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February 6, 2009, 07:40 PM | #51 |
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Mr. Meyer is correct.
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Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective |
February 6, 2009, 08:54 PM | #52 | |
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The OP's question isn't really about shooting someone. It is actually an excellent question in that he is asking what to do if it turns out shooting is not necessary. An example given in a training class was where you hear someone inside your home at night and when you peek into the living room, he's sitting on your sofa, with one of your beers, watching the TV. Worse, he is unresponsive to your commands at all. In such a case, shooting him is not a legitimate action because he poses no immediate threat. Those who would suggest that his mere presence poses a threat have not had to deal with prosecutorial investigations or questioning. Likewise, a street encounter at 10 feet where your attacker suddenly drops his knife/gun/club but does not flee when given the chance nor obey commands is not an immediate threat. [Though in such a case I'd be tempted to increase the distance between us.]
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February 6, 2009, 09:20 PM | #53 | ||
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We are given the natural right of self preservation. The law entitles to do what is necessary to preserve ourselves. Our duty is not to use force to enforce the law and apprehend those who break it. We select, train, empower, and pay others to do so. Nor is it to decide what constitutes due process. The second to last thing I ever want to do is shoot someone. |
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February 6, 2009, 10:35 PM | #54 | |
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As for current Florida law you'll have to get an opinion from someone licensed there, but the rule used to be the common law rule, that a private citizen can make a citizen's arrest for a felony or breach of the peace. Even things like DUI and public intox have been found to be breaches of the peace. Again, do your own research or consult a FL lawyer. As for whether a citizen should attempt an arrest, transitioning from gunpoint to going hands on is the most dangerous part of the job of a LE agent or officer. We spend a great amount of time practicing these, then learning what new countermeasures the human excrement have learned in jail or from their fellow gangstas, then learning new ways to defeat their countermeasures, over and over again. An untrained person is just asking for trouble attempting to "try to detain" a bad guy. As for the other variations of the hypothetical, the answer is always the same, did the bad guy have the means, opportunity, and intent to do serious bodily harm to you or someone else. You can make a million hypos and you'll never get a definitive answer. There simply is no bright line test on which you can rely. Last edited by nemoaz; February 6, 2009 at 10:52 PM. |
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February 6, 2009, 10:58 PM | #55 | ||||
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February 6, 2009, 11:07 PM | #56 |
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the law in florida and texas changed by the demand of the people. you can shoot them in your yard running away even.. no kidding. there was some looting we have the most relaxed law now. but now they know dont step on properties with ill intent if you wanna live.
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February 6, 2009, 11:13 PM | #57 | |
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I've heard of neither criminal nor civil action against such an action. It may have happened, but where? |
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February 7, 2009, 04:52 AM | #58 | |
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+1 to what this guy said
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February 7, 2009, 09:48 AM | #59 | ||
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February 7, 2009, 10:07 AM | #60 | ||
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My CCW instructor says that Missouri is one of them. When the immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm dissipates, the justification for using deadly force goes away. Now, if there has been a serious felony, one may be justified in making a citizen's arrest, assuming high physical, criminal, and civil risk. One of the perps gets hurt or suffers from a medical emergency and there may be hell to pay. Again, talk to a knowledgeable trial lawyer in your state. Not the guy who does your will. Quote:
I have no idea why anyone would want to expose himself to serious physical risks or assume the significant risks of criminal prosecution or civil liability to "hold them for the law"--particularly when there's a high likelihood that the assailants will be on the streets again in short order. And that brings to mind the thought, and that's all it is, that somehow the citizen's actions might themselves provide the ammunition the perp's lawyer's need to get him off. Unlikely, maybe, and perhaps very unlikely, but why risk it? In my case, as soon as the danger has passed I become a witness. |
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February 7, 2009, 10:09 AM | #61 |
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deadly force
Its an interesting thing BUT Mass has a castle law.in that you can use force to eject an intruder up to and including deadly force.there was a case on this I believe in Watertown,Mass.and the shooter was released.
there is no better way to resolve this question than get a copy of the law. all the posts on these sites gets you nothing but personal opinons. I might note if the perp is dead he cant tell tales."why was he shot in back,answer:just as I shot he turned away."end of story. |
February 7, 2009, 11:21 AM | #62 | |
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I don't know if it has ever happened or not. I do recall a story posted here by someone about a guy holding illegal aliens that were stealing or killing his sheep. When the cops came they arrested the OWNER for kidnapping. True? I don't know. What I DO know is that in the class I had to take to get my carry permit we had a Q&A with the county DA. He told us in no uncertain terms that our rights to carry is EXCLUSIVELY for protection and that ANY use beyond that, mentioning specifically attempting to hold or restrain the BG, would result in charges against us. The only exception is under NY law which allows for restraining or even shooting a BG who is not a direct threat but has committed certain crimes. 35.30(4)- "4. A private person acting on his or her own account may use physical force, other than deadly physical force, upon another person when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to effect an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of a person whom he or she reasonably believes to have committed an offense and who in fact has committed such offense; and may use deadly physical force for such purpose when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to: (a) Defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force; or (b) Effect the arrest of a person who has committed murder, manslaughter in the first degree, robbery, forcible rape or forcible criminal sexual act and who is in immediate flight therefrom." He also made a special note that the "robbery" justification is not "attempted" but actual. In other words, some guy walks into my shop and says "Give me your money." I pull my gun and he runs, I can not shoot him. If one of my people gives him the money while I'm out back and I see him when I come up front I could, technically, shoot him. I wouldn't but I could. To confuse matters there's also the law regarding trespassing which does specifically allow the owner to detain the trespasser, by force if necessary.
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February 7, 2009, 12:20 PM | #63 |
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There seems to be a general assumption here that if you are tried that you are required to provide witness against yourself. Let's not forget the 5th Amendment. Any good defense lawyer will grill and test his own client before ever letting them take the stand to provide an opening to a prosecutor. Unless you were grossly negligent in some manner, I'd have to imagine that popular opinion would also be greatly in your favor. That may not carry "official" legal weight, but don't think it doesn't help you with a jury.
As for what would I do? Assuming we're talking about a HOME INVASION (since NJ is anti-carry), well, unlike so many here that think they'll be recalling the LAWS during such a crisis period, I think I would be more focused on the safety of my family, laws be damned. For me, it would depend greatly on what the perp did, if they were armed or not, and/or if I felt they would be the type I'd worry about for the rest of my life every time I left the house with my wife & kid by themselves. I'd very much like to see the person either (a) taken away be the police or (b) dead if need be. Again, this is under the assumption the person went to the trouble to break into my house (not just on my property, but IN my house). I don't trust that the police would find someone that escaped. Injured perhaps, but not someone that just ran. Somehow I would feel that it was my CIVIC DUTY to ensure that the person was unable to go off to the next house and try again. Wouldn't you feel guilty if you let someone run off who you COULD have detained, only to learn that they later killed or raped or injured one of your neighbors, OR, god forbid, came back and did the same to one of your own family members when you weren't around? (I'll repeat again that I'm talking about a home invasion situation, not a mugging, not someone just in your yard.) NJ is an anti-CCL state. That doesn't keep the criminals from carrying. I'd hate to chase someone off only to have to look over my shoulder anytime I ever went outside in the dark again. I'd also be incredibly worried anytime I left my wife & kid alone in the house thereafter. Threat reduction should include concerns about FUTURE possible encounters, affecting my family or someone else's. |
February 7, 2009, 03:15 PM | #64 | |
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February 7, 2009, 04:07 PM | #65 | ||
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But remember one thing, the civil lawsuit that most likely will follow, will use statements like that to crucify you. Even if you win the suit, those statements can be costly. A perfect example of this is the North Hollywood Shootout. It didn't matter that the **** had just tried to rob a bank and kill numerous people, he was still the victim (Dirtbag) in the following civil lawsuit. As a LE, I have several million in insurance to help with this type of lawsuit, and several other legal means to protect my family and assets, do you? Just my opinion, If the **** is not a threat to my family, me, or someone in the immediate area, I would let him go and be a good witness. |
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February 7, 2009, 10:54 PM | #66 | |||
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Even if the occasion never arises, I submit that such words do not help our cause one bit. Quote:
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When one includes citizen's arrest, I submit that the safety of one's family may not be enhanced at all by such action. You now have someone with a grudge against you, and he may be on the street before you hear about it. And can you assume that you will still be free to protect your family and that you will still be able to afford to support them? The police are trained, authorized, and indemnified when it comes to detraining criminals. Citizens may be authorized under certain circumstances, but very few are trained, and none are indemnified. |
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February 8, 2009, 11:05 AM | #67 | |||
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February 9, 2009, 09:02 PM | #68 |
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They are either already gone (if they were quick) or waiting on the EMTs or coronor. I would rather they be gone, but people who do evil are not always using good judgement.
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February 15, 2009, 01:39 PM | #69 |
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....speaking just for myself as a common joe:
I have no reservations about using reasonable force to protect myself, family and friends. However, I do not have any obligation or plans to detain a bad-guy. In most instances, If he runs away then he is no longer a threat to me. Being forced to shoot a bad-guy while he is trying to harm you in one thing. Being forced to shoot a bad-guy during the course of trying to detain him, is something else. That being said, if I felt that allowing someone to flee would put others in immediate-imminent lifethreatening danger, I "might" detain someone.
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February 15, 2009, 02:33 PM | #70 |
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If someone was pointing a weapon at you, then you would probably just sit very still. Would anyone here try to walk away from someone who is pointing a pistol directly at them?
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February 15, 2009, 09:07 PM | #71 |
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JohnH,
I don't think I would do that and I don't think many here would risk it either. But then, we are not criminals nor do we think like criminals. Folks that have either had some kind of LE training or who have thought it through may go through the same drill upon catching someone -- Don't Move! Let me see your hands! Get on the ground, now! The thugs may interpret this as someone who is a "rules player" and the rules say you cannot shoot someone who isn't a threat. Thus calmly walking away means no threat & no shoot. In the mid 80's, a sharp security guard stopped at a nearby liquor store for cigarettes. Just after his purchase, before he left the store, some guy came in to hold up the place, waving a Taurus .38 around. The guard challenged him from behind and he put the gun down. After the guard ordered him to the floor, he glanced back, then started calmly walking towards the door. His mistake was reaching for a 2nd gun and the guard double tapped him with a Beretta 9mm. We were eating dinner next door and heard the shots and we had to wait to get to our car. The BG was complaining to two of the cops though. "He shouldn't a shot me, man! Cops got rules. Cops got rules. You can't shoot someone in the f----- back, man! That ain't right." From the bandages, it looked like one round hit above the left shoulderblade and the other in his right buttock. But it shows some of the mentality out there. You, a good citizen, are supposed to play by the rules. He, the bad guy doesn't have to follow the rules and can be deceived and lied to.
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February 16, 2009, 12:28 AM | #72 | |
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For me, it is simple. I don't want the BG around. I want him to go away. The longer he is near me the longer he poses a threat to me and mine. |
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February 18, 2009, 04:03 PM | #73 |
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I remain very surprised at the number of people that would like little more than for the BG to simply go away.
Whatever happened to "'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"? Last edited by jg0001; February 20, 2009 at 12:59 AM. |
February 18, 2009, 04:54 PM | #74 |
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What attempt to hold them?
Physical contact is risky. Shooting them seems the only other option unless you are a webslinger as compared to a gunslinger. Also, cases of an economically motivated criminal returning to an armed household aren't common.
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February 18, 2009, 05:08 PM | #75 |
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Why do we all assume the BG will just run on first sight of you? What if he won't? What if the BG WAS armed and you just drew on him first? Are you really going to let him just walk? Would ANYONE tolerate the same of the police?
God forbid any potential criminals come in here and read this thread. They would be emboldened to new heights of criminality. If even the gun nuts would just let a BG walk, what's to fear from anyone? Criminal mindset becomes: *Hell, I can try and steal stuff (or worse) and the worst thing that will happen is I just walk. What's the downside? Maybe you describe me to the police and maybe they bother looking for me?* Good thing you're all just thinking about your own safety and not the safety of anyone else in the neighborhood. I hope you don't live near me. I'm not saying I'd have the nerve or skill to hold someone at gunpoint, but I sure as hell wish I would do so if the situation came up. Do you think it will be any safer for the police to catch the BG later on compared to you already having him in your sights? |
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