What's the TRUE progressive method???

Chris H · March 23, 1999, 03:48 PM

Hey, I've got a Lee1000 and the moment I got it I yanked out the size/deprime die and put in in my old single stage press. I take my old brass and tumble lightly, then size and deprime and clean all my primer pockets out and then tumble some more. Then after that I prime them by hand because I really like to know that they are in there. Once I've done that, I throw all my cases into the ol' 1000 and it pops some powder in and then throws a bullet on top.

How do you accomplish cleaning the case and primer pocket when you load the way they say to load? I mean, do people really just throw their fired brass in and reload them all dirty like that?

I guess that's the main reason I've never had trouble w/ my Lee 1000 (I've never even used the primer seater).

If anyone does it the way that I haven't could you post how you do it and some results?

Thanks

Daniel Watters · March 23, 1999, 11:20 PM

I use a similar method with my Pro1000. I don't prime on mine either, after seeing all of the problems that I seen with other Pro1000 users. Here's my method:

1) Tumble clean brass
2) Insert a tool head with the sizing/decapping die into the Pro1000
3) Resize/decap all of the brass
4) Tumble again
5) Run all of the empty brass through a Max Cartridge Gauge...no sense wasting a primer on a bad case
6) Prime brass with a hand-held primer seater
7) Replace the tool head holding the sizing die with a separate tool head holding the powder measure, seater, and crimp dies
8) Finish reloading
9) Gauge the loaded rounds

Hey, I'm an anal reloader...I had a factory remanufactured 10mm blow out in my Delta Elite, and I don't wish to repeat the experience. I got lucky: the pistol was not broken, and my wounds were minor and few (the equivalents of bloody shaving nicks).

[This message has been edited by Daniel Watters (edited March 24, 1999).]

JMC · March 24, 1999, 02:10 PM

Just buy a Dillon machine and forget all the extra moves and become "progressive"

------------------
Jim

"NJ...The First Communist State in the Union"

Michael Carlin · March 24, 1999, 04:20 PM

JMC,

You miss the point, how does one use the capability of a progressive if loading highest quality ammunition?

My service rifle (5.56mm NATO) loads are tumbled, lubed, sized, degreased, trimmed to length, primer pockets uniformed, flashholes deburred, primed with a Dillon, charges are thrown then every charge is weighed to .05 grains, back into the Dillon, seated, and then they are boxed. This requires three different trips to the press for each case!

My 600 yard ammunition seems to shoot about 1 minute with iron sights. Which is to say that a progressive may not be the most effective way to build super accurate bottle neck competition ammunition.

By the way, I currently only own one press, a Dillon 550B which started life at my house as a 450 the month Mike Dillon went Direct way back in the very early 80's.

------------------
Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael

[This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited March 24, 1999).]

Chris H · March 24, 1999, 04:28 PM

I agree with Mike. Like I said, I've tried to make the ammo directly from fired brass and I just don't feel good about it. I think progressives are neat but only for dumping the powder and seating the bullet.

I just can't see any way to throw fired brass in and have it come out as good as the ammo I feel I turn out now.

Thanks for your input.

JMC · March 24, 1999, 07:27 PM

I didn't think I missed the point at all. It was about quality ammo on a progressive loading tool. No?

I tumble my handgun brass (.40 and 9mm) for 2-3 hours in corn cobb media w/a couple of caps full of Dillons Rapid Polish 290.

Then, it's all the way on the Dillon 550B.

I have loaded multiple 1000's of rounds in this manner.

The ammo I load has been good enough to win me 2 Glocks and 2 $100 second place prizes in GSSF shooting last year.

My Brother using a Dillon 1050 and loads his 9mm's in the same manner. He has used his ammo to win 4 Glocks or maybe 5.

He loaded .40's on the 550B when he was shooting IPSC and shot into a Master rating.

Another shooter in out group also uses a 1050 for his 9mm's and .40's and has won 5 Glocks in 2 years. He also is a Master IPSC shooter.

Is this not quality enough?

The only handgun round that I load differently is the .357SIG due to the fact that I do not have a TC die for it.

I lube, resize/decap the SIG round, tumble it for 30 min. or so and then onto the 550B and away I go. It is first rate, quality ammo.

I load .223 match ammo in the same manner on the 550B and can get sub-minute of angle groups with it.

Is this not quality or did I miss another point?

------------------
Jim

"NJ...The First Communist State in the Union"

[This message has been edited by JMC (edited March 24, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by JMC (edited March 24, 1999).]

Michael Carlin · March 24, 1999, 09:52 PM

JMC,

I have loaded thousands(many maybe a hundred thousand) rounds of pistol and I agree with you 100% for pistol! But.... you miss the point!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My service rifle (5.56mm NATO) loads....Which is to say that a progressive may not be the most effective way to build super accurate bottle neck competition ammunition. [/quote]

No matter how you slice it, "bottle neck" rifle ammo, even in a carbide die, needs to be lubed. Then before it can be shot, degreased.

Serious rifle ammunition requires that all brass be prepared with several steps that pistol shooters can skip! Testing at mid-range (600 yards)shows that the gain for this IS significant!

For a highpower rifle bottle neck case shooter a preogressive may not be the ticket to reloading speed that we pistoleros enjoy.

Bottle neck cases need trimming to length, and if your use military brass (I like Lake City) primer pocket crimp needs to be swaged or reamed. The primer pocket should be uniformed, and the flashhole deburred.

I know that some very successful high power shooters may not do these things, but a great many of us are! We are taking lessons from the bench rest boys in the production of ammunition that utilizes the full potential of the rifle.

JMC you and your brother are undoubtedly very good shooters, but Service Rifle is a game won not with a faster time, but with more "X"s and tens!.

Apples (pistols) and oranges (rifles)!

------------------
Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael

[This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited March 24, 1999).]

JMC · March 25, 1999, 06:54 AM

Michael,

Yes, I definately agree on the rifle and that's what I indicated above in the explanation after the .357SIG case prep.

Possibly I missed the point on rifle.

I full length size/deprime the cases, tumble them, clean the primer pockets, trim if needed and then load them on the 550B.

A couple of years ago I compared my match grade .308 rounds loaded on an RCBS Rockchucker w/each charged weighed on a PACT electronic scale to rounds loaded after the case "prep" indicated above and then loaded on the 550B.

Fired through a NM M1A at 300 yards standing, sitting and prone on two seperated targets, there was no measurable difference between the two loads.

This may or may not hold true at 600 yards and I understand that.

------------------
Jim

"NJ...The First Communist State in the Union"

Chris H · March 25, 1999, 10:44 AM

So, JMC,

you really think it doesn't affect things to not do all the extras by hand? I've never done a field test but my press doesn't work either so it doesn't matter, huh?

Maybe I'm just too anal to not do all the trimming/cleaning, etc...

Maybe santa will bring me a dillon this year. i don't reload for rifle at all (you have to own one) but pistol seems like progressive might be ok. rifle seems a little out there.

JMC · March 25, 1999, 11:48 AM

Ok Chris,

I am a firm believer in doing all the extras by hand when and if needed.

With handgun ammo, it isn't needed.
Period. My personal results have proven this to my satisfaction.

With rifle, I wouldn't even consider loading my ammo for any of my hunting bolt guns on a Dillon. Each case is FL sized, trimmer and primer pockets cleaned.

I have even gone as far as to uniform the primer pockets on some rounds and to ream the inside of the case necks.

I have a Rem. M700 VSSF in .308 that I load only one load for and it is used to punch paper. I load every round from the ground up performing each step by hand including weighing every powder charge on an electronic scale.

For my M1A and HBAR AR-15 I have tried different approaches to loading large numbers of rounds for these weapons.

Read my post slowly about the 300 yard test w/.308 rounds loaded both ways.

Earlier this year I purchased some new Federal .223 brass and loaded it with the new Sierra 77gr. HPBT bullet and Federal 205M primers on the Dillon 550B.

100 yard 10 shot groups using the HBAR w/a 10x Leupold scope over a Hart rest gave me 3/4" groups and a couple that hovered around the 1/2" mark. Not too bad for "progressive" machine loading.

300 yard groups were right in there at MOA and I was plenty happy with that.

Then the brass was tumbled, FL sized, not trimmed, primer pockets cleaned and loaded on the 550B and yes, the primers were seated on it also.

Fix your press and try doing some real testing for yourself you may be surprised at your results. ??

------------------
Jim

"NJ...The First Communist State in the Union"

[This message has been edited by JMC (edited March 25, 1999).]

bear · March 29, 1999, 06:22 PM

FWIW I've loaded over a 100,000 .45 loads on a Lee 1000 with very good luck, would tumble and let the loader do all the rest, loaded for Bulls Eye and had very good results, I tried the seperate depriming,cleaning,ect and
found not enough improvement to make it worth it. Bottle neck on the other hand were a different story, I deprime, then do all the sizing to length, triming and cleaning primer pockets on a small lathe I have, then use a single stage press to complete loading. I think the big difference is the range your shooting, a .45 at 50 yrd that shoots a 2" group is ok, a rifle, not so good. Also agree
about the Dillon, bought one almost a year ago and don't think it loads all that better of a round but it sure loads it nicer and with less trouble, my Lee would junk about
2-4 a hundred and the Dillon 650 gets about 1-2 every 3-400 and loads twice as fast, easier too.

March 23, 1999, 03:48 PM	#1
Chris H Junior Member Join Date: March 23, 1999 Location: el paso, tx usa Posts: 14	Hey, I've got a Lee1000 and the moment I got it I yanked out the size/deprime die and put in in my old single stage press. I take my old brass and tumble lightly, then size and deprime and clean all my primer pockets out and then tumble some more. Then after that I prime them by hand because I really like to know that they are in there. Once I've done that, I throw all my cases into the ol' 1000 and it pops some powder in and then throws a bullet on top. How do you accomplish cleaning the case and primer pocket when you load the way they say to load? I mean, do people really just throw their fired brass in and reload them all dirty like that? I guess that's the main reason I've never had trouble w/ my Lee 1000 (I've never even used the primer seater). If anyone does it the way that I haven't could you post how you do it and some results? Thanks

March 23, 1999, 11:20 PM	#2
Daniel Watters Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Location: USA Posts: 644	I use a similar method with my Pro1000. I don't prime on mine either, after seeing all of the problems that I seen with other Pro1000 users. Here's my method: 1) Tumble clean brass 2) Insert a tool head with the sizing/decapping die into the Pro1000 3) Resize/decap all of the brass 4) Tumble again 5) Run all of the empty brass through a Max Cartridge Gauge...no sense wasting a primer on a bad case 6) Prime brass with a hand-held primer seater 7) Replace the tool head holding the sizing die with a separate tool head holding the powder measure, seater, and crimp dies 8) Finish reloading 9) Gauge the loaded rounds Hey, I'm an anal reloader...I had a factory remanufactured 10mm blow out in my Delta Elite, and I don't wish to repeat the experience. I got lucky: the pistol was not broken, and my wounds were minor and few (the equivalents of bloody shaving nicks). [This message has been edited by Daniel Watters (edited March 24, 1999).]

March 24, 1999, 02:10 PM	#3
JMC Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Location: FL Posts: 809	Just buy a Dillon machine and forget all the extra moves and become "progressive" ------------------ Jim "NJ...The First Communist State in the Union"

March 24, 1999, 04:20 PM	#4
Michael Carlin Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Fredericksburg, VA USA Posts: 193	JMC, You miss the point, how does one use the capability of a progressive if loading highest quality ammunition? My service rifle (5.56mm NATO) loads are tumbled, lubed, sized, degreased, trimmed to length, primer pockets uniformed, flashholes deburred, primed with a Dillon, charges are thrown then every charge is weighed to .05 grains, back into the Dillon, seated, and then they are boxed. This requires three different trips to the press for each case! My 600 yard ammunition seems to shoot about 1 minute with iron sights. Which is to say that a progressive may not be the most effective way to build super accurate bottle neck competition ammunition. By the way, I currently only own one press, a Dillon 550B which started life at my house as a 450 the month Mike Dillon went Direct way back in the very early 80's. ------------------ Ni ellegimit carborundum esse! Yours In Marksmanship http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished michael [This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited March 24, 1999).]

March 24, 1999, 04:28 PM	#5
Chris H Junior Member Join Date: March 23, 1999 Location: el paso, tx usa Posts: 14	I agree with Mike. Like I said, I've tried to make the ammo directly from fired brass and I just don't feel good about it. I think progressives are neat but only for dumping the powder and seating the bullet. I just can't see any way to throw fired brass in and have it come out as good as the ammo I feel I turn out now. Thanks for your input.

March 24, 1999, 07:27 PM	#6
JMC Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Location: FL Posts: 809	I didn't think I missed the point at all. It was about quality ammo on a progressive loading tool. No? I tumble my handgun brass (.40 and 9mm) for 2-3 hours in corn cobb media w/a couple of caps full of Dillons Rapid Polish 290. Then, it's all the way on the Dillon 550B. I have loaded multiple 1000's of rounds in this manner. The ammo I load has been good enough to win me 2 Glocks and 2 $100 second place prizes in GSSF shooting last year. My Brother using a Dillon 1050 and loads his 9mm's in the same manner. He has used his ammo to win 4 Glocks or maybe 5. He loaded .40's on the 550B when he was shooting IPSC and shot into a Master rating. Another shooter in out group also uses a 1050 for his 9mm's and .40's and has won 5 Glocks in 2 years. He also is a Master IPSC shooter. Is this not quality enough? The only handgun round that I load differently is the .357SIG due to the fact that I do not have a TC die for it. I lube, resize/decap the SIG round, tumble it for 30 min. or so and then onto the 550B and away I go. It is first rate, quality ammo. I load .223 match ammo in the same manner on the 550B and can get sub-minute of angle groups with it. Is this not quality or did I miss another point? ------------------ Jim "NJ...The First Communist State in the Union" [This message has been edited by JMC (edited March 24, 1999).] [This message has been edited by JMC (edited March 24, 1999).]

March 24, 1999, 09:52 PM	#7
Michael Carlin Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Fredericksburg, VA USA Posts: 193	JMC, I have loaded thousands(many maybe a hundred thousand) rounds of pistol and I agree with you 100% for pistol! But.... you miss the point! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My service rifle (5.56mm NATO) loads....Which is to say that a progressive may not be the most effective way to build super accurate bottle neck competition ammunition. [/quote] No matter how you slice it, "bottle neck" rifle ammo, even in a carbide die, needs to be lubed. Then before it can be shot, degreased. Serious rifle ammunition requires that all brass be prepared with several steps that pistol shooters can skip! Testing at mid-range (600 yards)shows that the gain for this IS significant! For a highpower rifle bottle neck case shooter a preogressive may not be the ticket to reloading speed that we pistoleros enjoy. Bottle neck cases need trimming to length, and if your use military brass (I like Lake City) primer pocket crimp needs to be swaged or reamed. The primer pocket should be uniformed, and the flashhole deburred. I know that some very successful high power shooters may not do these things, but a great many of us are! We are taking lessons from the bench rest boys in the production of ammunition that utilizes the full potential of the rifle. JMC you and your brother are undoubtedly very good shooters, but Service Rifle is a game won not with a faster time, but with more "X"s and tens!. Apples (pistols) and oranges (rifles)! ------------------ Ni ellegimit carborundum esse! Yours In Marksmanship http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished michael [This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited March 24, 1999).]

March 25, 1999, 06:54 AM	#8
JMC Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Location: FL Posts: 809	Michael, Yes, I definately agree on the rifle and that's what I indicated above in the explanation after the .357SIG case prep. Possibly I missed the point on rifle. I full length size/deprime the cases, tumble them, clean the primer pockets, trim if needed and then load them on the 550B. A couple of years ago I compared my match grade .308 rounds loaded on an RCBS Rockchucker w/each charged weighed on a PACT electronic scale to rounds loaded after the case "prep" indicated above and then loaded on the 550B. Fired through a NM M1A at 300 yards standing, sitting and prone on two seperated targets, there was no measurable difference between the two loads. This may or may not hold true at 600 yards and I understand that. ------------------ Jim "NJ...The First Communist State in the Union"

March 25, 1999, 10:44 AM	#9
Chris H Junior Member Join Date: March 23, 1999 Location: el paso, tx usa Posts: 14	So, JMC, you really think it doesn't affect things to not do all the extras by hand? I've never done a field test but my press doesn't work either so it doesn't matter, huh? Maybe I'm just too anal to not do all the trimming/cleaning, etc... Maybe santa will bring me a dillon this year. i don't reload for rifle at all (you have to own one) but pistol seems like progressive might be ok. rifle seems a little out there.

March 25, 1999, 11:48 AM	#10
JMC Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Location: FL Posts: 809	Ok Chris, I am a firm believer in doing all the extras by hand when and if needed. With handgun ammo, it isn't needed. Period. My personal results have proven this to my satisfaction. With rifle, I wouldn't even consider loading my ammo for any of my hunting bolt guns on a Dillon. Each case is FL sized, trimmer and primer pockets cleaned. I have even gone as far as to uniform the primer pockets on some rounds and to ream the inside of the case necks. I have a Rem. M700 VSSF in .308 that I load only one load for and it is used to punch paper. I load every round from the ground up performing each step by hand including weighing every powder charge on an electronic scale. For my M1A and HBAR AR-15 I have tried different approaches to loading large numbers of rounds for these weapons. Read my post slowly about the 300 yard test w/.308 rounds loaded both ways. Earlier this year I purchased some new Federal .223 brass and loaded it with the new Sierra 77gr. HPBT bullet and Federal 205M primers on the Dillon 550B. 100 yard 10 shot groups using the HBAR w/a 10x Leupold scope over a Hart rest gave me 3/4" groups and a couple that hovered around the 1/2" mark. Not too bad for "progressive" machine loading. 300 yard groups were right in there at MOA and I was plenty happy with that. Then the brass was tumbled, FL sized, not trimmed, primer pockets cleaned and loaded on the 550B and yes, the primers were seated on it also. Fix your press and try doing some real testing for yourself you may be surprised at your results. ?? ------------------ Jim "NJ...The First Communist State in the Union" [This message has been edited by JMC (edited March 25, 1999).]

March 29, 1999, 06:22 PM	#11
bear Member Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Mpls, Minn Posts: 56	FWIW I've loaded over a 100,000 .45 loads on a Lee 1000 with very good luck, would tumble and let the loader do all the rest, loaded for Bulls Eye and had very good results, I tried the seperate depriming,cleaning,ect and found not enough improvement to make it worth it. Bottle neck on the other hand were a different story, I deprime, then do all the sizing to length, triming and cleaning primer pockets on a small lathe I have, then use a single stage press to complete loading. I think the big difference is the range your shooting, a .45 at 50 yrd that shoots a 2" group is ok, a rifle, not so good. Also agree about the Dillon, bought one almost a year ago and don't think it loads all that better of a round but it sure loads it nicer and with less trouble, my Lee would junk about 2-4 a hundred and the Dillon 650 gets about 1-2 every 3-400 and loads twice as fast, easier too.