In class today

[63Belair]

Hey guys,
I'm currently enrolled in a class 'Psychology and the Law', it's an interesting class where we investigate certain cases and all aspects of the legal system. Today we examined a case where a man, Mr. York was at home, heard 4 shots fired outside of his house. York then grabbed his shotgun (pistol grip 870 with a maglite taped on) and proceded down his driveway. When he got to the end of his driveway he switched on the flashlight, and then saw a man running with an SKS. According to the tape we saw in class the man with the SKS turned toward him, so York fired 2 shots, killing the man. After this, York saw another man in an SUV (both men he saw were asian, just bringing this up because some people in the class thought race might have had something to do with York's actions). York ordered the man out of the car, which the man did do, and as he was getting out York fired a shot at him, because he 'felt he had a gun' The shot missed, but a pellet bounced off the windshield and wounded the man in the neck.

When the police arrived York told them, regarding the 2nd man, that he did not see a gun but felt the man had one. York lived in a rough neighborhood, as was established by several witnesses in the case.

The DA did not charge York with murder for the man with the SKS because they felt would not get a conviction. They did, however, charge him with aggravated assault on the second man.

I was just wondering what all of you would have done if you were in Mr York's situation, and or how you would have found Mr. York if you were on the jury.


I'll post what the result of the trial was later (although I'm sure at least a few of you are probablly familiar with the case)

[M1911]

He heard 4 shots outside his house and he then went outside?

I'd gather the missus downstairs, open up the gun safe, issue the Mrs her AR15 and a magazine, grab my AR15 and a mag for me, and then call the cops.

Go outside, at night, into an unknown situation?

No thank you. No way, no how.

Intervening in a third party situation is fraught with physical and legal danger, as this incident so clearly shows.

[mete]

Your home is a good defensible position .Leaving it it STUPID .I remember a case in PA where a man left his home and the BGs blew him away !!.He should have grabbed his gun and called police.In addition he had no idea what the 4 shots were about . Was the SKS man a GG or BG ?? "felt he had a gun" ? That's as lame an excuse as hunters who shoot at movement or sound because they "thought " it was a deer.

[63Belair]

I hope my original post didn't come off biased, I was just trying to present the case in the same manner that it was in the documentary. I said he should have grabbed his phone, called the police, then gone for his gun and found a safe position in his house to defend (he lived alone).

And technically speaking the guy with the SKS was a BG, although that is up for debate. According to the surving member, the two of them were intoxicated when the one who wound up dead asked his friend if he could fire the gun, his friend first objected, but then consented.

The trial went through 2 mistrials untill finally during the third trial and after 2.5 hours of dileberation the jury found Mr. York to be not guilty. (remember not guilty does not equal innocent)

Thoughts?

[Northern Sod Breaker]

Why do all of these stories always begin with "He heard a noise and went to investigate." Sounds like a tornado outside maybe I should go check it out. Isn't there an unwritten rule somewhere about letting your enemy come to you and therefore fighting on your terms rather then vise versa?

[Blackwater OPS]

If I hear shots I'll stay put. No need to be Mr. Hero, somebody somewhere is currently getting some of my tax dollars to play that role. If I hear a woman(or even a man I suppose) screaming for help, well that's a judgement call, but otherwise I know I can best defend me and mine from the indoors.

If you do go out, you have to shoot if there is a threat, if you plan on living anyway. But thats why you don't go out, the threat could just be another wanna be hero checking out the situation, and now you killed him.

[CobrayCommando]

You generally want to be on the tactical defensive. This is assuming the BGs don't have grenades, which is a risky assumption in LA

[Samurai]

You're asking if I would have shot the second guy? Yes, probably. I would have been rather on-edge at the time, fight and/or flight, and all, and I wouldn't have been thinking clearly. I probably would have made the mistake of shooting him. And, I would have been arrested for aggravated assault AND attempted murder! BECAUSE, shooting an unarmed man who poses no reasonable threat to you is both aggravated assault AND attempted murder!

The guy should get convicted, because unfortunately, he is guilty of both crimes. And, as was pointed out above, this is TYPICAL Rambo-He-Man behavior indicative of an irresponsible gun owner. He shouldn't have left his house. Besides the fact that his home was a more "defensible" position, the fact that he went out of his house means that he went LOOKING for trouble. He obviously found it.

Let us know what the jury convicts him of. But, unless the legal system fails (or there were facts not disclosed to the public), he should be convicted of something.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Could we get a more specific reference to the case and documentary please? It might be of interest to see it.

Thanks.

I think the guy was an idiot and lucky not to be in jail. The trials must have cost him financially and emotionally so he didn't get off unscathed though.

[Benzene]

I'd agree that "the guy was an idiot" and not merely "an irresponsible gun owner". What was he trying to do by going "down his driveway" with his "pistol grip 870 with a maglite taped on"? To verify that he indeed "heard 4 shots fired outside"? This is the kind of character that does harm to the pro-2nd position. And was it just a coincidence that this particular case of stupidity was taken up for discussion "in a class 'Psychology and the Law'"?

As to "somebody somewhere is currently getting some of my tax dollars to play that role," I wouldn't bet too heavily on the "to play that role" part. Realtor in NYC had a guy, probably on drugs, breaking down a door; realtor called police 3 times, and "New York's finest" is yet to show up. This is all the more reason to stay out of trouble, especially when armed.

[Blackwater OPS]

Of course, I meant play that role outside on public property, someone kicking down my own door is a situation I'm happy to handle all on my own.

[GeorgeF]

If I heard shots, I would definitely not go outside. My duty is to keep my family safe and secure and me laying in a pool of blood on my front steps doesnt achieve that.

That being said, it certainly is hard to be jaded all the time. I remember vividly hearing an altercation across the street back in 1994 when I lived in NorthEast Philadelphia. I was 22 at the time and living with my parents. I can even remember what I was watching - 'Picket Fences.'

Noises kept up outside and so finally after about 10 minutes I looked outside and saw some teens on the steps of my church across the street - St Cecilia's. I walked outside to look and saw a girl cradling a boy's head in her lap. Turns out a group of boys had chased one Eddie Polec and beat him into unconciousness on the steps of my church. He later died at the hospital.

Now would these kids had kept up their assault had someone shown an interest in their activities? Might they have scattered like cockroaches and left the boy alive? We'll never know, but it stays with me to this day.

[nkielborn]

the guy was defintely wrong for shooting at the second person. the reason being that he had complied to yorks instruction first off he got out of the car when ordered. and leaving your home after gunshots was quite stupid, and goes to the argument of looking for a fight so he was wrong did he prolly do a favor and kill the first guy yes but it was still wrong. my 2 cents

[RevolverLover]

Go outside, at night, into an unknown situation?

No thank you. No way, no how.

I'm with him. Why would you want to go into a unknown situation when you hear gunshots?

[Dwight55]

I have to admit, . . . I've done the same thing, . . . set down my Pepsi, grabbed my .45 and headed out into the dark to determine what the shots were all about.

But, . . . I was in VietNam, . . . had a bunch of guys with me, . . . all armed of course, . . . and it turned out to just be a bunch of locals, . . . shooting their .30 cal machine gun up into the air, . . . to see if the tracers still worked.

I haven't done it since, . . . as long as there are deputies on the way, . . . and ammo in the house for my guns, . . . ain't gonna happen again.

May God bless,
Dwight

[45RackerTracker]

"I said he should have grabbed his phone, called the police, then gone for his gun and found a safe position in his house to defend (he lived alone)."

The only thing I would have done different is the order of execution, get my wife, grab my guns and extra ammo, get the phone, go to the safest part of the house, lock myself in, call the police, tell them what happened and where we are in the house. Then lie in wait for whatever is next, preferably a police response.

[chrisandclauida2]

your not a cop you stay in side where its secured unless you hear screams for life etc. even then when you respond you only have a tiny fraction of the story. what if the guy with the sks is a good guy protecting his family. your introducing another person and weapon into an already unknown situation.

we have all investigated stuff out side. it is a stupid move any day of the week.

i have told this story as a learning tool . so laugh if you want but learn from it.

i just got home one night and heard a **** load of shots. i swore they were right out side my door. so being the idiot 19 year old i was i grabbed my 45 and ran out side. i had just taken my uniform off so i had no way to be identified. anyways as soon as i got into the drive way a police cruiser pulled in. here i am with a huge model 645 in stainless in my had and a cop who is responding lights siren to the call of shots fired.

what do you think happened. i almost got killed and it would have been my fault. i even argued with the officer about throwing my beautiful shiny stainless smith into a muddy asphalt drive way. i dont know why the officer didn't shoot me. worse for the officer and i it was a small officer who was half my size and she had no back up so she was further on edge. i complied by setting it on a trash can she cuffed me after i laid in the muddy asphalt drive way and it took 90 min to prove i wasnt shooting up the city.

learn from my mistake.

and for those who will chime in proving their ignorance of gun laws you can own a hand gun under 21. you can buy a hand gun under 21 you just cant buy one from a licensed dealer. i always get several who think they know something about this so now its a mute point

[CDH]

anyways as soon as i got into the drive way a police cruiser pulled in. here i am with a huge model 645 in stainless in my had and a cop who is responding lights siren to the call of shots fired.

That's one of my biggest recurring fears, that is, being mistaken as the bad guy in a situation like that, or any situation where I feel I just "have" to be there with a weapon drawn and LE pulls up.
I think this is a good example why CCW carriers need to stay defensive only and not become self appointed law enforcers.

Carter

[revjen45]

If I hear shot outside I am securing the doors, arming my wife (I am always armed at home) and shutting off the lights. I live in an urban neighborhood about 3 blocks from Polizei Overgruppenamt so I'm sure several of the neighbors would call the cops for me, and I don't get involved.

[pdkflyguy]

The guy was especially lucky that he wasn't charged with anything more than aggravated assault.

When I lived in Atlanta, I was in a pretty rough neighborhood, so I was always hearing gunshots. Sometimes, it was the cops shooting back, and another armed citizen running towards them with his gun out is only looking to get some friendly fire.

I would never go outside, not in a million years. Every time I heard gunshots, I gathered my family in the den (right next to the crawl-space entrance, and 80% underground), and made sure they were safe first. My gun was always on me, so then I'd give my wife her gun, and we'd wait until we heard sirens responding. Having a family plan for things like that is always important, as is having a rally point for everyone to meet at.

[weknowhowtolive]

Huh...I'm just wondering how he missed with a shotgun from that distance.

[Big Calhoun]

My personal course of action would be to get my wife into the back room and arm myself. Grab the cordless and a cell and verify the doors are locked. Stay away from windows and call 911 to report gun shots heard. I would not have even thought to invite what happened to that gentleman.

[tony pasley]

Shots fire outside; 1st turn on outside lights , 2nd check view from outside cameras, 3rd turn off inside lights, 4th call S.D., 5th hope they go different direction, 6th if they don't go different direction defend home.