Luger

[lordhedgwich]

If i wanted to buy a luger to shoot not "collect" it doesnt have to be matching or anything fancy i just want something to plink with either in 9mm or 32 acp what price should i be expecting to pay? and what are things i should look for in the gun

[kilimanjaro]

Get a Russian Capture, they are the best deal on Lugers, hands down. Look for good, clear markings, unpeened Waffenampts (3 eagles on frame), and as many matching parts as you can, as well as lack of pitting under a re-finish, no rust, decent bores, that kind of thing. 1938-1942 will be the most common years available, with better quality 1938-1941, and you will need to obtain spare parts, such as magazines, firing pins, springs, screws, etc., you can get them from a surplus dealer. Enjoy it, I have 3 Lugers, and shoot one of them regularly, it's a great pistol. For a plinker, expect to spend about $600 at a show or shop, maybe less if you can find a veteran or widow who wants to sell a bringback. Be sure to check it out for rarity before you shoot it, you may get something nice !

[RJay]

" to pllnk with either 9MM or 32 ACP " ???????????????

[lordhedgwich]

Rjay im not sure what you don't get. A Luger in 9mm or 32acp would be fine

[jonnyc]

1. There are no Lugers in .32 ACP.
2. Good luck finding a shootable Luger for less than $750-800.

[lordhedgwich]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=326553003

i know its not actually a luger but it is very similar and thats what i was talking about when i said 32 acp sorry for confusion

[James K]

That is not a real Luger; it is not even really a clone but a scaled down external copy made from zinc castings. There is some external resemblance to the Luger, no internal resemblance, and nowhere near the quality or collector interest of a "real" Luger. If you want a pistol in .32 ACP, there are many very good ones on the market, one being a new Walther PP or PPK, or many used guns.

If you want a Luger, buy a real Luger that will increase in value, not a cheap "lookalike" that is of no real interest to anyone.

Jim

[Jim Watson]

There were some prototype subcaliber Lugers. I recall the excitement over the first to be discovered, a .380, many years ago. I think there were .32s in the prototype programme, too.
You could have one for about the price of a house... if it ever came up for sale.

[lordhedgwich]

idk maybe idk know lugers but the 32 cal looks almost exactly like a luger... Like i said i wouldnt want a collector luger like i said just one i wouldnt feel bad talking to the range. Maybe i should just get one of those stoeger luger 22 cals i have seen around they are only like 300 bucks lol

[RJay]

TBICR, there were four 9MMk Lugers made by Mauser, Whereabouts of 2 are known, one in France and one in the US, last estimate of value was over a million each and that was 20 years ago. But relying on memory. If I wanted a gun to take to the range that would last more than a few boxes of ammo, I would buy neither the Erma nor Stoeger. There are no available source of parts for either, and neither have good durability reputations , especially the Stoeger. JMO, your money.

[James K]

Well, a Yugo "looks almost exactly like" a Rolls-Royce also, if you sort of squint and have never seen a Rolls-Royce. Believe me, that little Erma is not a Luger. If you buy it, I hope you are not disappointed, but you are determined to believe what you want to believe, so I will give up trying to convince you of the difference.

Jim

[lordhedgwich]

no need to get all snooty i dont know much about lugers thats why i was asking... and from what i have found out on the net there arnt much spare parts for "real" lugers anyway at least not cheap parts. I ask for your opinions and you guys kinda got rude not sure what happend there.. maybe i will just get a p-38 or p-1 better price and prolly a better gun all around

[RJay]

Now I hear the rattle of a chain being pulled.

[Winchester_73]

lordhedwich

Sorry that you feel some members here were snotty/rude to you. I don't think that they meant to be, they were just observing the old adage of "let me tell you a question" - if that means anything to you.

Once, I wanted a luger in the way you did. I wanted something moderately priced and for shooting. When I realized how good of an investment they can be, I decided to change gears and look for investment grade guns. As others have said, the modern copies you have found in assorted calibers are not the real thing. They are cheap copies (on outside) for people who don't want to pay for a Luger with some history. They are no different than some small company remaking say a hemi cuda, for say $30k, when a verifiable example is worth high 5 figures to 6 figures. They are attempting to cash in on the market of "I want a luger but I only have $300". IMO its not a good idea to consider those guns. They are junky, have a bad rep, and don't have any value if you ever go to sell one.

As far as my recommendation, I say look for a mismatched luger (such as a Russian capture). This way you get a real military example, with history, for a fair price, that you can shoot as much as you want. Lugers can be finicky with ammo, partly because of age and wear and partly because German 9mm ammo was hotter than most 9mm ammo we have today. You should be able to find a German military shooter grade luger for $600 to $900 that would fit your bill well. Be careful not to buy a 7.65 luger, because that ammo is fairly hard to find and expensive. You are most likely to find a Mauser (WWII) or a DWM (WWI) luger fits your price range, and the idea of a shooter. Other Luger makers include Erfurt, Simson and Suhl, and the Krieghoff. Those are much more money, even when mismatched. Some lugers bear import stamps, and often affordable as well.

i have found out on the net there arnt much spare parts for "real" lugers anyway at least not cheap parts.

Well anything from WWI or WWII is generally not going to be cheap when you think about it. There is a limited supply of that stuff, and of course, it can never be remade. Its either from that era, or its not. Parts for most older guns will be somewhat expensive. If you buy a luger that still works well, you should not need to replace any parts. Sometimes firing pins can break, as can extractors, and thats why I never shot any of mine. Most of my lugers are all matching and so I don't want to risk it.

maybe i will just get a p-38 or p-1 better price and prolly a better gun all around

I prefer P38s to P1s although P1s have their own history. Either would be a good shooting choice and both are affordable. Some P38s are expensive, but those are usually collector grade examples, and you already said you wanted a shooter. You could probably get a matching WWII original P38 for the same money as a shooter luger if you look around enough. I have bought non-import matching P38s in the last few years for as little as $400. As far as the P38/P1 being a better gun, well I would sure hope so, being that the design is some 30 years newer. And that is why the luger is such a neat gun in history, when it came out, most everyone else had revolvers. It was also a much better design than the semi autos before it (the C-93, C-96, Schonberger, etc).

TBICR, there were four 9MMk Lugers made by Mauser, Whereabouts of 2 are known, one in France and one in the US, last estimate of value was over a million each and that was 20 years ago.

If thats true, what is the 45 luger from the US 1907 pistol trials worth?

[lordhedgwich]

thanks winchester that was very helpful

[Pilot]

Lugers are very unique firearms. Either you want a Luger or you don't a P-38, or P-1 is not a Luger, nor does it have the interest and unique operating system. Again, if you want a Luger, get a Luger, don't "settle" for something else that will still leave you wanting.......a Luger.

Some others have said it, the best value in shooters are the Russian captures. I bought one of these in the mid 90's when they first came into the country. All the Nazi markings are in tact, and while it was re-blued, it looks like nothing else was done to it. The pistol has NEVER malfunctioned on my using a variety of cheap, bulk 9MM, and my reloads. It is also very accurate. I shoot mine regularly. Not every range session, but relatively often.

[Bob Wright]

Years ago a co-worker came into a Luger bringback his dad had brought back from WW II. This frend called me on the pnone one even ing and asked me about handling it. I told him, as best I could, how to load and fire a Luger. He was so anxious to shoot the gun he rushed out to a Walmart and bought a box of 9mm Luger and headed to the range.

Later that evening, he called me from the range, saying the ammo he bought would't fit.

Yep, his was one of those .30 Luger variants.

I never liked firing the Luger as that toggle link kept jumping up and interupting my sight picture when fired. Plus that awful recoil impulse inherant to auto pistols.

Bob Wright

[carguychris]

Since it hasn't really been explained thoroughly after the .32ACP confusion, I feel obligated to mention a few things about the cartridges that the original guns fire.

Be careful not to buy a 7.65 luger, because that ammo is fairly hard to find and expensive.

Webleymkv Winchester_73 is talking about the 7.65mm Parabellum cartridge, also known as the .30 Luger or 7.65 Luger. Although "30" implies that it's .30-caliber (0.308"), and "7.65" implies that it's .32-caliber (0.311"), it's actually neither; it roughly splits the difference at 0.309"-0.310" caliber. It's one of the few relatively common auto pistol cartridges that uses a bottleneck case, along with .357Sig and 7.62x25 Tokarev.

The 7.65 Parabellum round was the original cartridge used in the Luger pistol. However, the German military believed it was short on power, so DWM responded by straightening out the case walls, shortening the case slightly, and using a 9mm bullet. The German military accepted the larger-caliber round, and the rest, as they say, is history.

The original Luger pistols were NOT produced in .32ACP or .380ACP except for some exceedingly rare and valuable test variants, although one may occasionally hear someone incorrectly describe a 7.65mm example as a ".32"; see above.

Now to explain how this relates to the topic of "shooter" Lugers...

Despite the military's acceptance of the 9mm version, 7.65mm pistols continued to be produced, particularly once WWI ended and the Treaty of Versailles made it difficult for German industry to produce 9mm pistols. DWM quickly discovered that "new" 7.65mm Lugers could be built largely from reworked surplus wartime parts and then sold profitably on the commercial market. These factory-rebuilt guns are widely known as "1920 Commercials" and have relatively little collectible value due to large production numbers and an absence of military provenance.

IMHO a 1920 Commercial can also make a decent choice for a low-priced "shooter" IF one can deal with the ammo situation.

About the ammo... I'll have to disagree slightly with Webley Winchester here. 7.65 Parabellum ammo IS available, and prices isn't outrageous IMHO, although it IS a good deal higher than 9mm. If you mail-order it in quantity, it can be had for around $22-$25 per 50rd box. Also, although the number of "shooter" Lugers is probably declining, the round will most likely remain in production for the foreseeable future because it is a moderately popular 9mm substitute in world markets where pistols in "military" calibers are prohibited (e.g. Italy).

One potential issue is that AFAIK there are no JHP 7.65 Para loads on the market, but then I'd argue that this pistol would be a categorically poor choice for SD/HD anyway. (I prefer that my defensive firearms be readily replaceable.)

[James K]

Hi, lordhedgwich,

I apologize for what might seemed like rudeness; I really had your interests at heart. I was trying to keep you from making a mistake and buying that gun believing it is a genuine Luger and then finding it is not. If you want a pocket size gun with the outward appearance of a Luger, that gun will fill the bill, though they don't have a good reputation for reliability or durability.

But don't be misled into thinking it is what it is not.

Jim

[lordhedgwich]

its fine james you know how reading things on the internet can be Anyway i do want a good luger i just dont have the funds right now but i also want to get a p-1 or p38 before they start to dry up i haveent seen as much lately as i normally do

[BoogieMan]

@lordhedgwich- I would also love to find a nice quality shooter. Gunbroker is about my only chance. If your not in NJ at least you can hit the shows and maybe luck into something. FYI-if you ever find a 32acp you like I wouldnt consider it a shooter purely for the price of 32acp ammo. I had inhereted a Colt 1903 that my sister later grabbed up on, so I had it and lost it quickly.
Good luck on your search and I hope you dont bid against me.

[dansu]

All, just have to throw in my two cents worth for an old friend. The Stoeger "Luger" 22 has a bad rap I know, but, I've owned one for over 40 years and it is THE most accurate pistol I have and has never malfunctioned in well over 15,000 (probably far more) rounds. The others I have include Sig, S&W, Colt, Browning, FEG, Springfield and Taurus. I know, I know but I heard her crying "aren't you going to say ANYTHING good about me?" I love that thing and it IS cheap to shoot..... Hope all have a wonderful evening.

[James K]

The actual pistol in question is not a Stoeger Luger but an Erma. IMHO, the Stoeger is better than the Erma, but it resembles the "real" Luger even less.

The use of the Luger name by Stoeger and not by Erma came about in an interesting way. First, the pistol was never called the "Luger" in Europe; it was always called the Parabellum pistol. "Parabellum" was used by Deutsche Waffen-und Munitions Fabriken (DWM) as a tradename, based on the Latin phrase "si vis pacis para bellum" (if you want peace, be prepared for war). It was also their telegraph address, "Parabellum, Berlin."

Stoeger was the U.S. importer for the commercial pistol in the 1920's and, to keep a distinction between their new pistol sales and the imports of various surplus and reworked WWI pistols, trademarked the name "Luger". So legally, Stoeger and only Stoeger could use that name on or in advertising for a pistol in the U.S. So when they decided to have a pistol made to compete in the .22 caliber market, they had a "sort of" copy of the Luger made, and used that name on it.

Jim

[Winchester_73]

Webleymkv is talking about the 7.65mm Parabellum cartridge, also known as the .30 Luger or 7.65 Luger.

Well thats interesting that Webley said that in this thread, because if he did, he quoted me. I guess his post was inappropriate, because apparently the mods deleted his post which quoted me. Or maybe, you have mistaken me for someone who appreciates fugly Brit revolvers? I like pretty women, and I'm no different with revolvers - S&W and Colt.

About the ammo... I'll have to disagree slightly with Webley here. 7.65 Parabellum ammo IS available, and prices isn't outrageous IMHO,

As above, you are also disagreeing with me. There is no reason to assume that the OP is interested in handloading 7.65 luger. Buying ammo just for a vintage handgun that he may not even enjoy is not a good idea if the gun can be had in 9mm. Also consider resale value. 30 cal lugers are not as sought after, and bring less money, most of the time. The biggest reason not to buy a 30 cal aka 7.65 luger is because if the caliber was not good enough for the German army, it should not be good enough for you!

Here are my lugers which don't make it to the range, and for good reason. Top - DWM Dutch contract ca 1913 (I have original mag and holster, all matching), next is a DWM 1917 Navy Luger - mismatched safety, otherwise good. Navy lugers are targeted by counterfeiters because they are hard to find and somewhat simple to fake, although mine is the genuine article. Next is a police G date (1935), all matching including mag. Only approx 900 G date lugers were procurred for the Nazi police. Last, is a BYF 42 black widow, which is all matching, and a full rig as well. The top 3 are rare, and the 4th one, in a rig, is very sought after. All are non-import, and the safety lever is the only mismatched part on the 4 guns. Top two are DWM, and bottom two are Mauser. DWM tooling went to Mauser and the Erfurt tooling went to Simson and Suhl, and later to Heinrich Krieghoff.

[carguychris]

Well thats interesting that Webley said that in this thread, because if he did, he quoted me.

I got you two mixed up. Sorry, no offense intended.