Length of pull.

dahermit · November 24, 2016, 09:07 PM

I do not understand why the common measurement for length of pull is measured from the inside of the elbow to the bend in the trigger finger. This seems counterintuitive to me in that the gun is not held or fired from that position, but from the mounted position in the pocket of the shoulder. When I measure from the inside of my elbow (bent at 90 degrees) to the bend in my trigger finger, I get exactly 13 inches. However, when I mount a gun in the shooting position I find that due to my diminutive stature (5' 7"), a gun with a 13 inch pull will have way too much length for me to get a good sight picture with my short arms...especially with a scope. A heavy hunting coat really exacerbates the length of pull problem. So, is that old, bend of the elbow to the bend in the trigger finger a lot of hooey? Ask'en for all short, stock crawlers out there.

**JohnKSa** · November 24, 2016, 10:32 PM

It's one of those rules of thumb that tends to work but isn't guaranteed to work. A person with unusual arm dimensions would likely find that it's not a great way to fit a gun for them.

The length of pull is actually the distance from the butt of the gun to the front of the trigger with the gun ready to fire (trigger in the forward/cocked position). The measurement of the bent elbow to the bend in the trigger finger is a handy way to estimate what length of pull will fit a particular shooter, but it's not foolproof.

dahermit · November 24, 2016, 11:41 PM

Quote:

The measurement of the bent elbow to the bend in the trigger finger is a handy way to estimate what length of pull will fit a particular shooter, but it's not foolproof.

And it sure as heck does not work for those guys whose knuckles drag on the ground when they walk.

g.willikers · November 25, 2016, 09:14 AM

Unless you're mister average, those kinds of generalities seldom apply.
Long guns really have to fit the individual, sights, stocks and all.
Competitor shot gunners know that all too well.

T. O'Heir · November 25, 2016, 01:59 PM

"...a lot of hooey..." Nope. Shouldering a yard stick like you do a rifle and looking where your finger is on the stick(isn't the bendy part though) is another way. Helps to measure with your hunting coat on though. Also helps if somebody else does the looking.
Absolute best way to test LOP is to put the rifle's butt in your elbow. Can you easily reach the trigger?
And if you're over 5" 6", you're mutated. snicker.

DaleA · November 25, 2016, 03:22 PM

I've always wanted to see a 'try' gun. As I understand it, it's not a real gun, it's a stock with a myriad of adjustments that can be adjusted to your cheek weld, eye position, length of pull...I don't even know all the adjustments they can measure for.

Anyway, you 'try' the dummy gun the salesman, with a critical eye, makes the adjustments until it is just right and then somebody configures your gun for you.

In some stories I've read about England, you make an appointment, go through the above procedure and then pick up your gun two years later---and that's if you put 'rush' on the job and pay extra.

And I suppose, heaven help you if you can weight or change any of your body dimensions during those two years.

jmr40 · November 25, 2016, 04:41 PM

Most peoples bodies are proportional. The distance from the bend of the elbow to the finger usually translates pretty close to accurate length of pull for most people. As said that is a good starting point, but not perfect.

FITASC · November 25, 2016, 04:57 PM

Quote:

I've always wanted to see a 'try' gun. As I understand it, it's not a real gun, it's a stock with a myriad of adjustments that can be adjusted to your cheek weld, eye position, length of pull...I don't even know all the adjustments they can measure for.

Those that are SxS or O/U ARE real guns that do indeed, fire. How would you know if the dimensions are correct otherwise?

Drop at heel, drop at comb, grip radius, pitch, cast if applicable, etc. are all measured with a try gun. This really is necessary for shotguns as the targets are moving and the gun MUST fit properly to ensure the best success.
Stock in the crook of the elbow is not a good indicator.

DaleA · November 25, 2016, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Those that are SxS or O/U ARE real guns that do indeed, fire. How would you know if the dimensions are correct otherwise?

Well, just shows what I know. Thanks for the info.

It might be cool to have a gun built for you specifically for your dimensions but I'd bet a lot of money that I (personally) would consider it waste of money.

My info about 'try' guns came, not from shooting sources but fictional stuff written about 'the English' of about 60 to 100 years ago which sometimes included their shooting habits. I bet I'm just as misinformed about their horse riding skills too.

FITASC · November 25, 2016, 07:43 PM

Quote:

but I'd bet a lot of money that I (personally) would consider it waste of money.

A proper fitting will take several hours and typically costs about $200 or so. A custom stock can be affordable or extravagant.
But then you'll have a gun that actually fits you.

larryh1108 · November 25, 2016, 09:20 PM

I think it's used as a guide so the shooter knows what he needs. Obviously, you know that a 13" LOP is not correct for you so when you are looking for the right LOP you should have figured out the correct measurement and work from there.

FrankenMauser · November 26, 2016, 04:22 PM

The 'elbow' measurement is so common because it gets an average person close very quickly without needing an actual firearm for the measurement.
"Close" is good enough for most people.

Quote:

Well, just shows what I know. Thanks for the info.

It might be cool to have a gun built for you specifically for your dimensions but I'd bet a lot of money that I (personally) would consider it waste of money.

My info about 'try' guns came, not from shooting sources but fictional stuff written about 'the English' of about 60 to 100 years ago which sometimes included their shooting habits. I bet I'm just as misinformed about their horse riding skills too.

Once you have a rifle that fits and balances with you like an extension of your body (rather than just a tool in your hands), you'll understand.

Having a rifle or shotgun stock made for you isn't all that expensive, either. The entire rifle/shotgun? Yes, very expensive. But just a new stock for an existing production firearm -- not that bad, unless you want high-end wood.

---

Just getting the correct length of pull can make a huge difference in how a rifle/shotgun points and feels.
Then add the correct comb, cast-off, camber, wrist angle and thickness, and it's another world.

I've been shooting factory LOP rifles and shotguns most of my life; but I've been working a few custom stocks the last few years. In the process, I discovered that I prefer a LOP of 14" to 15", depending upon the firearm design. That, alone, made a huge difference once applied to a few rifles (even if just adding a spacer under a butt pad/plate).

The biggest proof for me was a custom 444 Marlin that I built from a Marlin 336. Part of that project included rough-shaped blanks for stocks. I couldn't find any (affordable) sources for learning how to measure and then apply those measurements to shaping a stock. So, I just started test-fitting the butt stock and removing material that didn't feel like it belonged.
By the time I was done, the stock had cast-off, camber, comb, toe, and LOP dimensions that were as good as I could get them for fitting my body.
Aside from fitting the stock to my shoulder, I essentially inletted my face into a piece of wood.

Now, I grab that rifle and shoulder it, and it feels like an extension of my body, with my eye perfectly aligned with the iron sights.
(Oh... LOP on that straight-grip lever-gun is 15", for the record.)

**JohnKSa** · November 26, 2016, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Once you have a rifle that fits and balances with you like an extension of your body (rather than just a tool in your hands), you'll understand.

I have one rifle that is a perfect fit. When I bring it to my shoulder, the sights are aligned and pointing exactly where I'm looking.

Ironically, it's an AK that I bought during the AWB and it has a massive thumbhole stock on it to bypass the AWB restriction on pistol grips. It looks weird but it fits so well that I can't bring myself to swap it for a more conventional-looking AK stock.

O4L · November 26, 2016, 06:41 PM

That elbow to trigger finger measurement for me is 16".

I'm always looking for a way to extend the LOP on my rifles, but mostly I have just had to adapt to whatever the LOP on the rifle happens to be.

Evan Thomas · November 26, 2016, 11:06 PM

John, that's just embarrassing, that you'd rather have an ugly stock that fits you instead of a cool-looking one. What is wrong with you?

**JohnKSa** · November 26, 2016, 11:17 PM

I'd really rather have a cool-looking one that fits me.

But given the choice of one that fits and one that looks cool, I guess fit wins out. At least it has so far.

This website has a picture of a rifle similar to mine.
http://www.lionseek.com/guns/brand/c...-85m-ak-559001
Kind of interesting that the comments about the gun note that the stock has a longer length of pull and is more comfortable to shoot than a typical AK. Looks like at least one other person has noticed...

Evan Thomas · November 26, 2016, 11:45 PM

That stock is so ugly, it has its own unique cool factor. I could see it being comfortable to shoot, though.

It's clear that standard AK stocks were designed for people smaller than the average American male. (I wonder why that would be...) And it's interesting that the thumbhole stocks are that different in LOP.

AK103K · November 27, 2016, 08:33 AM

The standard AK's have a LOP of 13", as do most military rifles. They arent short stocked as youre often told. They have the same LOP as the M1/M14, M16/M16A1, etc.

I think a lot of the complaints about short also come form people not shouldering the AK's properly. Ive seen a lot of people trying to get a cheek weld on the rear portion or "comb" of the stock. That would make them feel real short. Your cheek belongs down on the narrow portion of the stock, with your nose at, or alongside the top cover. Very much like the "nose to the charging handle" weld of the M16s.

Having learned to shoot on military and older, iron sighted commercial guns, with appropriate stocks, I myself prefer the shorter LOP's and steel plated butt plates they normally come with.

Seems these days, everything is set up for a scope, with a longer LOP, higher comb, and a recoil pad. All of which are a detriment to most types of reactive shooting, or shooting from field positions.

Texas45 · November 27, 2016, 09:31 AM

I had to ditch the fixed wood stock on my AK as I could not shoot it comfortably.
Put an adjustable on it like my AR and it is much easier to shoot.
My SKS on the other hand is a perfect fit when I shoulder it.
Seems to fall naturally in place.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**44 AMP** · November 27, 2016, 04:33 PM

Quote:

The length of pull is actually the distance from the butt of the gun to the front of the trigger with the gun ready to fire (trigger in the forward/cocked position).

Length of pull is a measurement on the gun, NOT your arm.

butt in your elbow, finger reaches the trigger is a "field fit" to tell if the stock will fit well enough to work, not what is the best it can be.

Military arms ARE "short stocked" on purpose. One is to allow use by the shortest (average) soldiers, and the other is because a short stock can still be used effectively by someone larger, which is not the case when the reverse happens.

zeke · November 30, 2016, 07:21 AM

Have any number of stocks cut to provide 12.5 in lop. Bought extra stocks for some rifles so as not to affect the value. Like the a pistols length to trigger, minimal changes to as rifles lop have a out of scale effect on enhancing accuracy.

Like some do with a shotgun, close your eyes and bring rifle up to shoulder, than open your eyes. The sights/scope should be lined up. Having a pistol that fits your hand size is can also be very beneficial.

November 24, 2016, 09:07 PM	#1
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Length of pull. I do not understand why the common measurement for length of pull is measured from the inside of the elbow to the bend in the trigger finger. This seems counterintuitive to me in that the gun is not held or fired from that position, but from the mounted position in the pocket of the shoulder. When I measure from the inside of my elbow (bent at 90 degrees) to the bend in my trigger finger, I get exactly 13 inches. However, when I mount a gun in the shooting position I find that due to my diminutive stature (5' 7"), a gun with a 13 inch pull will have way too much length for me to get a good sight picture with my short arms...especially with a scope. A heavy hunting coat really exacerbates the length of pull problem. So, is that old, bend of the elbow to the bend in the trigger finger a lot of hooey? Ask'en for all short, stock crawlers out there.

November 24, 2016, 10:32 PM	#2
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,989	It's one of those rules of thumb that tends to work but isn't guaranteed to work. A person with unusual arm dimensions would likely find that it's not a great way to fit a gun for them. The length of pull is actually the distance from the butt of the gun to the front of the trigger with the gun ready to fire (trigger in the forward/cocked position). The measurement of the bent elbow to the bend in the trigger finger is a handy way to estimate what length of pull will fit a particular shooter, but it's not foolproof. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

November 25, 2016, 09:14 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Unless you're mister average, those kinds of generalities seldom apply. Long guns really have to fit the individual, sights, stocks and all. Competitor shot gunners know that all too well. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 25, 2016, 01:59 PM	#5
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...a lot of hooey..." Nope. Shouldering a yard stick like you do a rifle and looking where your finger is on the stick(isn't the bendy part though) is another way. Helps to measure with your hunting coat on though. Also helps if somebody else does the looking. Absolute best way to test LOP is to put the rifle's butt in your elbow. Can you easily reach the trigger? And if you're over 5" 6", you're mutated. snicker. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

November 25, 2016, 09:20 PM	#11
larryh1108 Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2008 Location: NC Posts: 813	I think it's used as a guide so the shooter knows what he needs. Obviously, you know that a 13" LOP is not correct for you so when you are looking for the right LOP you should have figured out the correct measurement and work from there. __________________ Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

November 25, 2016, 03:22 PM	#6
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	I've always wanted to see a 'try' gun. As I understand it, it's not a real gun, it's a stock with a myriad of adjustments that can be adjusted to your cheek weld, eye position, length of pull...I don't even know all the adjustments they can measure for. Anyway, you 'try' the dummy gun the salesman, with a critical eye, makes the adjustments until it is just right and then somebody configures your gun for you. In some stories I've read about England, you make an appointment, go through the above procedure and then pick up your gun two years later---and that's if you put 'rush' on the job and pay extra. And I suppose, heaven help you if you can weight or change any of your body dimensions during those two years.

November 25, 2016, 04:41 PM	#7
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Most peoples bodies are proportional. The distance from the bend of the elbow to the finger usually translates pretty close to accurate length of pull for most people. As said that is a good starting point, but not perfect.

November 26, 2016, 06:41 PM	#14
O4L Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2015 Posts: 646	That elbow to trigger finger measurement for me is 16". I'm always looking for a way to extend the LOP on my rifles, but mostly I have just had to adapt to whatever the LOP on the rifle happens to be.

November 26, 2016, 11:06 PM	#15
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	John, that's just embarrassing, that you'd rather have an ugly stock that fits you instead of a cool-looking one. What is wrong with you? __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

November 26, 2016, 11:17 PM	#16
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,989	I'd really rather have a cool-looking one that fits me. But given the choice of one that fits and one that looks cool, I guess fit wins out. At least it has so far. This website has a picture of a rifle similar to mine. http://www.lionseek.com/guns/brand/c...-85m-ak-559001 Kind of interesting that the comments about the gun note that the stock has a longer length of pull and is more comfortable to shoot than a typical AK. Looks like at least one other person has noticed... __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

November 26, 2016, 11:45 PM	#17
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	That stock is so ugly, it has its own unique cool factor. I could see it being comfortable to shoot, though. It's clear that standard AK stocks were designed for people smaller than the average American male. (I wonder why that would be...) And it's interesting that the thumbhole stocks are that different in LOP. __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

November 27, 2016, 08:33 AM	#18
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	The standard AK's have a LOP of 13", as do most military rifles. They arent short stocked as youre often told. They have the same LOP as the M1/M14, M16/M16A1, etc. I think a lot of the complaints about short also come form people not shouldering the AK's properly. Ive seen a lot of people trying to get a cheek weld on the rear portion or "comb" of the stock. That would make them feel real short. Your cheek belongs down on the narrow portion of the stock, with your nose at, or alongside the top cover. Very much like the "nose to the charging handle" weld of the M16s. Having learned to shoot on military and older, iron sighted commercial guns, with appropriate stocks, I myself prefer the shorter LOP's and steel plated butt plates they normally come with. Seems these days, everything is set up for a scope, with a longer LOP, higher comb, and a recoil pad. All of which are a detriment to most types of reactive shooting, or shooting from field positions.

November 27, 2016, 09:31 AM	#19
Texas45 Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2016 Posts: 223	I had to ditch the fixed wood stock on my AK as I could not shoot it comfortably. Put an adjustable on it like my AR and it is much easier to shoot. My SKS on the other hand is a perfect fit when I shoulder it. Seems to fall naturally in place. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

November 30, 2016, 07:21 AM	#21
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,671	Have any number of stocks cut to provide 12.5 in lop. Bought extra stocks for some rifles so as not to affect the value. Like the a pistols length to trigger, minimal changes to as rifles lop have a out of scale effect on enhancing accuracy. Like some do with a shotgun, close your eyes and bring rifle up to shoulder, than open your eyes. The sights/scope should be lined up. Having a pistol that fits your hand size is can also be very beneficial.