No Blood Trail, Rifle Not Powerful Enough - Page 4

tahunua001 · November 4, 2014, 09:46 PM

7mm-08 is not a 308 and we appear to be arguing the same point from opposite ends of the table. you are citing 7mm08 data using fast powders. I cited 308 with a relatively slow powder. I am advocating fast powders to maximize the effectiveness of the 16 inch barrel because of the poor performance of slow powders.

HiBC · November 5, 2014, 09:40 AM

I have witnessed a large bison bull taken with a 16 in bbl 308 from an FN FAL.A Veteran who had just returned from deployment,he double tapped the bull with 165 gr Barnes bullets.
Another bull was taken with a Sharps 45-70,and another with a 416 Rem mag.

All three animals were well hit.The 308 went down quickly from the double tap.

The 45-70 was a good hit,but he animal was still standing.After a few seconds,a second round was sent.Down.i
A 416 Rem has plenty of power.Bull was well hit,down.Other bulls coaxed him to his feet,using their horns,A few staggered steps,another round sent.Incredible impact.Perfect placement.He still stood 5 seconds or so before caving.
Bison are just big enough it takes them a bit to succumb.

The 16 in bbl 308 killed just as dead and just as fast as the 416.

By what stretch of the imagination does a hog or deer take more killng than a bison bull?

Is a 30-30 inadequate to kill a hog at the same ranges the OP discussed?

Would a 14 in bbl 308 or 35 Rem Contender kill a hog at 100 yds?

Will a 303 British reliably kill a moose?I think our Canadian friends can advise us.

How about a Krag? 300 Savage?

Yes!!Cutting the bbl lowers velocity.

For 150 yd hunting,2400 fps is just fine.

Some folks get good results with 7.62x39.

I do not believe in "stunt hunting" with marginal to inadequate cartridges.Use enough gun.But too many folks think more gun is the answer when other factors are the problem.

Ross Seifred went to Africa and took a cape buffalo with a hot loaded RugerBisley in 45 colt

Gunplummer · November 5, 2014, 12:52 PM

I will stick with my Corlokts in my medium cartridges. I had a bad experience with velocity and bullet type years back. I hit the deer through the lungs and was lucky and got another shot off through the shoulder. The first shot was close up and the bullet went through like I poked a pencil through the deer. When I shoot a deer in a soft spot, I want that bullet to open up. Just last year I stopped to talk to a young guy at a power line that had just shot a big doe with a 25-06. He was waiting for his father to come down to track it in the brush. He was absolutely sure he hit it in the lungs and it was dead. I looked where he said he shot it at and it probably was not 60 yards. I saw him later that day and they never got the deer. I would agree that since the high velocity rifle craze started, it would be a good idea to match your bullets to the cartridge. Where I hunt, 200 yards is a long shot. I stick with medium powered cartridges. Deer are not that tough and I am not afraid of them, although I know quite a few guys that sit in trees to hunt deer.

jimbob86 · November 5, 2014, 04:56 PM

Quote:

7mm-08 is not a 308 and we appear to be arguing the same point from opposite ends of the table. you are citing 7mm08 data using fast powders. I cited 308 with a relatively slow powder. I am advocating fast powders to maximize the effectiveness of the 16 inch barrel because of the poor performance of slow powders.

The WIN748 in your quoted data is faster* than the IMR4064 of my load .... I have a hard time believing a faster powder loses twice as much velocity as mine did ..... and I'm using a reduced load ..... some barrels are faster than others, and some are slower ..... some like some bullets, and choke on others ....

*how much faster, I don't know, but there are 8 powders between them on my burn chart .... with H335, RL12, and the 4895's (powders I am familiar with ..... ) listed as slower than the 748.

tahunua001 · November 5, 2014, 05:00 PM

negative ghostrider. according to Hodgdon, 748 is at the absolute slowest of the powders recommended for loading in 308. IMR3031 on the other hand is faster than w748, varget, imr4064, and h4895, all of which are about the most common powders used to load 308 or it's derivative cartridges.

IMR3031 is ranked 79th in terms of fastest powder burn out of 146 listed powders.
IMR4064 is ranked 94th.
W748 is ranked 102nd.

are you sure you're not thinking of winchester 296? ranked 64th?

jimbob86 · November 5, 2014, 05:16 PM

Interesting .....Lee, Sierra, Accurate list it right next to BL-C(2), ahead of the 4895's ...... Hodgdon puts it past 4064 ......

One thing is certain, though: there are better powders than 748 for short barrels, if that data is to be believed .....

tahunua001 · November 5, 2014, 05:18 PM

I feel more inclined to believe the company that manufactures all those powders than companies that just post load data for it. there is also the chance that the formulas have changed over time slightly altering the burn rates or even variance from lot to lot. however, I'm guessing the online references that hodgdon keeps are fairly up to date.

reynolds357 · November 5, 2014, 09:07 PM

I believe if you will get a good Chronny, you will find that even with a 16" barrel, with the bullet weight you are using, you will still obtain highest velocity with slower powders lit with magnum primers.

thallub · November 6, 2014, 09:16 AM

Sometimes stuff just happens. Shot a big doe early in the 2014 OK muzzleloader season. The bullet was the excellent .45 caliber 300 grain Hornady magnum in a crush rib sabot. The muzzle velocity of my load has been chronographed at just over 1,925 fps.

The deer was 85-100 yards from me when i fired. The bullet impacted with about 1,600 foot pounds of energy. Because of the smoke i could not tell where the deer went. Went to the spot where the deer was standing: No blood at all.

Deer was found about 100 yards from where it was shot: There was a big pool of blood on the ground. Looked for blood on the deer trail and grass between the two points and none was found. The bullet hit both lungs and a piece of bone or piece of the bullet lacerated the heart. The entry and exit holes were huge.

Entry:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...r/DSC01797.jpg

Exit:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...r/DSC01798.jpg

Longshot4 · November 10, 2014, 06:46 PM

With a 30-30 you should be using a 170Gr. bullet to get good penetration. Of course you need to hit the target (vitals). 150Yds is a good reach for the 30-30. Get rid of the 150Gr.

November 4, 2014, 09:46 PM	#76
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	7mm-08 is not a 308 and we appear to be arguing the same point from opposite ends of the table. you are citing 7mm08 data using fast powders. I cited 308 with a relatively slow powder. I am advocating fast powders to maximize the effectiveness of the 16 inch barrel because of the poor performance of slow powders. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

November 5, 2014, 05:00 PM	#80
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	negative ghostrider. according to Hodgdon, 748 is at the absolute slowest of the powders recommended for loading in 308. IMR3031 on the other hand is faster than w748, varget, imr4064, and h4895, all of which are about the most common powders used to load 308 or it's derivative cartridges. IMR3031 is ranked 79th in terms of fastest powder burn out of 146 listed powders. IMR4064 is ranked 94th. W748 is ranked 102nd. are you sure you're not thinking of winchester 296? ranked 64th? __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin Last edited by tahunua001; November 5, 2014 at 05:07 PM.

November 5, 2014, 05:18 PM	#82
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	I feel more inclined to believe the company that manufactures all those powders than companies that just post load data for it. there is also the chance that the formulas have changed over time slightly altering the burn rates or even variance from lot to lot. however, I'm guessing the online references that hodgdon keeps are fairly up to date. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

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November 5, 2014, 09:40 AM	#77
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I have witnessed a large bison bull taken with a 16 in bbl 308 from an FN FAL.A Veteran who had just returned from deployment,he double tapped the bull with 165 gr Barnes bullets. Another bull was taken with a Sharps 45-70,and another with a 416 Rem mag. All three animals were well hit.The 308 went down quickly from the double tap. The 45-70 was a good hit,but he animal was still standing.After a few seconds,a second round was sent.Down.i A 416 Rem has plenty of power.Bull was well hit,down.Other bulls coaxed him to his feet,using their horns,A few staggered steps,another round sent.Incredible impact.Perfect placement.He still stood 5 seconds or so before caving. Bison are just big enough it takes them a bit to succumb. The 16 in bbl 308 killed just as dead and just as fast as the 416. By what stretch of the imagination does a hog or deer take more killng than a bison bull? Is a 30-30 inadequate to kill a hog at the same ranges the OP discussed? Would a 14 in bbl 308 or 35 Rem Contender kill a hog at 100 yds? Will a 303 British reliably kill a moose?I think our Canadian friends can advise us. How about a Krag? 300 Savage? Yes!!Cutting the bbl lowers velocity. For 150 yd hunting,2400 fps is just fine. Some folks get good results with 7.62x39. I do not believe in "stunt hunting" with marginal to inadequate cartridges.Use enough gun.But too many folks think more gun is the answer when other factors are the problem. Ross Seifred went to Africa and took a cape buffalo with a hot loaded RugerBisley in 45 colt

November 5, 2014, 12:52 PM	#78
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I will stick with my Corlokts in my medium cartridges. I had a bad experience with velocity and bullet type years back. I hit the deer through the lungs and was lucky and got another shot off through the shoulder. The first shot was close up and the bullet went through like I poked a pencil through the deer. When I shoot a deer in a soft spot, I want that bullet to open up. Just last year I stopped to talk to a young guy at a power line that had just shot a big doe with a 25-06. He was waiting for his father to come down to track it in the brush. He was absolutely sure he hit it in the lungs and it was dead. I looked where he said he shot it at and it probably was not 60 yards. I saw him later that day and they never got the deer. I would agree that since the high velocity rifle craze started, it would be a good idea to match your bullets to the cartridge. Where I hunt, 200 yards is a long shot. I stick with medium powered cartridges. Deer are not that tough and I am not afraid of them, although I know quite a few guys that sit in trees to hunt deer.

November 5, 2014, 05:16 PM	#81
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	Interesting .....Lee, Sierra, Accurate list it right next to BL-C(2), ahead of the 4895's ...... Hodgdon puts it past 4064 ...... One thing is certain, though: there are better powders than 748 for short barrels, if that data is to be believed .....

November 5, 2014, 09:07 PM	#83
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,164	I believe if you will get a good Chronny, you will find that even with a 16" barrel, with the bullet weight you are using, you will still obtain highest velocity with slower powders lit with magnum primers.

November 6, 2014, 09:16 AM	#84
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	Sometimes stuff just happens. Shot a big doe early in the 2014 OK muzzleloader season. The bullet was the excellent .45 caliber 300 grain Hornady magnum in a crush rib sabot. The muzzle velocity of my load has been chronographed at just over 1,925 fps. The deer was 85-100 yards from me when i fired. The bullet impacted with about 1,600 foot pounds of energy. Because of the smoke i could not tell where the deer went. Went to the spot where the deer was standing: No blood at all. Deer was found about 100 yards from where it was shot: There was a big pool of blood on the ground. Looked for blood on the deer trail and grass between the two points and none was found. The bullet hit both lungs and a piece of bone or piece of the bullet lacerated the heart. The entry and exit holes were huge. Entry: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...r/DSC01797.jpg Exit: http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...r/DSC01798.jpg

November 10, 2014, 06:46 PM	#85
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	With a 30-30 you should be using a 170Gr. bullet to get good penetration. Of course you need to hit the target (vitals). 150Yds is a good reach for the 30-30. Get rid of the 150Gr.