Tackling Active Shooters as Self Defense

[Deaf Smith]

The trouble with opening fire at a rally to stop an active shooter is mainly the possibility of hitting innocents, by missing, over penetration, or by misidentification.

Add to that the possibility of someone else mistaking you for another active shooter and you see why there is hesitation to fire.

What to do? As they have shown many times if the active shooter is in the process of reloading that is the time to attack! And if you are not an excellent combat shot, then trying to engage such an active shooter in a crowded location with such as a J smith .38 snub, well that’s asking for big trouble.

If you can, take them down and disarm them. But like being an excellent shot, I strongly suggest you have some H2H skills so you can tackle and disarm such a shooter.

Deaf

[sakeneko]

I'd probably try to tackle a shooter in preference to playing dead, but not in preference to any other viable response. Since I'm usually both armed with my carry gun and carrying pepper spray and a tactical bright flashlight, I'd usually have better options than pretending I'm a football linesman. About all I can say in favor of me tackling a shooter is that I'm big enough to block his shots at other people at least briefly. (wry grin) The problem with that is that I'd be drawing fire, and not likely to live through it if the shooter is competent. All things considered, I'd rather live.

However, if living isn't an option, I think that I'd choose to go out fighting.

[Double Naught Spy]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/09/18/...ss_igoogle_cnn
http://lakeland.wtsp.com/news/news/8...hurch-shooting
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/flor...rs-tackle-him/
Parishioners tackled the shooter of a pastor and assistant pastor at a Florida church and the same shooter may have killed another person, his wife, at a residence before committing the church shootings.

[stonewall50]

Tackling an active shooter? I ain't Hussein Bolt...so there is little chance I am going to have the speed to actually take someone down from anything outside of what would be considered h2h distance anyway. If he is inside of 6 feet and I have the drop and I am not carrying I am going to use WHATEVER is at my disposal to kill him, pocket knife, pen, bottle, or simply hoping I can get the gun out of his hands and use my Jiu Jitsu to get to any form of hold I can.

This ACTUALLY brings another discussion that I think I will start another thread about WHEN to draw your weapon. I think it will be a similar answer to this one: one do YOU deem it the right time to strike? But I digress to the tackling.

If I am FORCED to take on an active shooter and he is trying to execute me or he is within ANY form of distance that I can actually consider an attemptable distance I am going to do my best to kill him or disable him to an extent that he CANNOT physically fight back...because if he is still capable of moving he will probably try to harm someone else.

[ShaulWolf]

This was a scenario that one of the Gunnery Sgts asked us during martial arts training. There's a guy popping off rounds at people while you're on leave. You're not close enough to hit him without running at him. What do you do?

Most of us said take cover and wait until he reloads to take him to the ground. A few other said take cover and wait until he reloads before drawing their own weapon and firing when there aren't any incoming rounds. We all pretty much had the agreement that acting when there are rounds coming at you isn't smart, and to wait until an advantage comes up, like them stopping to reload.

Not everyone has martial arts training or a concealed weapon, but knowing when to act and then following through seems to make a huge difference in stopping or delaying an attacker enough for someone else to stop them.

[Double Naught Spy]

Tackling an active shooter? I ain't Hussein Bolt...so there is little chance I am going to have the speed to actually take someone down from anything outside of what would be considered h2h distance anyway.

Funny how many people aren't Hussein Bolt and who stop shooters by tackling them. Funny how so many have no real training in such matters. Funny how many people inside of H2H distance don't do anything to stop the shooter. Funny how sometimes people outside of H2H have to work to get to the shooter to stop him/her.

You don't have to be Hussein Bolt to make a difference, but you need to be smart about your actions.

[BlackFeather]

The idea that you have to tackle an armed person has always been in my head. As I've mentioned a lot, I don't carry a firearm, so shooting back isn't an option in any case. So, within a range of 10 feet I am fairly confident, I train that way. I don't doubt my death would be at that moment, but at such a range you don't have time to wait for them to stop shooting. At a mid range from 15 to 25 feet there's still more of a chance for being shot and less of a chance you will be able to wait until they stop firing. Any distance after that you are less likely to be shot and have a better chance of waiting for a reload.

This is simply my observation, don't take my word on it. As a variable, you could have between 15 and 50 other people in the room. The more there are, the better and worse it may be. Swarms of fish confuse predators and make it more difficult to focus on one. However, more people could mean more casualties. When to act may be decided on time and distance, but it will always be more influenced by who else/how many people is/are in the room.

That being said, I would go for the weapon shoulder as any natural reaction is a predictable retreat back and this helps the tackle. After that, the shoulder controls the arm. Being sure to have the arm locked out to the best of your abilities is a plus, as you may get shot still, however controlling the arm on the ground is where you can have control of the gun. As for a rifle you have the same idea. They have the ability to hold on with both hands however, so effort must be made on the firing hand not the support hand. If you have a knife use it. I prefer to make a thrust during the tackle, that way some damage is done if I don't accomplish to disarm them. Distractions as were mentioned are a plus, but more so if you aren't doing it.

Those are my observations and opinions. I am definitely NOT going to do nothing. I haven't lived long enough.

[TXGunNut]

I don't think Mr Donston ever got his answer, I'll take a stab at it. Police training is focused on stopping attackers, not killing them. Not every deadly force situation has a deadly force solution. A police officer will know that every person with a gun is not necessarily an attacker and will not shoot every armed person he encounters.
A few thoughts on charging: have you ever tried to engage and shoot a rapidly advancing target? A charging target that presents a threat is remarkably hard to hit. Handgun bullet wounds are often survivable with the right mindset and immediate medical care. Another thought, wouldn't it be nice if two or three folks got the idea to charge a shooter at the same time? It happens, and sometimes it works quite well.

[secret_agent_man]

Without reading this thread completely, I submit there aren't many armchair quarterbacks who desire to be tackles.

[Double Naught Spy]

Too bad you didn't read completely, then maybe your comprehension would be better.

[raimius]

Tackle? I stink at tackles.
If I had an opening, I'd take a stab at it...or a strike with a metal flashlight (or some basic strikes/grapple moves, as a less than attractive option).

[secret_agent_man]

maybe your comprehension would be better

Well, I read the thread, and this is my conclusion about tacking. I've probably prevented three armed robberies about to take place in a Kentucky Fried Chicken, a gun store and a stop-n-rob convenience store. Also an assault from the rear in a WalMart restroom. I say probably because all four potential incidents never actually went down, so I have to qualify my statement.

In all cases, the mere perception I had a gun or was otherwise about to interfere (telephone) was sufficient to back the suspects down.

A tackle in any of the above would have proven disastrous, as all three of the possible robbery attempts involved multiple perps. But stay on your feet, and for them it comes down to who wants to get shot first or still be around when the cops roll up.

[TXGunNut]

I played football as a kid and as a young & dumb LEO I put my tackling skills to good use more than a few times on unarmed suspects. I was bigger than some pro linemen and when I hit someone, they stayed down, fight over. On occasion I'd apply a choke hold on the way down and he'd wake up in handcuffs. Those were the days.
And no, a weapon wouldn't have made a difference in tactics or outcome in most cases.

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, I read the thread, and this is my conclusion about tacking. I've probably prevented three armed robberies about to take place in a Kentucky Fried Chicken, a gun store and a stop-n-rob convenience store. Also an assault from the rear in a WalMart restroom. I say probably because all four potential incidents never actually went down, so I have to qualify my statement.

Okay, so what you are saying is that you read the whole thread, finally, and still completely missed the points being made. Shooting isn't always an option and is no option if you don't have a gun. So what are you going to do if you aren't armed or can't use your gun if you find yourself in an active shooter situation? By active shooter, I am not talking about your unrelated stories of stopping robberies that never occurred. Those were not active shooter events and hence are in no way related to the thread.

Just because you are unarmed or can't use your gun should not mean that you are defenseless or helpless, though being defenseless and helpless is how many CCW folks describe themselves on forums like TFL when they talk about being unarmed. There are options, all sorts, and if you want to take an active roll in stopping the shooter, tackling is an option that is often used successfully. It is done at great peril, no doubt, but chances are the folks in the situation where the active shooter is killing people are already in great peril.

[Mobuck]

The best time for the physical defense is BEFORE the first shot. Before the shooter works up to actually shooting there's some indecision and possibly some confusion that can allow a successful physical attack. A physical attack from multiple points will often confuse an inexerienced shooter allowing contact to be made.

[BlackFeather]

Originally Posted by mobuck

The best time for the physical defense is BEFORE the first shot. Before the shooter works up to actually shooting there's some indecision and possibly some confusion that can allow a successful physical attack. A physical attack from multiple points will often confuse an inexerienced shooter allowing contact to be made.

Sure, that is the ideal time to stop them, but that option is rarely apparent in social situations. Unless you catch them reaching for a gun, (or wallet, or handkerchief, or keys, or smokes, or nose picker), you aren't going to stop them preemptively. And of course, planning for the worst situation may be a fantasy as much as expecting the best situation, but as long as you're sticking to a general plan you are better off.

Personally, I don't think enough people practice to respond to the sound of a gun shot and people yelling and panicking.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Unless you have a trained unit, you really can't expect a bunch of folks to jump up and charge under fire in some organized fashion. Yes, that's a nice internet fantasy but it's not going to happen.

Also, having studied this - the shooter can pick a spot that is a fatal funnel choke point and immediately open up. Yeah, maybe they are going to make a speech first but maybe not.

[Double Naught Spy]

Glenn, that is correct, but nobody is suggesting that we expect people to operate as a trained unit. Heck, even as armed folks, the majority of the gun community cannot even respond as trained individuals with their firearms, in part because of their lack of training. So no, you can't expect a group of people to respond as a trained unit or in any sort of coordinated fashion, yet there have been numerous instances of multiple folks responding simultaneously where such sequential or en masse hits have resulted in a cessation of firing. In other cases, it has only taken a single individual to effect a tackle that resulted in the cessation of firing.

Numerous active shooters do not pick fatal funnels. In fact, many don't seem to have much of a plan beyond shooting people. Many are out in the open or in a confined space for which they cannot control their surroundings.

The best time for the physical defense is BEFORE the first shot. Before the shooter works up to actually shooting there's some indecision and possibly some confusion that can allow a successful physical attack.

The problem is, almost nobody ever spots the shooter before the shooting and are in a position to do anything about it in the time frame before the shooting starts.

[Mobuck]

I didn't say it was easy, I was actually meaning the time between the displaying of the weapon and the first shot. Some of the nuts have something to say leading up to the shooting or brandish their gun for a short period prior to the actual event-some don't. The threatening/brandishing period is when they're building up and could possibly be taken down. The pull it and shoot it ones would be hard to predict but the one thing they have in their mind is that everyone will run, hide, or fold. Something happening counter to what they expect might throw them off their premeditated plan.
While it would be unsettling to have a miss or pass through hitting an innocent, stopping the possibilty of a larger number of people dead or injured would seem to be preferable(minus the liability lawyers lining up like buzzards on a possum carcass).

[farmerboy]

I'n a situation where you may not have a gun, it's a loved one or someone elses life at stake. You may have to try anything, it may work out. It may not. As far as practicing rushing. You're wasting your time or on a pipe dream. Time spent better at the shooting range

[Alaska444]

The death rate from handguns is only 20% depending of course on the bullet placement, but in general, the FBI stats show an 80% survival.

Understanding that fact, playing dead while a weirdo walks up to you and puts a couple of bullets in your brain with exceedingly high mortality makes the option of going for a tackle a much better statistical chance. I hope I never have to put these stats to the test, but I believe I would be moving either away or towards the shooter depending on the situation.

I was actually surprised that the Fort Hood soldiers did not mount an attack in some manner against the Islamic terrorist now on trial. Besides tackling, there are objects you can throw as a distraction/weapon to help with the attack. Doing nothing and just letting the weirdo walk up to you and kill you is just not an option in my mind.

[farmerboy]

Used only as a last resort, Great but other than that you just may be a statistic. Got the same mind frame. At the end of my shift i plan on going home unless the Lord is ready for me to come home.

[Double Naught Spy]

I was actually surprised that the Fort Hood soldiers did not mount an attack in some manner against the Islamic terrorist now on trial.

Several did, but were unsuccessful.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/mil...ter-799272.php

Of course, not everyone with a gun who tries to save themselves or intervene on behalf of others is successful either.

[Mr. James]

Double Naught Spy,

Thank you for a thought-provoking thread. I've actually given this some thought, especially after the Tacoma Mall incident. Here's this humble pilgrim's take. I'm no warrior, no "operator," just an average guy. But I do know that confronted with this situation, I'm looking for an opportunity to rush the shooter. I played rugby here in the states for twenty years. So, I also know how to tackle.

Assuming I'm alone and not responsible for loved ones, I'm going after that bastard, and I'm going to try to break his spine (which won't happen, but hey, you have to have a target!). Once down, I'm going to dash his brains out on the floor. That failing, I'm going to gouge his eyes out and beat him until he desists. Or I'll die or be maimed. There are worse things than that.

Bob James

[Alaska444]

Thanks DNS, great link. I guess that article gives the odds on success in this situation. Not good. Force on force like that, you need equal force to make it even. That makes the Ft Hood shooting even scarier when reading all those that tried to intervene but failed. One more example of why you need CCW in this nation.