Combat Shotgun

[Nightcrawler]

Alright all you scattergun experts (and wannabe experts )! In what situations, environments, and missions do you think it would be appropriate to arm troops with shotguns? Which make, model, gauge, and configuration do you think would be best? What kind of ammunition, and how much should each trooper carry?

[Blinkme7182]

Well I know next to nothing about shotguns, But I'm going to guess they would have 12 or 16 gauge for use in CLOSE RANGE battle, as 12 g. shotgun spread aat 100 yards is almost 10 feet---Probably a good gun for clearing out an occupied village...

[Dave McC]

Jungle fighting with its short time frame scenarios and close up action is where the combat shotgun shines. But...

A round of 12 ga weighs around the same as 3 rounds of .223, or 2 .308s. Obviously, carrying as many rounds of shotgun ammo as rifle ammo puts the shotgunner at a disadvantage. Most modern infantrymen carry about 200 rounds. Any idea on how hard it would be to run and fight with 8 boxes of 12 ga ammo would be?

And even in the jungle, there's enough open spaces where a longer range firearm makes sense.

Shotguns, IMO, will remain a Special Purpose weapon for the military,and secondary to a rifle for the most part.

As to make, model,etc, Remington 870.

[Nightcrawler]

You have your squad of thirteen men.

Your squad leader is armed with a rifle/grenade launcher combo, and sidearm.

The rest of the squad is divided up into two fireteams. Each fireteam leader has a rifle/grenade launcher and a sidearm.

Of the remaining five in each fireteam, four are armed with shotguns, and one is armed with the support weapon, probably a belt fed machine gun.

I think this setup would be fine for jungle or urban combat. Perhaps give one particularly skilled marksman a scoped rifle.

[Destructo6]

Good for troops that are prohibited, by the Geneva Convention, from carrying offensive weapons (ie medics). They'd be good in an urban environ or dense jungle. Otherwise no good.

[Apeach]

Any urban combat, because the ranges are much closer and a 12 gauge shotgun can dish out devastating power in close ranges such as hallways or rooms. Other than that, I'd say it's pretty much useless. Maybe a little for jungle combat, but I think that a short rifle would be more useful there.

[Nightcrawler]

...the shotgun is the least useful, overall, firearm one can own? Is this the conclusion we're drawing?

I dunno. I belive in WWII the British, fighting in Burma, concluded that the Shotgun was the best jungle weapon, superior even to chatterguns like the STEN.

Some other places a shotgun might come in handy, besides MOUT or jungle warfare:

-Assign one short-barreled shotgun to each APC or Tank, instead of a submachine gun or carbine. Odds are, if the APC crew is going to use a personal weapon instead of the autocannon (on the Bradley) or Ma Deuce (on the one one three) then that means that the no-good-niks are getting really close, and a compact shotgun could provide some close up knock down power.

-For boarding parties on ships (they do this now, actually). Ships have metal walls and floors. A bullet might richochet.

-On space stations. (hey, it could happen...wherever man goes, he brings war with him). A rifle bullet might ricochet, or worse yet, penetrate the hull, wheras buckshot designed for the purpose would be less likely to puncture.

[Turk]

Nightcrawler,

I carrried a 12 ga. pump (I believe it was a Stevens) on a couple of daytime partols (squad leader) and one night ambush (Hawk Team leader) in Vietnam. My units weapons Plt. (81mm mortors) had two of them from which I borrowed. I carried 30-50 (don't remember for sure). Never did make contact while carring it.

Looking back over the years I can't really say using it was the right decision. A M-16 had a round up the pipe and mag. with 18 rounds loaded gives you 19 rounds. Mag. exchange could be accomplished very quickly. The shotgun had 5 shots with 9, 00 pellets moving down range at a much slower velocity. Reload is very slow and in a close in firefight (ambush) he who puts out the most fire wins (usually). With a 30 rd. mag. you even have more rounds to put on the target area.

I really believe anything a shotgun can do a M-16, M-4's etc. of rifle can do better.


Turk

[K80Geoff]

The US made good use of shotguns in WW1 for cleaning out trenches. Guess it was more effective than a Springfield or Enfield.

Think Trench Warfare is passe', think again. With the proliferation of multiple warhead rockets (MLRS) and artillery, high rate of fire auto weapons and cluster bombs. The way to survive will be to dig in. Charlie learned this in Viet Nam, dug lots of tunnels.

The next great war may be fought with entrenching tools


Geoff Ross

[Nightcrawler]

*shrug*

That's why I would suggest that not all members of the squad in question be armed with shotguns, just a few. Also, they don't have to be pump shotguns with 4+1 capacity. They can be semiauto, or hell, select fire ones with detachable box magazines, if you could make one reliable enough (they can do it for rifles, why not for shotguns? Put it on an AK action, like the Saiga). And let's not think in terms of 12 gauge 2.75" 00 buck from an 18" smoothbore barrel, either. What about higher pressure, modernized ammo, like they were trying to do with the Heckler & Koch Close Assault Weapons System ?







It is possible that the shotgun is obsolete, though. I mean, sure, a pumpgun was plenty effective when rushing a trench full of guys with 50" long bolt-action rifles, but today they have small automatic weapons that can dish out fire to a general area, in much the same manner as a shotgun, but with longer range (3 round burst).

I'm sad. I'm still buying an 870, though. Shotguns are the funnest (whoop whoop whoop! Bad Grammar Alert!) guns I've ever played with, especially if you like target reaction..hehe..

[Dave McC]

Back in the late 70s, I had some contacts at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. The Army had some brainy folks playing around with munitions and making lots of loud noises.

One project was an ambush buster. They tried various ideas and combos. One approach had two full auto shotguns with big drum mags mounted together in tandem with a full auto 9mm sub gun in between loaded with only tracers to direct fire.

The 9mm had a slow rate of fire(for full auto) and the shotguns were like 90 RPM. Not fast by military standards, but these folks spoke in awed tones of just how much damage a 5 second engagement resulted in. Bbls were regulated to cover an area totally at maybeso 40 meters.IIRC, we're talking about one 00 pellet per square foot. BTW, this was and is declassed.

They had another ambush buster. It was a small turret with a series of short shotgun bbls mounted to it, looking something like an old time naval mine. The bbls stuck out at angles maybe 35 degrees above and below horizontal and were good for one shot w/ no reloading mechanism. A simple electric control had all the bbls going off simultaneously turning the area adjacent to the vehicle into a very dangerous place. I understand the South Africans had something similiar during the Apartheid period. With People's Armies and tribal warfare burgeoning, this could give a civilian vehicle a chance against a squad or two of banditos or Freedom Fighters, depending on your viewpoint. Kind of a super Claymore....

A battered Winchester 97 was part of our crew equipment in the late unpleasantness in SEA. It was used on guard duty and as a backup. A MM79 was the other part of that backup. I stuck with my highly irregularly acquired M-14.

Shotguns seem to appear like magic in combat zones. I saw plenty of pumps, some A-5s and even some doubles worked into "Whippet" guns.I doubt many of same were regarded by their bearers as first line weapons.

The Phillipinos during WWII turned shotgun shells, nails and irrigation pipe into tools to obtain a nice shiny new Japanese Army Rifle. This was called a Palintid, and after the war ended, many variants were developed, including full auto 410s.

Going back a bit further, plenty of Confederate cavalry like Jubal Early's hard riding men used M/L shotguns, oft shortened, to even the odds. One was on display at the Gettysburg museum had bbls about 14-16" long.Imagine a company of Reb Cavalry coming at you, firing two volleys and then going to saber and sidearm. A common load was 60 gr of FFF or FF, and 5 pistol balls(Probably Navy sized, say .375) per bbl.

[MO JENKINS]

There was an article in S.O.F. recently about SEAL TEAM "custom shop" guns in Vietnam. The one that really impressed me was a highly modified full-auto Rem 1100. It saw some very limited use, but according to the article was pretty popular with those who used it (and very reliable) . In conditions that would dictate a VERY high probability of extremely close range encounters, it would be hard to think of another weapon that would be better to carry on point. As part of a integrated unit, I would be very comfortable carrying such a weapon (as long as I had some riflemen alongside me). Walking alone through the South Bronx I would much rather carry a folding stock M1 carbine under a winter coat, if conditions permitted. But having been stranded on the streets of the South Bronx for a day (and night) and not having any combat experience I guess my opinion is S*%t !
Yup, just my opinion, probably not worth much........
MO JENKINS

[Dave3006]

Here is a slightly different take based on my personal choice of weapons for when/if their is an urban breakdown, riot, ect..

Rifle - Daytime operation. Distances could be 100 yards or more if your house or business is under fire. Before anyone tells me someone 100 yards is not a threat, think it through. They could be burning a neighbors house, driving up and through your fence, or just plain old sniping you. 100yds could be a threat. A rifle is the primary choice.

Shotgun - Night fighting. Much easier to hit a moving target in low light than with a carbine. AND, in CQB the name of the game is putting someone down fast. I never hear people mention this! If they live and can fight for even one second too long, they can live long enough to shoot you before you die. A shotgun is the most reliable way to end a fight fast at room distance.

Handgun - Backup weapon. Good weapon for use in a car if you have to engage someone while you are fleeing.

That is my take on it.

[ModIMark0]

Smith and Wesson developed a combat shotgun for the CAWS program that loosely resembled an AR10. It had a ten round box magazine canted at a slight angle (like Armalite's current AR10s do to accomodate the modified M14 mags), a carrying handle/sight and a round fore end. Different barrel lengths were tested, but the standard length was 18 inches. Overall length was an inch or so longer than an M16 rifle (about 40-41"). I have not encountered much in the way of test and evaluation information on it, but it would look like an excellent candidate for a combat shotgun. I cannot recall if it could use standard 2.75" or 3" shells, or required a specially designed round like Heckler and Koch's CAWS. I know that AAI also made a CAWS prototype as well. Anyone know where to look for or receive information on the CAWS program from the 1980's?

[Spectre]

I believe the 12-bore shotgun to be the common man's dragon slayer, the most versatile arm available. I hope to write an article stating this, contrary to the good Colonel's opinion, within the year.

I have a lot of respect for the Saiga 12 shotgun, and am currently keeping an eye out for one. The problem with extended box magazines on 12-ga shotguns, is that the recoil tends to destroy the bottom rounds. I believe the good folks who designed the Saiga found 7 rounds to be the max one could put in a mag and still have useable rounds, but it's been a while since I read the SOF issue that detailed this.

While I believe a good 12 gauge to be an excellent close-in tool, or a versatile tool, I do not believe it to be ideal for dedicated combat use in any circumstance other than extreme close range against unarmored adversaries.

[Spectre]

Very interested.

When sensop posts his pictures of the shoot from a few weeks ago, I'll show everyone what MY idea of a scout is!