My Bullets are Tumbling

Mikul · March 15, 2001, 02:30 PM

I'm shooting Berry's 124gr PRNs with 4.4gr of Titgroup from and H&K USP. Every 20 rounds a bullet will go through the target sideways and waaaaay off of my point of aim.

I shot 50 rounds of S&B through it without that problem.

Any ideas what could be causing this?

BTW, 4.4gr of Titegroup is the maximum load.

WalterGAII · March 15, 2001, 04:46 PM

Crimp might be too tight, causing the core to separate from the plating. As long as your velocity is under 1200fps, you shouldn't have the problems that you're having.

West Coast has thicker plating than does Berry's. I've had the same problem with West Coast plated bullets, when loading for hi-vel .40 Super ammo. If the problem persists, I'd suggest trying Montana Gold jacketed bullets, which are about the same price as Berry's and West Coast plated bullets.

maxwayne · March 15, 2001, 06:48 PM

I have had the same problem with some lead rounds in 9mm. Does your pistol have polygonal rifling. I find that style doesnt like lead.

Mikul · March 15, 2001, 07:37 PM

Walter, I'm glad to hear that you've had the same problem and that you think it's a velocity issue. That was my only guess as to the problem.

With 4.4gr of titegroup I could be exceeding 1200fps by a little bit. I have a batch of the same loads with FMJ's I'll try out.

WESHOOT2 · March 15, 2001, 07:47 PM

You can try a heavier bullet, or a 'slower' powder (3N37, AA5, Power Pistol).

Or a different bullet...

Or maybe insufficient flare, which distorts the bullet base, or...

Mikul · March 15, 2001, 10:14 PM

I do have polygonal rifling.

I've shot 231 with Berry's before (also at 4.4), but that's no where near the maximum.

Insufficient flare? I always thought the less the flare, the better.

It's really looking like I'm exceeding the speed at which a plated bullet is effective with this load. I had hoped to test the IMI plated rounds tonight, but I'm not going to make it. I'll let you know how my tests turn out tomorrow.

I just looked inside the barrel and it seems pretty leaded up for 200 rounds, but the rest of the gun is surprisingly clean.

Uh. I've got another 300 rounds of these.

Do you think I'll do any damage by shooting the rest of these?

[Edited by Mikul on 03-15-2001 at 10:57 PM]

big89foot · March 16, 2001, 09:46 AM

I just received a brochure from Berry's that might explain things. They stated that their thin plating (.003") is only "tested" to 1200fps; faster than this & the plating can seperate from the lead core and accuracy will go away. They also state that you should avoid strong roll crimps because they can cut through the plating & cause the same problem. I had this problem with .44mag in my Marlin rifle; the brochure explained things...I guess I'll just have to avoid Berry's with hot loads.

jtduncan · March 17, 2001, 12:31 AM

WalterGA is on the money.

I had some Berry's 180s and 165 grain 10mm FPs tumbling.

After a while we noticed my crimping was way too tight.

Use a very light crimp on the plated bullets. Otherwise, you compress the bearing space of the rear of the bullet, elongate it, and it doesn't have a tight fit going down the barrel so it comes out like a poorly thrown football tumbling and wiggling wildly.

Try bumping up the charge a tad and lightening the crimp.

George Helser · March 18, 2001, 05:10 AM

Pardon me, but why do you practice shooting? What is your objective?

If you just want to make a flash, or bang, or cut paper, have fun! If you need to take game or exercise self defense, you should use high quality components.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

Mikul · March 19, 2001, 04:35 PM

I finally made it to the range with the IMI bullets, but everything else was the same. Everything was great until I got 150 rounds into it.

I loaded a fresh magazine into the gun and realized that the slide was still forward. I worked the slide and a shell casing came out.

?????

I took the gun apart and looked down the barrel.

DAMN! This is not my day.

A round was lodged in the barrel. The brass was covered in carbon and the primer is shaped around the firing pin (although I'm not certain that brass was the one I manually ejected). The barrel appears fine on the outside. The grooves on the polygonal rifling appear to be stripped down to bare metal. The grooves are bright silver, but the rest is black. Does anyone know what that indicates?

It looks like I had a round lodged in the barrel and fired another one after it. I can't explain the pressure signs on the brass any other way. A double charge would do that, but I sure shouldn't have a bullet stuck in the barrel.

I didn't feel a thing while shooting. Any time something feels unusual, I strip the gun.

I can't figure how I got a squib load either from my 550b.

Is it possible that I had a double charge which fouled the barrel so badly that the next round got stuck?

March 15, 2001, 07:47 PM	#5
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	You can try a heavier bullet, or a 'slower' powder (3N37, AA5, Power Pistol). Or a different bullet... Or maybe insufficient flare, which distorts the bullet base, or... __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

March 17, 2001, 12:31 AM	#8
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	WalterGA is on the money. I had some Berry's 180s and 165 grain 10mm FPs tumbling. After a while we noticed my crimping was way too tight. Use a very light crimp on the plated bullets. Otherwise, you compress the bearing space of the rear of the bullet, elongate it, and it doesn't have a tight fit going down the barrel so it comes out like a poorly thrown football tumbling and wiggling wildly. Try bumping up the charge a tad and lightening the crimp. __________________ The Seattle SharpShooter Reloaded .223 Rem, 9mm, 40SW, 357 SIG, 10mm, 44 Mag, 45 ACP Today?

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March 15, 2001, 02:30 PM	#1
Mikul Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2000 Posts: 1,396	I'm shooting Berry's 124gr PRNs with 4.4gr of Titgroup from and H&K USP. Every 20 rounds a bullet will go through the target sideways and waaaaay off of my point of aim. I shot 50 rounds of S&B through it without that problem. Any ideas what could be causing this? BTW, 4.4gr of Titegroup is the maximum load.

March 15, 2001, 04:46 PM	#2
WalterGAII Junior member Join Date: November 7, 1999 Posts: 1,516	Crimp might be too tight, causing the core to separate from the plating. As long as your velocity is under 1200fps, you shouldn't have the problems that you're having. West Coast has thicker plating than does Berry's. I've had the same problem with West Coast plated bullets, when loading for hi-vel .40 Super ammo. If the problem persists, I'd suggest trying Montana Gold jacketed bullets, which are about the same price as Berry's and West Coast plated bullets.

March 15, 2001, 06:48 PM	#3
maxwayne Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2001 Posts: 402	I have had the same problem with some lead rounds in 9mm. Does your pistol have polygonal rifling. I find that style doesnt like lead.

March 15, 2001, 07:37 PM	#4
Mikul Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2000 Posts: 1,396	Walter, I'm glad to hear that you've had the same problem and that you think it's a velocity issue. That was my only guess as to the problem. With 4.4gr of titegroup I could be exceeding 1200fps by a little bit. I have a batch of the same loads with FMJ's I'll try out.

March 15, 2001, 10:14 PM	#6
Mikul Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2000 Posts: 1,396	I do have polygonal rifling. I've shot 231 with Berry's before (also at 4.4), but that's no where near the maximum. Insufficient flare? I always thought the less the flare, the better. It's really looking like I'm exceeding the speed at which a plated bullet is effective with this load. I had hoped to test the IMI plated rounds tonight, but I'm not going to make it. I'll let you know how my tests turn out tomorrow. I just looked inside the barrel and it seems pretty leaded up for 200 rounds, but the rest of the gun is surprisingly clean. Uh. I've got another 300 rounds of these. Do you think I'll do any damage by shooting the rest of these? [Edited by Mikul on 03-15-2001 at 10:57 PM]

March 16, 2001, 09:46 AM	#7
big89foot Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: Pensacola, Fl Posts: 54	I just received a brochure from Berry's that might explain things. They stated that their thin plating (.003") is only "tested" to 1200fps; faster than this & the plating can seperate from the lead core and accuracy will go away. They also state that you should avoid strong roll crimps because they can cut through the plating & cause the same problem. I had this problem with .44mag in my Marlin rifle; the brochure explained things...I guess I'll just have to avoid Berry's with hot loads.

March 18, 2001, 05:10 AM	#9
George Helser Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2000 Location: Scottsdale AZ Posts: 242	Pardon me, but why do you practice shooting? What is your objective? If you just want to make a flash, or bang, or cut paper, have fun! If you need to take game or exercise self defense, you should use high quality components. Regards, George In sunny Arizona

March 19, 2001, 04:35 PM	#10
Mikul Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2000 Posts: 1,396	I finally made it to the range with the IMI bullets, but everything else was the same. Everything was great until I got 150 rounds into it. I loaded a fresh magazine into the gun and realized that the slide was still forward. I worked the slide and a shell casing came out. ????? I took the gun apart and looked down the barrel. DAMN! This is not my day. A round was lodged in the barrel. The brass was covered in carbon and the primer is shaped around the firing pin (although I'm not certain that brass was the one I manually ejected). The barrel appears fine on the outside. The grooves on the polygonal rifling appear to be stripped down to bare metal. The grooves are bright silver, but the rest is black. Does anyone know what that indicates? It looks like I had a round lodged in the barrel and fired another one after it. I can't explain the pressure signs on the brass any other way. A double charge would do that, but I sure shouldn't have a bullet stuck in the barrel. I didn't feel a thing while shooting. Any time something feels unusual, I strip the gun. I can't figure how I got a squib load either from my 550b. Is it possible that I had a double charge which fouled the barrel so badly that the next round got stuck?