Lead fouling

[Pat C]

Will you get lead fouling using lead bullets? How often do you clean your barrel and with what solvent?

[jwrowland77]

Depends on if you get the right size. That makes a huge difference. I also use a product called Pb Blocker, as well as powder coat my cast boolits.

Example, I size my 9mm boolits to .357. This give me the correct size for my barrel.


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[FITASC]

Velocity is also a factor with lead bullets.

[Chainsaw.]

Yes and no. Get Lymans cast bullet book and read the front section. Will teach you all you want to know and more.

https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bu.../dp/B004DWBKQY

[Nick_C_S]

Welcome to TFL Pat C.

Will you get lead fouling using lead bullets?

Yes. I have. I do. And I will.

How often do you clean your barrel and with what solvent?

After every shoot; and Hoppe's #9. And no, it doesn't get the lead out.

I've been loading/shooting a lot of lead for over 30 years. Here's where I am with it: For starters, I only use lead for 38 Special and 45 ACP. All other chamberings have proven to be highly problematic with barrel leading. So I just don't do it.

For 45 ACP, leading seems minimal. I have three 1911's. One is a Colt. And that barrel comes clean easily when leaded up - I have no idea why it's different than the others. Some things you don't question; you just appreciate. Might have something to do with the fact that the grooves seem really shallow and there's probably some 50K+ rounds through it - just a guess.

Shooting 38 Special is a little more problematic. I have multiple 38 Special and 357 Magnum guns. They all lead up when I shoot lead through them (I don't load 357 Mag with lead - only 38 Special) - especially the cylinder throats.

You're going to get a lot of posts that tell you that leading can be minimized (or eliminated) with proper bullet fit. They'll tell you to slug your barrel/throats and get the bullet the right size. I have never slugged any of my guns' bores/throats. But I have shot plenty of .357, .358, & .359 sized bullets - all with the exact same effect.

You're going to get a lot of posts that tell you that leading can be minimized (or eliminated) by using the proper hardness of lead for your application. I have shot lead hardnesses BHN-10 through 18 - all with nearly the same effect.

With the tens of thousands of rounds of various size/hardness/application combinations I have have tried, I would think that just by chance, I would have gotten it right at least once. Nope. When I shoot lead; I get leading - period.

So what do I do? The same thing I've been doing since the mid-eighties - shoot a few plated/jacketed bullets after so many lead bullets (generally 30 or so). Then finish the day with quite a few more. When I get home and clean my guns, it's a snap. Problem solved.

Right now, I just happen to have a Smith model 67 (38 Special) that the last time at the range, I put 42 lead rounds through it without any plated/jacketed. Guess what? After cleaning, there is still some lead build up at the barrel breech (and in the throats). The round fired was a .359 sized, BHN-18 bullet. 2.7 grains Bullseye; running about 730 f/s velocity. Anyway, next time out, I'll get it cleaned up with a few plated or jacketed bullets

[T. O'Heir]

Velocity is really the only factor with lead bullets. Driving cast bullets too fast is what causes leading.
Isn't a big deal if you use cast bullet data. No jacketed data at all.
I've used nothing but cast bullets for eons. .38, .45 and 9mm with no fuss. Regular cleaning tools and solvents. Nothing special is required.

[mikld]

Yes you can get lead fouling shooting lead bullets. But, it is easily avoided. Size the lead bullets to fit the gun and 99% of leading will not happen. Tons of info (search here) on proper size of lead bullet for the gun used. For answers to anything cast bullet related check this forum; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forum.php

I have been able to fire wheel weight alloy, air cooled, 160 gr. SWC bullets in my .357 Magnum to guesstimated 1,300+ fps (slightly over max. load of True Blue, a faux pax on my part) , with no barrel leading. The key is the bullets fit the gun. I sized the bullers to the same diameter as the cylinder throats, and used good lube.

[jetinteriorguy]

What MIKLD said.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by jwrowland77

Depends on if you get the right size. That makes a huge difference. I also use a product called Pb Blocker, as well as powder coat my cast boolits.

Example, I size my 9mm boolits to .357. This give me the correct size for my barrel.


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Interesting you mentioned pb blocker. I read some very negative reviews on some fora posted at least 5 years back, and then nobody has ever mentioned that again since. Could you share your experience with the product as a real user? Thanks.

-TL

[jwrowland77]

Originally Posted by tangolima

Interesting you mentioned pb blocker. I read some very negative reviews on some fora posted at least 5 years back, and then nobody has ever mentioned that again since. Could you share your experience with the product as a real user? Thanks.

-TL

Well, before I started powder coating my bullets (and no, I didn't start powder coating because of anything negative with Pb Blocker. Mainly just for the experience), I used Pb Blocker and sized my bullets correctly, and literally would just have minor traces of lead. When I did get leading, it came out super easy.

I use it on my 9mm, .380 and .30-30. Haven't had any negative issues with it. You just simply warm the barrels up, apply liberally, let it dry 24 hours and you're good.

A buddy of mine did some testing years back and posted it out there. His name is Jim Fleming, he's not associated with them at all and did an independent testing of the product. He swears by the stuff.


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[tangolima]

Thanks. I did buy a bottle of it, but the negative reviews have kept me from trying it.

I forgot which forum it was; one of the big ones on cast bullets, and might have been here. The guy from the company was giving out free samples. A handful of forum members signed up and did tests on the product. They all claimed leading was way worse than not using it. So bad they demanded method to rid of the stuff from their barrels. Needless to say they were very angry. The guy giving out samples finally disappeared.

I may still be able to find the thread. Not that I don't believe you and your friend, I am just trying to gain confidence. Perhaps the disaster was when they first introduced the product, and they may have tweaked the formula. But funny thing is impartial reviews since those exchanges almost don't exist, negative or positive.

-TL

[Hammerhead]

Never tried PB Blocker, but Lee Liquid alox prevents leading pretty darn well.

But it's now easier to buy coated or plated lead bullets. (I prefer coated in autos and plated in revolvers)

[Unclenick]

Pat C,

You always get a little leading with standard lubricated lead bullets. Many say the new powder coating approach stops it, but I've been so busy I've had some of the powder sitting on a shelf for two years until I get time to try it, and still haven't.

I've fired up to 3000 rounds of lubricated lead bullets through my 45 Auto and it got a little leading at the throat early on, but it then stopped growing. This is largely because that bore is almost glass smooth.

At the other extreme, I have a couple of revolver barrels so rough that they lead to the point accuracy is deteriorated. These have to be cleaned of lead.

Though it has been done for generations, at this point in time I recommend against the practice of firing jacketed bullets after lead to clean a bore. Gun makers recommend against it. They have measured the pressure increase that results and a few destroyed guns have been documented. It's rare and not a huge risk, but one not worth taking when you can avoid it altogether. I've proven to may own satisfaction that the lead is merely spread out and burnished by the jacketed bullet and not scraped off or removed. This leaves the whole bore smaller in diameter than it originally was, raising pressure. The burnishing action flows the lead like thick grease, raising pressure for the jacketed load even more.

Revolvers have the added issue that many have throats as small or smaller than the groove diameter of their barrels. This can cause a great deal of leading by gas cutting. Revolvers also commonly have bore constrictions where the barrel screws into the frame. This has the same effect as the small throats. It makes the bullet too small for the rest of the bore and bypassing gases cut the lead and splatter it onto the bore.

The idea that shooting softer bullets will alleviate leading is based on the soft bullet being upset by gas pressure enough to go back out to bore size after passing through a tight spot. When Joe Brennan's book was still hosted by the LASC site, one of the contributing authors said he found this worked, but only after getting the bore smooth. He had a regimen of using a bore mop to coat the bore of a revolver with JB Bore paste and shooting a light cast bullet loads through it, then repeating, I think a couple hundred time, but I've forgotten the amount. The end effect was to polish the bore surface. He said the soft bullet cure didn't work before doing that but that it did work afterward. He still had a constriction (JB can't remove much material) but the bullet bump-up post constriction seemed to work once it was polished.

Personally, I prefer firelapping to that JB method for this kind of thing. You can search the forum on that subject, but I can verify that both leading and copper fouling build-up can be greatly reduced by smoothing the bore.

Other methods of removing lead are mechanical, chemical, and electrochemical. Taking the last one first, there used to be a device called a Foul-Out made by Outers. It was never a big seller and they dropped it from their line some years ago. Father Frog's site has do-it-yourself instructions, but you have to mix chemicals and do some soldering.

The chemical method I've found works is Sharpshoot'R NO-LEAD. You wet the barrel with it and leave it for an hour and it reacts with the lead to form a black compound that patches right out. I've heard a couple of folks complain about its shelf life. I've had no problem with it so far.

The mechanical methods are to scrape the lead out with something that can't hurt the steel bore. The commercial device for this is called a Lewis Lead Remover, sold by Brownells. It uses patches of bronze screen to scrape lead from the bore surface. Many folks just wrap a strand or two of Chore Boy brand copper scouring pad around an undersized brush and scrape it out with that. CAUTION: a lot of other brands are copper-plated steel pads. These will scratch a bore. Use a magnet to test for steel underneath if you are uncertain what you've got. Look for "100% Copper" on the label, or stick to the Chore Boy brand.

Both of those mechanical methods work best if you apply a penetrating cleaner (that brand is a penetrant and does not react with copper) or a penetrating oil like Kroil and let it sit 24 hours first. The penetrants get under the lead so it pops out more easily. Again, the smoother the bore, the easier this is to do.

The last mechanical method is to employ one of the lead removing cloths. I have mixed feelings about these. I looked up the original patent and they use 400 grit aluminum oxide abrasive. This removes lead, but it's slow. I permanently marks aluminum. It polishes steel. It occurred to me long ago that you could smooth a muzzle loader by firing balls patched with this stuff, and pulling it through a bore from breech to muzzle won't hurt and will tend to polish the bore or cylinder throat you push it through a little. I would avoid starting it in from the muzzle. It's probably too slow cutting and too embedded in the cloth to funnel a muzzle, but the idea just bothers me. YMMV.

[Hawg]

The best way to remove lead is wrap part of a Chore Boy copper scrubbing pad around a bronze brush. Just make sure it's copper and not just copper plated stainless steel. They come both ways. I run pure lead through my .45 ACP and get no leading. Pure lead is good for 1000 FPS or less, any faster and it's going to lead. Pure lead leads up my 63 Sharp's big time but bullets made from clip on wheel weights don't lead at all and they are a good bit oversize.

[noylj]

I pretty much only shoot lead bullets. I clean my guns religiously--once every year or two or every 5,000-10,000 rounds. I do check the bore occasionally.
When I test fire a new bullet, I check the bore after about 25 shots and again after about 100 shots. If there is any leading, I either get those bullets 0.001" larger or I tumble lube them in Lee Liquid Alox or I discard them if they weren't accurate.
IF lead bullets were such a problem, it would have been noted over the last 500 years and folks would be having problems with their .22LR guns.
Fit and lube are the keys.

[g.willikers]

My reloading has been mostly with lead bullets.
To keep leading to a minimum:
Proper fitting bullets, correct bullet hardness, avoid excessive velocities and use the trusty Lewis lead remover.
http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleanin...prod21587.aspx
The slower calibers, like .38 and .45acp, will lead less and faster ones, like 9mm 357 and 44 magnums, will lead more.
But it's not a big deal either way.
Shoot what you like and clean accordingly.

[Chainsaw.]

For the record I powder coat and get ZERO leading save for the one time I made my cast bullets to hard. Works great.

[res45]

Will you get lead fouling using lead bullets? How often do you clean your barrel and with what solvent?

That's really an open ended question as there are many factors than can cause leading. If you do get leading it's often easily diagnosed buy just knowing and figuring out several thing like where does the leading appear,what is the dia. of the bullet your using vs. the groove dia. of your bore or chamber throat or throats.

The BHN or hardness of your bullet vs. the load pressure / velocity and the type of lube used for that load. Some leading issues can be caused by the firearm itself such as cylinder misalignment or rough throats and bores.

When I first start shooting cast lead bullet about 35+ years ago I bought commercial cast bullet an knew nothing about all the above some worked well and others did not work at all in my handguns. I soon learned that the one size fits all offered by commercial casters just didn't work in some applications so I started casting my own a few years later an never looked back an leading hasn’t been an issue since. I can shoot my magnum handguns up to full house velocity with no leading and good accuracy and I can do it with rifles as well up to the point that accuracy degrades because the barrel twist rate simply want allow me to push that particular bullet weight/length any faster before it starts loosing stability due to unseen deformities of the bullet itself or you sling it apart due to over rotation. I've blew up a few cast rifle bullets in my day driving them to fast for a particular twist rate barrel.

Leading doesn't have to be an issue. If your firearm is in good working order an condition and you use the correct cast bullet / load combination leading shouldn't be a problem. If leading isn't an issue then clean up is easier to do than shooting jacketed bullet as basically all your having to do is normal cleaning to remove any powder residue. I clean my guns after ever shooting secession.

[Pat C]

How do you know the correct size bullet to use, do you measure the bore with a caliper?

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

I do not get leading with my cast bullets. I use the Lee 124 grain Truncated Cone tumble lube .356" mold and it's bullets as cast and "as is". I do not size them.
They are all between .356" to .361" in Diameter at the base. I lube them with Texaco Marfak NLGI 2 (MP2) Lithium grease.
Those bullets I use for my 9mm Luger as well as for my "creation" the 9mm Federal Rimmed (for my 357 Magnum Revolver SAA).

[Nick_C_S]

do you measure the bore with a caliper?

No. You "slug" the bore. That is, to take a bullet (swaged, or pure lead - needs to be as soft as possible) and gently force it through the bore (usually tapped in with a wooden dowel and rubber mallet; and the barrel is thoroughly lubricated). The slug is then measured with a V-anvil micrometer (expensive) - calipers aren't accurate enough; and a conventional micrometer may not capture the true diameter.

[Unclenick]

You only need V-anvil micrometers for odd numbers of lands. They are made for 3,5 and 7 flute end mill measuring and those work for slug impressions of the same numbers of lands. An inexpensive OD thimble micrometer does fine with even numbers of grooves, as you can then measure straight across the slug. In experienced hands and with a reference for calibration, dial calipers may be used, but if you don't have a deft hand at measuring, it's easy to deflect the beams and create an error. In a digital caliper bit error can fool you by half a thousandth. The most reliable thing is to use a micrometer with 0.0001" resolution, whether digital or a vernier scale type, or, for odd numbers of lands, a V-anvil type.

[Nick_C_S]

And there we have it. Thanks or the clarification Unclenick.

[849ACSO]

Lead will come and go, depending on the lead, the load, the lube, the gun, the variables are nearly limitless.

I have a 158gr Hard cast lead that I can push as hard as a JHP in one of my 357's, and the bore shows no hint of lead. I can put those same rounds into one of my other 357's and have a mess after a box.

I have never a found a way to "keep it from happening". You just have to know when to stop shooting, because at some point it's a futile effort and could become dangerous if the bore becomes obstructed to the point it causes a pressure problem.

[TheGuyOfSouthamerica]

How does leading look like in the barrel?

I scraped my 2 barrels out with an brass brush over an white paper and nothing to see coming out onto the paper.
I got last time accuracy of 1.5" on 6 shots total.

Some pictures of leading?