PITA Gunsmith, what do I do?

[taylorce1]

Have a guy that I've been using for the last few years to do my FFL transfers. He has been working on becoming a gunsmith over the last year, and I let him do a small ring build for me in .300 Savage. Well took it to the range today and found out that the chamber is out of spec.

I got the scope on paper and was starting to shoot groups. I got through two sets of 3 shot groups and on the third I got a sticky bolt. Checked the case and my primer was a little flat and had started to back out. Worst thing about it, all of the case was stretched and the shoulder was moved forward around .010" and it almost looked like a rounded Ackley case.

The range I happened to be shooting at happened to be close by another gunsmith, Kevin Weaver of Weaver Rifles and I took it to him to have him confirm my suspicions. As soon as I showed him the fired cases and loaded ammunition he put a no-go gage into it. Bolt closed easily so it does have excessive head space. Kevin said that looking at the brass it appeared to be around .020 out of tolerance by putting a micrometer on the fired case. I used a pre chambered barrel that was .30-06 and his suspicion was that the barrel wasn't set back far enough when re-chambered.

Maybe I did the wrong thing by stopping off at another gunsmith to have him check it out, but I went by because he wasn't out of my way. Plus I figured a second opinion wouldn't hurt. When I told the guy who did the metal work what Kevin had said he got a little short with me. He tried to explain to me that the chamber was in spec, and that I needed to fire form my rounds to the chamber.

Plus then he asked me what kind of groups I got, and I told him my best one went around 2". He said that was good enough and he didn't understand what my problem was with it. I told him I wouldn't accept that kind of accuracy from a factory rifle, so I wasn't going to accept that from a build. Plus I told him that I was going to run into case separation problems if I kept stretching the brass that much, but his answer was just to neck size and not worry about it.

I knew he would pull this kind of attitude with me as like I've said I've known him for several years, and though we aren't best friends we are pretty cordial. I would have let Kevin fix it if he had the .300 Savage reamer, but he didn't. So if this rifle doesn't come back fixed I'll be looking for an new FFL/gunsmith to do my business with. Just wondering how I should approach this problem I'm having.

[smoakingun]

always be polite. It is never a good thing to be visibly angry with someone doing work for you, it seldom gets anything resolved. That being said, chambers are cut typically with a reamer specific to the caliber. If the chamber is out of spec, it may be that he used the wrong reamer, .020" is a lot out of spec, even for a dull reamer. I know there are a few other things that would cause an out of spec chamber, but I would start there. You knew he was just starting when you comissioned the project, with the right attitude from both of you, a willingness to work together, something good might happen, you won't spend any more money, he gets to save face, and learn something.

[taylorce1]

I was trying to be nice, but the smith refused to look at it or the fired brass. After 30 minutes of this back and forth that is when I busted out and dropped Kevin's name. I wasn't even going to mention him and probably shouldn't but I guess I got frustrated.

I hope it works out with us as I do like the guy, and I realize he is just starting out as a smith. Plus he does a great job on the little fixes and I could walk to his shop from my house inside of 15 minutes. It is nice having a guy that close when I need some stuff repaired.

May have jsut been a bad day on both of our parts.

[dawico]

If he thinks excessive headspace isn't an issue, then cut your ties to him. It sounds like he also doesn't care if you are satisfied, or that his work on that gun is shotty. If he won't make it right for free, then be done with him. I would also report him to the BBB, as he has created a dangerous gun for you. You can't cut him any slack because you know him or because he is close. What happens to the next guy that ruptures a case and burns his eyes out or blows his fingers off?

[Scorch]

The headspace issue could be an oopsie or a serious shortcoming on the part of your smith. But refusing to even look at it is definitely a serious issue. If a customer complains about a safety-related issue, it would behoove him to pay attention.

If you trust the other smith more, you can always rent reamers and headspace gauges.

[James K]

Lots of things wrong here. First, the guy is "working at becoming a gunsmith." It doesn't sound like he has had any training, any gunsmithing school or any apprenticeship. In other words, he is learning on his customers' guns. Not very good news for the customer, whether he is a nice guy or not (and he doesn't sound that nice, just convenient).

Then you get a barrel that has to be rethreaded and set back, always a bit tricky, then chambered for an obsolete cartridge. Did he have a .300 Savage reamer or did he try to make do with another reamer or combination of reamers that he happened to have rather than buying a reamer for one job?

You don't say what the action was, other than "small ring", which covers a wide variety and quality range.

Now accuracy is not really a matter of whether a rifle is factory or custom built; it is first and foremost a matter of the barrel itself. You bought a barrel of unknown quality and expected the gunsmith to make it shoot under 2 MOA (which in fact is quite acceptable for a hunting rifle). I doubt you asked him to clock the action and true everything up, bed the action and barrel and do all the other tricks used to get accuracy, since I doubt either he nor you knew how to do those things or that they should be done. Nor, I suspect, did you tell him that you were willing to pay for that kind of work; you just assumed that any "built" rifle would be super accurate.

And then you threw in his face the fact that you had taken the gun to someone else. Understandable, but hardly diplomatic or a way to win friends.

In other words, plenty of blame to go around. Since you know someone you believe to be a competent gunsmith, I suggest you have him work on the rifle and correct the problems. That will not be cheap or quick; most good gunsmiths have heavy backlogs.

Jim

[taylorce1]

Lots of things wrong here. First, the guy is "working at becoming a gunsmith." It doesn't sound like he has had any training, any gunsmithing school or any apprenticeship.

He is a machinist, and he is attending TSJC and taking his courses a week at a time when he can. I've done business with him since 2003, so yes he is a little convenient, and this is the first time I've ever had a problem with him.

Then you get a barrel that has to be rethreaded and set back, always a bit tricky, then chambered for an obsolete cartridge. Did he have a .300 Savage reamer or did he try to make do with another reamer or combination of reamers that he happened to have rather than buying a reamer for one job?

There was enough barrel shank left that he just cut off the old threads squared the face and started new. The reamer I rented from 4D Reamers with headspace gages. The reamer could have came in out of spec, but I just had it shipped to his shop.

You don't say what the action was, other than "small ring", which covers a wide variety and quality range.

Ovideo M93 action.

Now accuracy is not really a matter of whether a rifle is factory or custom built; it is first and foremost a matter of the barrel itself. You bought a barrel of unknown quality and expected the gunsmith to make it shoot under 2 MOA (which in fact is quite acceptable for a hunting rifle). I doubt you asked him to clock the action and true everything up, bed the action and barrel and do all the other tricks used to get accuracy, since I doubt either he nor you knew how to do those things or that they should be done. Nor, I suspect, did you tell him that you were willing to pay for that kind of work; you just assumed that any "built" rifle would be super accurate.

Yes we don't know who made the barrel, so I'll take the hit on that. Still doesn't change the fact that the chamber isn't right. That is my main issue with this rifle. I have no clue as to what this rifle is capable of until it is safe to shoot. If I need a new barrel I can get one, but I will not pay to have it installed and chambered again. I wanted him to check his work and decide what direction we needed to go. When a bolt locks up on a no-go gage then I have a problem.

I was willing to pay for any work he was willing to do. I asked to have the action blue printed, now if he cut some corners and didn't do it that is on him.

I fired 11 shots in this rifle. I shot 4 to get it on paper, two groups of 3, and the last shot the bolt got sticky. When I got the action open that is when I inspected the cases and could visibly see something is wrong. I have no idea of this rifle accuracy potential after 11 shots.

I did all the stock work myself to include bedding. Right now the action is spot bedded around the recoil lug, chamber and tang. The barrel is free floated and I'll try pressure bedding if I need to.

And then you threw in his face the fact that you had taken the gun to someone else. Understandable, but hardly diplomatic or a way to win friends.

I took it to another smith because I thought he might have the gages to check the headspace, and he did. I knew the smith who built it didn't own any because I had rented them for him. Plus I didn't even tell him about Kevin Weaver checking the headspace until he refused to look at the rifle or fired cases and told me I didn't know what I was talking about. By that time pretty much all diplomacy had failed, refusing to listen to a customer is not a way to keep business either.

In other words, plenty of blame to go around. Since you know someone you believe to be a competent gunsmith, I suggest you have him work on the rifle and correct the problems. That will not be cheap or quick; most good gunsmiths have heavy backlogs.

Yes there is plenty of blame on both sides, I could have handled the whole situation better. Plus I never asked for cheap I'm willing to pay for him to do the work. I do expect any safety problems to be fixed, and I do think that I shouldn't pay for this one. Plus I expect that if I take a rifle in to any gunsmith that they look at it first before they tell me that there isn't a problem and I don't know what I'm talking about.

[ZeroJunk]

I think if he does not want to correct the issue or even confirm to himself that there is an issue you should stick to doing transfers with him.

I would probably just take it to a pro and let him fix it considering the attitude the gentleman has taken.

If he simple refuses to do it I don't know what recourse you have other than small claims court over the fee. Only you can decide if that is worth the effort.

[Brian Pfleuger]

That would certainly be the last time I set foot in his shop. Screwing up the gun is one thing, denying it is another, refusing to verify it is worse yet. The only reason he got mad about you taking it somewhere else is because he knew his workmanship was suspect and he was caught.

It's really no different than my business. I couldn't care less if my customers try the pizza at my competition. They'll be back, I know it, because I make the best there is. Same with a rifle. If he did a good job and knew it then having the other guy look at it would be irrelevant.

Put all that together with a crap attitude and it's Goodbye "Amigo".

[taylorce1]

I got a phone call from the smith about an hour ago. He has the rifle and he agrees there is a problem in the chamber. He is going to get the head space gages and check it out. He said he will fix the problem.

He did apologize for for our confrontation and explained that he lost his Father yesterday morning. He will be flying out to CA for the funeral tomorrow and to settle his affairs. He explained as well that he would be at least two weeks in CA and that he would take care of it when he got back.

[James K]

Let us hope things work out OK. I can understand someone in that situation being upset for reasons that had nothing to do with the customer.

On rereading my post, I may have been a bit hard on the guy. But I have read dozens of posts saying, in essence, "I want to be gunsmith and it looks real easy and I got a file and a screwdriver and do I need anything else besides an FFL?" That kind of thing has made many people so disgusted with "gunsmiths" ruining their guns that they try to do the work themselves, often just ruining more guns.

But I feel obliged to make one more comment. That 1893 Spanish action is soft, and not very rigid. IMHO, it is not a good platform for building a "tack driver", though it might surprise both of us. I wish you luck.

Jim

[taylorce1]

But I feel obliged to make one more comment. That 1893 Spanish action is soft, and not very rigid. IMHO, it is not a good platform for building a "tack driver", though it might surprise both of us. I wish you luck.

I don't really care about tack driving accuracy, but if I can get it down to around 1.5" I'll be happy in the end. If and when it comes back with a correct chamber. I was just really upset that the fact that I had one group go 2" that seemed good enough for him even though I was having head space issues. Plus I'm not using a cartridge that will stretch the limits of a 93 action.

[smoakingun]

It's good to hear that there was a reason behind a bad attitude. Good luck!

[Hunter Customs]

taylorce1,
It's good to hear things are looking up between you and your smith.
Does all the brass fired in the gun that day show signs of a headspace problem?
If not could there be a possiblity that something changed in the rifle as you were shooting that may have created excess headspace?
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[taylorce1]

Every piece of brass had the same signs, slightly flattened and backed out primers, plus the shoulder and neck moved forward. If it was progressive I'd be inclined to think that the lugs had set back. Since they all looked that way I'm thinking there was a bad chamber.

[hooligan1]

All the technical jargain aside, If he's the one that did the metal work on your Yugo, he's got talent. Now back to the comment that 2" groups were "good enough", that statement doesn't set well with me. Now looseing his father is bad,,, you caught him on a bad day so slow down alittle with him, and remember next time when you have this same procedure done, maybe give it to the other smith and see what he's good at. IMO, of course!

[taylorce1]

All the technical jargain aside, If he's the one that did the metal work on your Yugo, he's got talent. Now back to the comment that 2" groups were "good enough", that statement doesn't set well with me. Now looseing his father is bad,,, you caught him on a bad day so slow down alittle with him, and remember next time when you have this same procedure done, maybe give it to the other smith and see what he's good at. IMO, of course!

Not the same smith, this guy just in the last year got his FFL that allows him to be a gunsmith. Before that he just had a regular FFL and did my transfers for that last 7 years. I don't expect benchrest accuracy out of a old M93 but I do expect sub 1.5" groups out of most of my rifles with the exception of my muzzle loaders and M94 Winchester.

I realize he is a new smith and an old M93 isn't the best thing to cut your teeth on. Plus even though the barrel was brand new we still don't know who made it. While I didn't set him up for failure, I didn't make his first Mauser build an easy one.

Most of his work was far above my expectations, but I do want and expect a properly cut chamber.

[Unclenick]

You may want to slug the barrel and make sure there aren't any egregious constrictions and to check the bore and groove diameters. A lot of less expensive barrels are not stress-relieved before contouring and will open up under the thinner parts of the contour. A lot of military barrels, if it is that, have generous bore and groove specs compared to most commercial barrels today. +/-1.5 thousandths is used on a lot of U.S. .30 cal barrels for both bore and groove. I'd also check it to see how straight it is?

[lefteyedom]

Soft steal on some Spanish Mauser is not a myth. I had a one that I did a cock on opening conversion. It worked great for about a dozen cycles of the bolt, then the metal of the bolt would deform. The bolt and receiver were very soft once past a very few file strokes.

If this is the case with your rifle I would suggest starting over K-hale Turkish Mauser it is large pattern 98 with a small ring barrel treads. At least you could salvage the barrel.
If the barrel and action are bad and the stock is good get an M48 and start over.

Be kind to your young smith. He is human.

[WESHOOT2]

I no longer care about anything but the end result (okay, I don't get on long waiting lists); I use the best professionals ONLY.
Or some small tasks I do myself.

I can't take the brain damage of hack 'smithing......even my own......

[taylorce1]

Be kind to your young smith. He is human.

I will, and we are working it out and will get the rifle fixed or scrap the project all together.