Rifled Slug Barrels, and cutting them down

gyvel · September 10, 2009, 04:37 PM

OK, guys, here's a real bomb of a topic.

A while back I called my ATF field agent with a hypothetical situation involving cutting a rifled slug barrel to 16" (minimum legal length for a "rifle").

After looking through the regs, his (verbal) reply was that it met all the criteria for a rifle, therefore legal.

Now, I would NEVER trust what any ATF agent tells you, and, if anyone out there wants to try this, I would get it IN WRITING before I attempted such a modification.

I would love to get your thoughts on this.

Remember, I said it was a HYPOTHETICAL situation.

hogdogs · September 10, 2009, 04:46 PM

Good topic to make a guy scratch a bald spot on my head...

I think the technicality that makes it a rifle may not supersede that a regular shot shell will chamber... but then again the Thunder 5 was legal ans the copy cat taurus judge is legal firing a .410 from a four in barrel... Get a hot rod lawyer and set us a precedent

Brent

oneounceload · September 10, 2009, 05:38 PM

Why bother? two inches aren't going to make that much difference to even bother risking a stint in the fed jail

Lee Lapin · September 10, 2009, 06:20 PM

I'd leave it in the realm of the hypothetical, myself. I know how much a decent criminal defense attorney bills per hour...

lpl

gyvel · September 11, 2009, 06:20 PM

Well said. First, if I WERE to do such a thing, I would definitely have WRITTEN clarification from ATF. Secondly, I agree that losing the extra 2" is of no great benefit, and that's why I specified it as a hypothetical situation. Thanks to all.

bigghoss · September 11, 2009, 09:04 PM

pics, or how do we know you even have a 8 gauge?

Bill DeShivs · September 11, 2009, 09:22 PM

My understanding is that the rifled shotguns are still ruled shotguns.
Rifles have to be under .50 cal to not be considered "destructive devices," so shotgun regulations (18" minimum) would prevail.

Regolith · September 11, 2009, 09:47 PM

I think Bill has it right. If it wouldn't count as a shotgun, it would count as a destructive device. Either way it's a good way to find out what the inside of a jail cell looks like.

apr1775 · September 15, 2009, 07:43 AM

Not a destructive device. It would only be so if it were over half inch bore and had no sporting purpose; many states allow twelve guage slug hunting. The main issue here is whether the bore is rifled. I'd agree with the agent that your gun is legally a rifle and not a shotgun. That being said, I'd get that opinion in writing and keep several copies. This would be a good chance to use a fed's ego to your advantage, "Mr ATF agent, can you send me your expert legal opinion in writing so if anyone who doesn't know the law as well as you do..... I modified the barrel under your agency's authority." Personally, I'd leave the barrel at 18in; I don't see 2in making enough difference to bother with and most slug ammo is made for a 20 some inch barrel anyway.

Not a legal opinion, just my personal thoughts, I'm not a lawyer.

Jon1911 · September 15, 2009, 07:50 AM

I like the idea. I think it's a similar concept to the Taurus Judge and other 45LC/410 handguns. However, the main difference I see is that the Shotgun is originally manufactured as a "shotgun" not a handgun or a rifle. I believe that is a major distinction as far as the ATF is concerned, but I'm no expert either.

I'd love to see someone prevail on that count. It's my estimation that one of two things would result if someone did prevail on the 16" rifled barrel issue.

1. It goes unnoticed by the anti-crowd, becomes a craze, and the price of mossberg 500 and Reminton 870 rifled barrels goes through the roof.

2. It is noticed, and Congress changes the law to close up the loophole.

oneounceload · September 15, 2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Rifles have to be under .50 cal to not be considered "destructive devices,"

Then how do the folks with 577, 600 Nitros, etc. deal with that? Or are they being considered sporting arms?

Willie Lowman · September 15, 2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

his (verbal) reply was that it met all the criteria for a rifle, therefore legal.

Now, I would NEVER trust what any ATF agent tells you, and, if anyone out there wants to try this, I would get it IN WRITING before I attempted such a modification.

Yep! Get it in writing or forget about it.

As for the .410 revolvers, it is under 50 caliber and all those guns have rifling. I suspect that those things are what made the ATF say "Ok" to the .410 pistol.

PetahW · September 15, 2009, 10:34 AM

I, for one, wouldn't want to have a rifled shotgun reclassified from being a "shotgun" to a "rifle".

An awful lot of hunters would get shafted when those "shotgun-only" states, that currently allow RS-barreled shotguns during their "shotgun only" deer seasons, would promptly ban their use as "too dangerous", the excuse currently given for not allowing any CF rifles.

.

Brian Pfleuger · September 15, 2009, 10:34 AM

That is certainly an interesting idea....

In NY state you would be in a real legal vapor world. NY law specifically says that a rifle uses metallic cartridges and a shotgun is defined as having a smooth barrel:

11. "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and
intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and
made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic
cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for
each single pull of the trigger.
12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade,
and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a
single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

So, technically, in NY the "thing" you started with is not a rifle OR a shotgun.... so the "thing" you end up with is a true mutant.

hardluk1 · September 15, 2009, 11:15 AM

peetzakilla Minimum length of a rifle is 26" over all with a 16" barrel
Minimum length of a shotgun is 26"overall and 18" barrel.
A taurus or any other short barrel shotgun or typical rifle cartrage gun is a factory product an built from the ground up as a pistol or you need a special license to own. Take a T/C pistol and you can convert to a rifle, all is good. Take a T/C rifle and convert to a pistol and don't get caught.

iiwas · September 15, 2009, 12:42 PM

I think the issue in those areas that dont allow CF rifles but do allow slugs is the overall range of the projectile. Normally slugs wont travel as far, and wont penetrate as much brush, etc. So i would have to agree, rifled slug barrels making a shotgun a "rifle" would, at least for N.E. WI huunters, be a bad thing.

gyvel · September 19, 2009, 11:46 PM

Quote:

pics, or how do we know you even have a 8 gauge?

Huh????????????

September 10, 2009, 04:37 PM	#1
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Rifled Slug Barrels, and cutting them down OK, guys, here's a real bomb of a topic. A while back I called my ATF field agent with a hypothetical situation involving cutting a rifled slug barrel to 16" (minimum legal length for a "rifle"). After looking through the regs, his (verbal) reply was that it met all the criteria for a rifle, therefore legal. Now, I would NEVER trust what any ATF agent tells you, and, if anyone out there wants to try this, I would get it IN WRITING before I attempted such a modification. I would love to get your thoughts on this. Remember, I said it was a HYPOTHETICAL situation.

September 10, 2009, 06:20 PM	#4
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	I'd leave it in the realm of the hypothetical, myself. I know how much a decent criminal defense attorney bills per hour... lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

September 11, 2009, 09:04 PM	#6
bigghoss Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2006 Location: Pueblo, Colorado Posts: 2,664	pics, or how do we know you even have a 8 gauge? __________________ I don't collect guns, I accumulate them.

September 11, 2009, 09:22 PM	#7
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,979	My understanding is that the rifled shotguns are still ruled shotguns. Rifles have to be under .50 cal to not be considered "destructive devices," so shotgun regulations (18" minimum) would prevail. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

September 15, 2009, 07:50 AM	#10
Jon1911 Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Posts: 70	I like the idea. I think it's a similar concept to the Taurus Judge and other 45LC/410 handguns. However, the main difference I see is that the Shotgun is originally manufactured as a "shotgun" not a handgun or a rifle. I believe that is a major distinction as far as the ATF is concerned, but I'm no expert either. I'd love to see someone prevail on that count. It's my estimation that one of two things would result if someone did prevail on the 16" rifled barrel issue. 1. It goes unnoticed by the anti-crowd, becomes a craze, and the price of mossberg 500 and Reminton 870 rifled barrels goes through the roof. 2. It is noticed, and Congress changes the law to close up the loophole. __________________ Μολὼν λάβε

September 10, 2009, 04:46 PM	#2
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Good topic to make a guy scratch a bald spot on my head... I think the technicality that makes it a rifle may not supersede that a regular shot shell will chamber... but then again the Thunder 5 was legal ans the copy cat taurus judge is legal firing a .410 from a four in barrel... Get a hot rod lawyer and set us a precedent Brent

September 10, 2009, 05:38 PM	#3
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Why bother? two inches aren't going to make that much difference to even bother risking a stint in the fed jail

September 11, 2009, 06:20 PM	#5
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Well said. First, if I WERE to do such a thing, I would definitely have WRITTEN clarification from ATF. Secondly, I agree that losing the extra 2" is of no great benefit, and that's why I specified it as a hypothetical situation. Thanks to all.

September 11, 2009, 09:47 PM	#8
Regolith Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2008 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 400	I think Bill has it right. If it wouldn't count as a shotgun, it would count as a destructive device. Either way it's a good way to find out what the inside of a jail cell looks like.

September 15, 2009, 07:43 AM	#9
apr1775 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 425	Not a destructive device. It would only be so if it were over half inch bore and had no sporting purpose; many states allow twelve guage slug hunting. The main issue here is whether the bore is rifled. I'd agree with the agent that your gun is legally a rifle and not a shotgun. That being said, I'd get that opinion in writing and keep several copies. This would be a good chance to use a fed's ego to your advantage, "Mr ATF agent, can you send me your expert legal opinion in writing so if anyone who doesn't know the law as well as you do..... I modified the barrel under your agency's authority." Personally, I'd leave the barrel at 18in; I don't see 2in making enough difference to bother with and most slug ammo is made for a 20 some inch barrel anyway. Not a legal opinion, just my personal thoughts, I'm not a lawyer.

September 15, 2009, 10:34 AM	#13
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	I, for one, wouldn't want to have a rifled shotgun reclassified from being a "shotgun" to a "rifle". An awful lot of hunters would get shafted when those "shotgun-only" states, that currently allow RS-barreled shotguns during their "shotgun only" deer seasons, would promptly ban their use as "too dangerous", the excuse currently given for not allowing any CF rifles. .

September 15, 2009, 10:34 AM	#14
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	That is certainly an interesting idea.... In NY state you would be in a real legal vapor world. NY law specifically says that a rifle uses metallic cartridges and a shotgun is defined as having a smooth barrel: 11. "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. 12. "Shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. So, technically, in NY the "thing" you started with is not a rifle OR a shotgun.... so the "thing" you end up with is a true mutant. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

September 15, 2009, 11:15 AM	#15
hardluk1 Junior member Join Date: March 27, 2009 Posts: 600	peetzakilla Minimum length of a rifle is 26" over all with a 16" barrel Minimum length of a shotgun is 26"overall and 18" barrel. A taurus or any other short barrel shotgun or typical rifle cartrage gun is a factory product an built from the ground up as a pistol or you need a special license to own. Take a T/C pistol and you can convert to a rifle, all is good. Take a T/C rifle and convert to a pistol and don't get caught. Last edited by hardluk1; September 15, 2009 at 03:03 PM.

September 15, 2009, 12:42 PM	#16
iiwas Member Join Date: August 15, 2005 Location: North-East Wisconsin Posts: 19	I think the issue in those areas that dont allow CF rifles but do allow slugs is the overall range of the projectile. Normally slugs wont travel as far, and wont penetrate as much brush, etc. So i would have to agree, rifled slug barrels making a shotgun a "rifle" would, at least for N.E. WI huunters, be a bad thing. __________________ Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. Mark Twain

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