are HK and sig king?

[Dragline45]

I think they stopped production on the P series didn't they? Not really a dent in their lineup but thought worth noting.

That's only because the SR series replaced it. While the P series were great guns, with the introduction of the SR series in 9mm, .40, and .45, in both full size and compact, the P series were getting left behind.

Yeah, but SIG takes it to the extreme. It feels like they offer a hundred different versions of each model they make. Some of the versions aren't even listed on their website.

I agree, like I mentioned before they do offer too many variants of the same exact pistol, especially some of their corny limited edition models with god awful paint schemes. But offering of a variety of different guns in different sizes is by no means a bad thing, what I got from thedudeabides post is they should stop production of all pistols and focus solely on the P226, 229, and 220. That would leave a huge gap in their production line that the 232, 238, 239, and 938 fill.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

That's only because the SR series replaced it. While the P series were great guns, with the introduction of the SR series in 9mm, .40, and .45, in both full size and compact, the P series were getting left behind.

I heard a few details as to why they did it. From what I gather the sales of the P series were still outperforming other Low three hundred dollar guns but the cost to manufacture was becoming to high, not far from their SR series and cutting into it's sales as well. Ergo a move to improve overall profit and increase SR sales that still slide in under the cost of M&P, Glock, etc. Makes some since from a business standpoint I guess. If you can't lower the cost enough and it outsells your main design the reason may be validated. I at first thought they were designing a replacement. I don't think so now.

The P Series owned sales compared to the same price range competitors here in the U.S that were popular. Also read reports that it was the most confiscated Semi-auto pistol by LE nationwide.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Yes OP... I think so.

[mrt949]

I like my HK P2000SK V2 LEM 40 .

[Garycw]

I don't own any HK's..(yet). But I do love my Sigs!! I have kind of evolved into them. 5~6 years ago I wouldn't imagined I own $1000 pistols. I know there's much more expensive models out there , although I think I've reached my upper limits $. The Sigs I have are worth every penny.

[Dragline45]

Also read reports that it was the most confiscated Semi-auto pistol by LE nationwide.

Now that you mention it, I did notice alot of the pistols they confiscate on COPS are Hi-points and Ruger P series pistols, along with a bunch of cheap saturday night special revolvers. You see the occasional high dollar pistol, which you can only assume were stolen from a gun owner and not bought as a straw purchase and resold on the street.

[Dragline45]

No, they are not the king's, certainly they are on the list, but better choices costing far less(particularly HK)exist. The king of durability and reliability is still Glock, S&W's M&P has refined itself into a superb design, both of these pistols are to my mind better choices then those offered by Sig or HK.

Glock's and M&P's are no more reliable or durable than Sig's or HK's. While semi autos tending to be unreliable was an issue in past decades, these days they have it down pretty good and just about every major manufacturer makes a pistol just as reliable as the next, with a few exceptions of course.

From a self defense standpoint, Glock's and M&P's work equally as well as any Sig or HK. But I have still yet to shoot any Glock or M&P with such consistent out of the box accuracy as Sig's and HK's. Most Glock's or M&P's that you see in competition are highly modified, and while you don't see many Sig's or HK's in competition, that largely in part is due to their DA/SA triggers.

[Glenn Dee]

King of what?

[Wreck-n-Crew]

King of what?

uh Semi auto Pistols, !lol {{{shaking head}}}. ^^^^someone have a Wreck moment? or is it me? (again)

[Bentonville]

In my experience, HK is at the top of the heap. The reliability is 100% with all the models I have owned and the thousands of rounds put through them. Their customer service is second to none. It was said by someone else on another forum that sometimes you really do get what you pay for: HK.

[SHE3PDOG]

It is a poor idea to base you decision on what LE carries. They have other factors affecting their decisions aside from wanting the best. They want the best at a certain price point, and they want something easy to have work done to with readily available parts in large quantities. That does NOT mean that what they carry is of the highest quality, it is just a compromise between many factors.

[RussB]

A couple things need to be set straight in this thread.

One is that ALL the small parts in HK plastic pistols are made via the MIM process.

Second, there have indeed been documented QC issues with HK pistols. Most recently, the "false reset" problems with the HK45 series. To HK's credit, they pay shipping both ways and turn the gun around in just a couple days. All manufacturers can have problems, and HK now does a stellar job on correcting any that their guns have...that wasn't always the case though. Kudo's to them for turning it around

[8MM Mauser]

An HK UPS was the first pistol I ever fell in love with. I also have a certain love for the SIG P226. Both manufacturers make great guns; but to me the question isn't clear enough. What does "king" mean in your mind? If it means an overall package of price versus function then I would say the striker-fired guns such as Glocks and M&P's have taken the title. You get accuracy every bit as good for any practical matter and as has been pointed out they are just as reliable as the more expensive guns. Would I trust my like to a SIG or HK? Heck yes I would! One of my biggest gun related regrets is not jumping on a $400 used USP I saw in a hardware store a few years back actually. That said, besides the name prestige and the nice look and feel of the gun what am I actually getting versus a Glock lets say? Would I like a USP or 226 better than a Glock from an aesthetic point of view? Yes I would. Would it make one bit of difference if I had to use the pistol in an SD situation whether it was a SIG, HK, Glock, S&W or whatever in my hand? I do not think that it would. (It is the warrior not the weapon.)

So who is really the king? The company that offers me a reliable gun for SD for $1100 or the company that offers me the exact same reliability for $600? Who is really the king of semi-autos? The gun that might be better in 100 tiny ways or the one that a normal person can actually afford to buy? It just seems to me that the strikers have knocked the competition out when it comes to value here; as evidenced by both HK and SIG in fact moving into the striker fired market at their price point.

I don't have an answer I suppose, but it is an interesting thing to ponder. I guess you just have to figure out where you draw the line on price and what is most important to you.

[TunnelRat]

I do not think that it would. (It is the warrior not the weapon.)

I get where you are going, but this argument makes me laugh every time without fail. Used to be it was the Indian not the arrow. Tell that to the US cavalry that shot all of the Indians.

[Crankgrinder]

I cant spend sig money myself. My cousin made off with an hk usp .40. I told him it was a great gun, I would buy a sig stainless elite if I wanted something real nice. Right now theres no use for it with so many things needing attention. Glock/ruger/beretta moneys what I got these days.

[Ricklin]

Quote An HK UPS was the first pistol I ever fell in love with.

DId it arrive in a brown box.....or a brown truck?

[dakiwi13]

I'd put fn in that same class too

[SHE3PDOG]

An HK UPS was the first pistol I ever fell in love with.

Ditto, in 45.

[DubC-Hicks]

While I believe Sig and HK make great pistols, they aren't king by any means. Other pistols will do what they do for half the price.

Even though they aren't my favorite, I think Glock is king. Glocks are what EVERY other pistol is compared to. They make a great no BS weapon that just works. Extremely simple, more than accurate enough, and priced where pretty much anyone can afford them.

[Mosin44az]

Not sure I would call either HK or SIG "kings". Value has to be taken into account. I do not see either being enough better than a Glock to justify the price difference. Glock seems to have injured its rep with Generation 4, but to me the Gen 3 Glocks match up with anything and are a better value than any SIG or HK. Going into battle, to me a Glock 19 would be just as good as either.

I had an HK USP Compact .40 I dry fired a bit, and the firing pin broke in half and fell out of the gun. Never had a broken firing pin with ANY other pistol I've owned. Not exactly Kingly performance.

SIG's reputation has been built on its classic 220 series of guns, and apparently the 239 and 2022 are excellent as well. But SIG has come up with enough cheap stuff lately that they don't exactly seem to be royalty.

I will say that I have a P220 that is as well built as anything I've ever owned.

And SIG's service in my one recent experience, is excellent. Have extraction problems with my new P238. Called SIG, they answered IMMEDIATELY (Ruger I've waited up to an hour at times), took the info, sent a Fed Ex label, no argument. Hopefully they will fix it, but so far so good.

[IMightBeWrong]

After owning 5 Glocks, 2 SIGs, and an HK, I can EASILY justify spending the extra money on a SIG or HK. I have fired far more rounds through the two SIGs I have had than any of the 5 Glocks I have owned, and ALL FIVE of the Glocks had at least one malfunction, definitely some of them had a few. I have NEVER had a malfunction in a SIG, and so far no hiccups from the HK either although I haven't fired it as much as the others yet. However, it does have a MUCH cleaner ejection pattern than any of my Glocks ever did. They all liked to toss brass out pretty indiscriminately in just about any direction, sometimes right in my face (Gen 4s). The HK, and ESPECIALLY the SIGs I've fired, eject in almost the exact same direction every single time.

Glocks are NOT built to the standard of an HK or SIG, I can promise that. They are by no means UN-reliable, but they are not quite up to the level of SIG or HK.

I would say the law of diminishing returns is in place here. I wouldn't call SIG and HK leagues upon leagues above a Glock or an M&P, but they are better guns. Whether or not they're better to the point of justifying nearly double the price is up to the buyer. For me, they are.

This is just my opinion, but personally I think CZ makes a much better competitor to a SIG or an HK than Glock or the M&P will. CZ P-01 and Walther PPQ are the bridge between HK/SIG and Glocks/M&Ps in my opinion. YMMV.

[SHE3PDOG]

CZ P-01 and Walther PPQ are the bridge between HK/SIG and Glocks/M&Ps in my opinion.

I think I'd slide the FNX in there too for bridging the gap.

[IMightBeWrong]

I haven't tried the FNX at the range at all and have never owned an FN (yet, at least). I've heard nothing but good things and I've liked what I've held. Can't speak from experience, though.

[SHE3PDOG]

You definitely should get on that if you can find a range to rent one. The FNX 45 is pretty sweet, and the 5.7 is a class of its own. If ammo weren't so hard to find for it, I'd already have one.

I don't put them quite on the same level as HK and Sig, but they are pretty close.

[kcub]

I had an HK USP Compact .40 I dry fired a bit, and the firing pin broke in half and fell out of the gun. Never had a broken firing pin with ANY other pistol I've owned. Not exactly Kingly performance.

Why would you even do that and blame it on the gun? No matter how much you spend on a gun you should always use snap caps instead of expecting a dinky little fragile post of metal to bail you out of abuse. Not exactly performance of a king of one's castle.

Regarding value alternatives as this thread has devolved into a discussion of as always I'd go with classic Beretta 92 Compact which is beautiful and reliable vs. Glock which is ugly yet reliable. Unless, of course you just favor striker triggers in which case why would you not just go with the Walther PPQ, the king of striker guns.