Controlling a suspect

[buzz_knox]

In most states it is illegal for a non-cop to detain anyone. Asking how one should go about performing this illegal and ill-advised action is akin to asking how to make meth.

Be careful in making such sweeping assertions. Most (all?) states allow for citizens to detain those whom they witness committing felonies. Most refer to it as citizen's arrests, while North Carolina just provides a right for citizen's to detain someone. The key elements at issue are that must be for a felony (state laws vary on whether detention is allowed for non-felonies or acts not witnessed by the detainer) and the lack of civil/criminal immunity for civilians if they are wrong. Then again, if we are still discussing drawing weapons, then we've witnessed a felony and are probably entitled to shoot said person. So, both elements are probably satisfied in the scenarios under discussion.

[Mannlicher]

I am not a cop, and don't want to be one. If my life is under threat, and I fear I may be killed, I would act on that.
If the perp 'capitulates', and wants to leave, I am SO totally cool with that too.

[sw_florida]

if you have an intruder in your home at 2am, then the intruder is armed. Count on it. I guess that's why we here in Florida have the 'shoot to kill' law about intruders. In the newspaper, when ever there is a notice about intruders, they are always armed, and it's just a matter of seconds who gets the upper hand. Mostly they get the upper hand and demand to be given the guns and the money. To ask of the public to be 'nice' and 'talkative' to intruders is very costly to the society in the long run, in that good people get killed by those not so nice and talkative intruders. The few times I hear suspicious noise at night, I don't light up my house. I know where my wife and daughter sleep and I know their pattern of moving, should I see them in the dark kitchen. I'm not going turn on the light if a bearded shadow is coming at me, so that I can better 'judge' the situation, nor do I want to give away the little advance I have on him, which is knowing how my home looks like in the dark. Come that bearded shadow sailing in the dark and I'm just gonna pump lead. It's a reflex, call it 'conrolled' if you wish so. You have a fraction of a second in advance on an intruder in your own home. Use it to your adantage. If I'm in the jury, you are 'not guilty' for shooting an intruder to death, be he armed or not armed.

[R1145]

Realistically...

Survey sez....BUZZZ! NEVER shoot first and ask questions later. Only use lethal force when legally and morally justified. NEVER lie or fabricate a story (but keep your mouth shut until you've got a lawyer...).

OK, here's what I would do:

Start yelling "get down" in a forceful yet controlled manner. The guy will either run away (in which case don't shoot), attack you (in which case you may be justified to use lethal force) or, most likely, get down (in which case you wait for back-up to arrive).

If, when faced with a gun, the guy doesn't immediately comply or flee, I would get very nervous indeed.

Generally, I would not go "hands-on" until back-up is on scene, regardless of my skills. If back-up isn't close, then you need to make some decisions, I guess. Stay flexible. In real life, you can usually tell if someone is going to go with the program. Keep your distance, though.

[MyXD40]

pop em in the knee cap. Take them longer to run away.

[Lurper]

Survey sez....BUZZZ! NEVER shoot first and ask questions later. Only use lethal force when legally and morally justified.

Not to get off topic, but finding someone in your home at night armed or not does meet the legal requirement for use of deadly force in many states. In those same states, you have no legal requirement to ask or tell them anything.

[rantingredneck]

pop em in the knee cap. Take them longer to run away.

Save that for Hollywood. IF you are justified in using deadly force on someone don't waste it on their kneecap. He may not return the favor. IF he's running away then you are no longer justified in using deadly force. Careful when you post things like that. Fuel for the anti's.

[Tanzer]

pop em in the knee cap. Take them longer to run away.

You have now discharged a weapon in a confined area, in the dark. You now hear nothing but ringing. The perp hears nothing but ringing. Your wife and kids are screaming. The cops are now responding to "shots fired". You've taken away the possibility that he may decide to get out of your life for good. It's a little hard to be in control now, isn't it?

[buzz_knox]

pop em in the knee cap. Take them longer to run away.

So, you'd apply deadly force to control a suspect? I hope those who wrote you recommendations to be an LEO are willing to be character witnesses at your trial.

[JoeBlackSpade]

if you have an intruder in your home at 2am, then the intruder is armed. Count on it.

Absolutely the mindset I'd have.


If I see a bearded figure, stalking his way towards my bedroom, or across the hall towards my kids' rooms, I'm going to take immediate action on him. No doubt.

The thread, however, was about a rather different scenario: You have your weapon at the ready, you are moving through your house, investigating a "sound", and in an unexpected turn of events, you hear a stranger behind the couch say "don't shoot!". You spin around, and he's standing with his hands in the sky.

What do you do?

[Justme]

Tell him to keep his hands up and get out, he can wait on the cops at the curb.

[ATW525]

The thread, however, was about a rather different scenario: You have your weapon at the ready, you are moving through your house, investigating a "sound", and in an unexpected turn of events, you hear a stranger behind the couch say "don't shoot!". You spin around, and he's standing with his hands in the sky.

What do you do?

I'd tell him to leave, and he will leave regardless of whether he chooses to comply. It's just a matter of whether he walks out on his power or is carried out on a stretcher or inside a black plastic bag.

There's just no way I'd try to detain a stranger in my house at gunpoint. He'd be looking for every chance he can to turn the tables on me, because he won't want to go to jail... that's an extremely dangerous situation that I don't want to be in.

[easyG]

You have your weapon at the ready, you are moving through your house, investigating a "sound", and in an unexpected turn of events, you hear a stranger behind the couch say "don't shoot!". You spin around, and he's standing with his hands in the sky.

What do you do?

I would shoot him, no question about it.

[Powderman]

I would shoot him, no question about it.

Have your attorney on retainer before you do. In most States, this is called Murder, or Manslaughter.

[Justme]

In which states is shooting someone , unknown to you and at night, who invaded your home considered murder?

Oddly enough I find this scenario more acceptable than the actual scenario where the guy shot someone through the door.

Of course if it's your daughter's new future husband whom you haven't met yet thanksgiving might be a bit tense this year.

[rantingredneck]

In NC, if the individual is inside your home, but not a threat (i.e. hands in the air saying "don't shoot") then you better not shoot. If he's in the act of breaking into your house then you can use deadly force to stop him. Already inside and the rules change.

[BillCA]

Well, after 7 pages and 165 replies, it's obvious that a lot of folks have NOT given much thought ...much less done any training... on what they would do if they actually caught an intruder already inside the home.

ATW525 makes a very valid point;

There's just no way I'd try to detain a stranger in my house at gunpoint. He'd be looking for every chance he can to turn the tables on me, because he won't want to go to jail... that's an extremely dangerous situation that I don't want to be in.

And I will admit that it might make a difference depending on where you stop him and the layout of the home. In some homes, you may be hard pressed to let him get to an exit without losing sight of him around a corner. In some split-level homes he might jump down a short flight of stairs into the garage...or your son's room. Your particular circumstances will dictate if you can safely "direct" him out the door.

Justme recently posted

Tell him to keep his hands up and get out, he can wait on the cops at the curb.

Which I see as a flippant remark to saying he'd let the guy go.

Mannlicher added

If the perp 'capitulates', and wants to leave, I am SO totally cool with that too.

Certainly getting the guy out of your house has merit. But just what it is that you propose to do? Just tell him "Get out"... and leave the route he chooses and where he puts his hands up to him? I'm asking for some of the details because simply saying "I'd tell him to get out" doesn't give us much thought for maintaining control while he's getting out. (At least Justme said the guy had to keep his hands up on the way out. Add 1 point).

Originally Posted by justme

Unless you are willing to shoot a guy in the back who is unwilling to stay put what are you going to do? If you are willing to shoot someone in the back rather than let them leave your house then you probably shouldn't be allowed to own anything more dangerous than a baseball bat

.

This may shock you, since I'm told by some that I have a penchant for sounding rational and reasonable on-line...but if I challenge and intruder and he suddenly bolts for cover, yes I'd shoot him in the back, side, front or top. Even if he jumps behind the sofa or heads towards the study, he's just become a lead magnet. If he's near the door and turns to exit, I may let him get away, but only if I can perceive that he's attempting to exit the premisis.

I have to agree with others, like JoeBlackSpade and even (to some extent) EasyG -- an intruder inside your home is a potentially serious threat. If you know the person doesn't belong there and command them to not move, but they make a sudden move you must make a decision in about 0.4 seconds.

But because someone is potentially a threat, doesn't mean the necessarily are a threat. That guy who pushed the screen out and slithered in the partially opened kitchen window -- who puts his hands up saying "don't shoot!" when you show up -- may have barely escaped a pair of thugs intent on doing him in.

Two more things to think about...

1. What do you do if the intruder is a woman? I'm not talking a woman who is dressed like a south-of-the-tracks trailer trash either. Miss/Mrs/Mz average looking woman.

2. When do you turn on the lights?

[ActivShootr]

but if I challenge and intruder and he suddenly bolts for cover, yes I'd shoot him in the back, side, front or top.

While civil law provides that one is entitled to use force to defend his property, that force must be reasonable in light of the circumstances. Deadly force is only allowed in situations where one has an immediate fear for his saftey or the saftey of others. If you can prove an intruder is armed, then you are justified in shooting him or her. If you shoot an unarmed person, chances are a jury of your peers will convict you of at least manslaughter. If you do happen to go free, a civil suit will most likely ensue. The safest bet is to order the intruder to the floor. If he/she is unarmed, they most likely will comply. If they are armed, make every shot count.

[Lurper]

If you can prove an intruder is armed, then you are justified in shooting him or her. If you shoot an unarmed person, chances are a jury of your peers will convict you of at least manslaughter.

Not true. A jury more than likely would never get to hear the case since in most states you wouldn't be charged. Most states do not require that the intruder be armed for the shooting to be justified. Many states also shield you from civil suit if you are not crimimally charged. It's important to know your state's laws.

[Thumper]

If you can prove an intruder is armed, then you are justified in shooting him or her. If you shoot an unarmed person, chances are a jury of your peers will convict you of at least manslaughter. If you do happen to go free, a civil suit will most likely ensue.

Patently false in Texas. Not only are you protected from prosecution, you are specifically protected against civil liability.

Please be more careful what you post.

[Mannlicher]

Mannlicher added

Quote:
If the perp 'capitulates', and wants to leave, I am SO totally cool with that too.

Certainly getting the guy out of your house has merit. But just what it is that you propose to do? Just tell him "Get out"... and leave the route he chooses and where he puts his hands up to him? I'm asking for some of the details because simply saying "I'd tell him to get out" doesn't give us much thought for maintaining control while he's getting out. (At least Justme said the guy had to keep his hands up on the way out. Add 1 point).

Bill, I don't care much about his method of egress. Watching his every move, of course, is a given. That sort of establishes some measure of control. If he leaves, I am satisfied. I have a smaller house, its not easy to leave.
Unlike so many, I have been in that position. I did not kill the guy, and he left. Police found him about a month later.

Next time my friend, I will try to call ya, and get a real expert's input. (if you get my drift)

[ATW525]

Certainly getting the guy out of your house has merit. But just what it is that you propose to do? Just tell him "Get out"... and leave the route he chooses and where he puts his hands up to him? I'm asking for some of the details because simply saying "I'd tell him to get out" doesn't give us much thought for maintaining control while he's getting out. (At least Justme said the guy had to keep his hands up on the way out. Add 1 point).

The problem with trying to maintain control over him while he leaves is that he might not be alone. It's very possible his initial, "Don't shoot me," reaction was intended to alert a companion. With that in mind, so long as he's making his way to an exit with haste and not heading in the direction of family members, then I'm happy. Any other reaction from him will likely end up in him getting shot the ground without hesitation.

If he does take off, I'd move into a position to protect any family members while waiting for the police to arrive.

[ActivShootr]

Please be more careful what you post.

I only posted after researching several law related web sites. If I am wrong then so be it. Wouldnt be the first time. I would rather be wrong and free than wrong and in jail. Plus I am not in TX so the laws of that state dont really apply to me.

[R1145]

...finding someone in your home at night armed or not does meet the legal requirement for use of deadly force in many states. In those same states, you have no legal requirement to ask or tell them anything.

Lurper is absolutely correct, and it's good that the law has evolved on this point. What I meant was, we are talking about killing someone here: There is a moral duty to be absolutely certain of the threat before firing. What if it's a family member or some other person who means you no harm, even though they're in your house at 4am?

Even if you are legally justified, don't shoot unless you need to. If I found someone in my house under those circumstances, I would still issue a verbal warning, probably. I feel that in the long run, the odds of me being able to gain compliance and not have to shoot outweigh the tactical disadvantage.

I would hate to have a "bad" shooting on my conscience, legal or not.

[BillCA]

Mannlicher

Next time my friend, I will try to call ya, and get a real expert's input. (if you get my drift)

I hear ya big guy! Good call.

ATW525

If he does take off, I'd move into a position to protect any family members while waiting for the police to arrive.

Like Mannlicher, you get it too.

ActivShootr

While civil law provides that one is entitled to use force to defend his property, that force must be reasonable in light of the circumstances. Deadly force is only allowed in situations where one has an immediate fear for his saftey or the saftey of others. If you can prove an intruder is armed, then you are justified in shooting him or her. If you shoot an unarmed person, chances are a jury of your peers will convict you of at least manslaughter. If you do happen to go free, a civil suit will most likely ensue.

I understand what you are trying to say and in your state that may be the case. Even if it is the case, the justification can be made for shooting an intruder whom you have stopped at gunpoint when they make a sudden move. To wit;

1. Burglary, generally, is an felonious entry to commit a crime, usually theft.
2. A burglar's motive, generally, is theft for profit.
3. Burglars do not wish to be caught, injured or killed.
4. A "rational" burglar avoids homes where people are present to avoid capture.
5. Because most people are home overnight, burglars most often burgle homes in the daytime.
6. It is common for a burglar to arm himself with a knife from the victim's kitchen and discard it before leaving.
7. Most people are in their homes overnight.
8. Burglarizing a house at night is, therefore, not a rational act.
9. A nighttime burglar in an occupied home is either unafraid of capture or does not have theft as his main motivation.
10. A nighttime burglar, when caught at gunpoint, who fails to heed warnings or commands is, by definition, uncontrollable.

Thus, I have an irrational felon, very possibly armed with a knife, inside my home in the darkness of night, unafraid of either me or my gun, who is uncontrollable and can gain access to my family and me.

You bet I'm gonna shoot.
Rapidly and repeatedly.
Until the threat is neutralized or controlled.
If necessary, I will retreat to a safe point to prevent him from accessing my family or getting to me.