficulty with them Walther will follow Hk. Then everyone will flock to korth for being old school. It has happened with cars, it has happened with cameras, wont be long before guns follow
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Old October 21, 2011, 05:53 PM   #162
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Sig P220 or 1911... - tough as nails...
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Old October 21, 2011, 08:50 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpsdressed Man View Post
How can you say there is no debate here?
I guess sometimes we don't want to admit the truth, even if it's right in front of us...








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Old October 21, 2011, 08:52 PM   #164
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Ruger Redhawk 44 magnum all the way!
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Old October 23, 2011, 01:07 AM   #165
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hmm

i didn't mean it to sound dogmatic, but was just bringing this to everyone's attention. In my experience, ( i work at a shooting range...not saying where but, we have many rental guns that people can only use factory ammo which we sell....) the Beretta went down due to a pressure crack on the frame while the rest of the guns we have for rent, that are shot just as much... work properly.while, with the 1911s(kimber and springfield, springfield not being the best by any means), only things that go wrong(that I've seen, after thousands and thousands of rounds mind you.) are the slide catch (just a quick replace.), recoil spring, magazine springs, and being too dirty. all of those are expected except for maybe the slide catch.

on another note, what if theres more than one enemy that you have to address? which i feel would happen a lot in the military... those two rounds won't do it. although most people wouldn't throw their gun into muck..just sayin, keep the debate friendly if any new comers are just chiming in.

ps. excuse my bad grammar, posting from my cell...
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Old October 23, 2011, 01:10 AM   #166
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btw

I've seen a quite few revolvers fail with their timing out of no where.
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Old October 23, 2011, 03:10 AM   #167
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Ok im going to catch it for this one. Hands down it would be a High Point. Ya i know there ugly,heavy and UGLY HEAVY. They have not been out that long ,but there is no other pistol that so many have tried to destroy a mulitude of ways and have not been able to do it. This pistol is butt ugly and heavy ,but bottom line is no matter what you do to it when you pull the trigger there is a 1000% chance that it is going to go bang. It's like the GEO Metro.The body will rust and fall off it,but turn the key and the darn thing will start and go. If i had to choose a pistol that was going to get--Run over,dragged in the mud,sank to the bottom of a lake,plugged with debris,have sand all over inside it and wanted it to fire--HIgh Point--here i come. Argue all you want people,,but you know as well as me--It;s True
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Old October 23, 2011, 07:22 AM   #168
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Quote:
4runnerman

Ok im going to catch it for this one. Hands down it would be a High Point...
I assume you are seriousso I will bite. They are irrefutably very rugged from a 'Oh no I dropped it on the concrete' perspective. Check out that torture test on Youtube to be sure. It's a tank. That being said, I would also like to see a several thousand rounds fired torture test as well. As many others have said, for the price, the HP cannot be beaten and it's MADE in the USA!

-Cheers
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Old October 23, 2011, 07:25 AM   #169
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Quote:
Catchabullet

...i the Beretta went down due to a pressure crack on the frame while the rest of the guns we have for rent, that are shot just as much... work properly...
This has been covered time and time again. The previous generation of the M9's had the aforementioned problem. The new line since has long been adjusted to correct this flaw. That was years ago.

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Old October 23, 2011, 02:33 PM   #170
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I haven't seen a Beretta fail to fire from a cracked frame yet. I have seen a LOT of guns with cracked frames that just kept running. A cracked frame is not NECESSARILY a problem that disables a gun.
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Old October 23, 2011, 04:00 PM   #171
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Though I don't care for it: the HK Mk23. The HK45/USP45, the P30/USP9 and 9mm Glocks (overlooking the latest faux pas wih the Gen4).

Pick one...
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Old October 23, 2011, 05:36 PM   #172
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m9 greatness

I don't want to offend anyone but the m9 was not the recommendation of the military test commitee who chose our new sidearm...the sig 226 was the weapon that they recommended....but the pentagon went with the m9 because it was a few dollars cheaper per unit....i met one of the officers involved with the test at a gun show in Tampa,Fl and this info came from him...but what do you expect....our government has a long history of supplying our troops with the lowest bidder!
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Old October 23, 2011, 05:50 PM   #173
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pt-92 I assume you are seriousso I will bite. They are irrefutably very rugged from a 'Oh no I dropped it on the concrete' perspective

PT-92-- Yes i am serious. Don't even go there.When it comes down to nothing more than abuse and torture,no one can do what High Point does. I don't own one,never will own one and think they are butt ugly. But that don't change the fact that when it comes to pure abuse the High Point can take it and come out working. As for round count, A friend i work with has one in a 45 ACP. 4 of us went out one day and put over 1000 rounds that day alone down it,,no issues at all. I was very much suprised at how accurate it shot also. They are ugly and heavy,,but very very dependable indeed.
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Old October 23, 2011, 07:35 PM   #174
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I don't want to offend anyone but the m9 was not the recommendation of the military test commitee who chose our new sidearm...the sig 226 was the weapon that they recommended....but the pentagon went with the m9 because it was a few dollars cheaper per unit...
Wrong. Both passed the trials. As posted earlier: Sig was initially ahead with a lower overall price than Beretta, but Beretta ultimately submitted an at-cost bid and edged Sig. Beretta's lead in the military's scoring system was not much smaller than Sig's initial lead, despite Beretta's cost advantage being only one-third that of Sig's initial cost advantage. Accordingly, it's not accurate to say that money was the sole factor.

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The second is in the discussion, but the first most definitely is not.
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Old October 23, 2011, 10:04 PM   #175
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A story....

Guys, read this. This brings a window into the past that ties the beretta mk23, sig 92, and hk 226. If you dont believe it at least its a good read. Enjoy! Ps there is no CZ in this story

Quote from the HK forums
------------------------------------------------

Here is the post by Frogman, as copied from 9999's post.

--------------------
You can’t really tell the Mk 23 story without telling parts of the Beretta and SIG story, as well. The Beretta 92F was largely the result of a specific SEAL Team urging Beretta to modify a few things with the standard 92 for the unit’s use. Things like moving the magazine release from the butt to the frame, re-shaping the trigger guard…etc. This particular SEAL Team had Beretta 92F’s before the U.S. military ever went to the “M9”. During the testing for the new U.S. standard issue sidearm SIG actually slightly outperformed the Beretta. I was told that it wasn’t chosen because Beretta slightly beat the price point over SIG. The real answer is probably a bit more complicated than that, but Beretta did eventually win . The trials lasted a long time during which life went on in the Teams…until Berettas starting failing in the SEAL Teams. I remember those days well. The Teams had a lot of loyalty to the pistol, but all of that ended when Beretta publicly accused the Teams of routinely firing “hot” ammo through the guns. Not a true statement. The Teams dropped the Beretta and were authorized to purchase an “interim” handgun to fill the bill until the ink was dry on the government standard sidearm contract. The Teams bought SIGs and began a loyalty o that system which persists even still.

It wasn’t too long before Army SOF began to sour on the Beretta. Their problem was that they already had M1911A1’s on their TOA&E. The military being what it is, you can only have one caliber of a particular type of like equipment. Army SOF began to work the issue by conceptualizing an “Offensive Handgun” different in definition and .45 ACP. This was just post Desert Storm. SEAL SIGs had been in inventory for 2-3 years and folks were starting to recall that the P226 was only an “interim” buy. Someone was caught using improper justification for a second purchase of SIGs by Congress. During the dust-up which followed Army SOF approached Navy SOF through Crane with the “Offensive Handgun” concept. The Navy could take the lead on the project and if it came off both the Army and Navy SOF would enjoy a new .45 cal handgun. The “Offensive Handgun” project felt the influences of many opinionated pistoleros. A long list of features was drawn up.

Eventually both Colt and HK submitted Phase One Prototypes for endurance testing. I was actually one of the SEALs who had to fire 30,000 rounds through a Colt and HK pistol over the course of a week in 1994 and document every failure. Not as fun as you might think.

We also took the revamped (Phase Two) prototypes to Rogers’ Shooting School for testing (that was fun) in early 1995. I and several other SEAL Team “bullet heads” went to the testing with malice in our hearts not only for the gun but the very concept of the gun. Our intent was to shoot it better than anyone else and then slam it in the critiques.

The gun grew on us haters. That simple. It was dead accurate, big- yes, but manageable. With a suppressor on it is unlike any other handgun.

It was finally issued around 1996 or so. I used it in winter warfare a lot, for over the beach work and diving. I preferred my SIG for assaults. Later in my career I did a lot more diving and over the beach work. The Mk 23 was awesome at that stuff. It is the best weapon to have in a hide site when lying up with a Team in a concealed position. You can bring it to bear day or night on anyone sneaking up on you. It is accurate even after blowing through your hide site material, the suppressor is pretty quiet and the LAM lets you get away with a lot. I used it and trained many other SEALs to use it very capably. The SEAL Teams that did not dive as much as, say, SDV Teams neglected their Mk 23’s. The Mk 23’s strengths were not as obvious to those guys who weren’t swimming and diving all the time. Last year a message came out to turn in all Mk 23’s to Crane. At least one SDV Team flatly refused. A few other Teams suddenly decided they should keep a “few”. So those at NAVSPECWARCOM who had sent the message in the first place restricted the expenditure of .45 ammo, instead. SDV Teams now have Mk 23s but no ammo allowance. They even ordered S&W 686’s from Crane to outfit their guys because a SIG will not survive a long dive very well. I know of a handful of guys who have taken their issue Mk 23’s overseas since the ammo cut-off because they know they can get the ammo there and have actually carried them in missions far from the water.

That’s the story in nutshell. What else would you like to know?

Frogman
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