Are you really a good shot? - Page 2

DT Guy · October 20, 2005, 06:56 PM

AFA what's 'good enough' for self-defense, here's an alternative view on distances and target sizes:

http://www.thegunzone.com/well-enough.html

Just some food for thought.

Larry

stephen426 · October 20, 2005, 07:04 PM

When I got my first gun, I made a promise to myself to not carry it unless I practiced at least once every 2 months. I know having a gun can save my life, but a stray shot can also take another person's life. 6 times a year isn't all that much to reduce the chance of hitting bystanders an the resulting civil lawsuits.

I travel a lot for work and unfortunately I have not been able to keep up the 2 month requirement. I do go at least 4 times a year but I still do pretty well. I get nice tight groupings at combat distance (3 inch groups with a Glock 26 at 7 yards) and respectable groups at 15 yards (all in the black on an NRA 25 yd. pistol target).

My question is should we set a minimum level of performance or minimum number of rounds fired for ourselves before we carry in public? This goes double for crowded places. I bet there are people who carry on a regular basis who haven't practiced in ages. They might not be on this site but I think my father-in-law falls into that catagory. Is it fair to say I prefer to be able to defend myself with my gun even though I may kill bystanders?

blackmind · October 20, 2005, 07:26 PM

No, it's not "fair" to set minimum accuracy standards.

Not everyone will be having to defend themselves in the same circumstances. Not everyone will have to draw and fire in a crowd, or even anywhere there may be bystanders shot.

What if some guy rides a bicycle on the side of the road 7 miles to work in a rural area. There are yahoos in a pickup who have been harassing and beating up/robbing out in the middle of nowhere. This guy should have to be able to put 3 inch groups on paper at 7 yards? Who's he endangering by using a gun to defend himself out on a rural road when three guys leap out of a pickup to roll him?

Plus, let's not forget that in the majority of cases, the gun doesn't have to be fired.

PLUS, let's remember that even though you can put 3 inch groups on paper in the safety of a range, you are unlikely to get accuracy anywhere near that if you are firing in self defense against some trio of yokels who are out to stomp you. What's the difference at that point whether you had good range accuracy if you're going to be no better than this guy once TSHTF?

As I understand it, EVERYBODY'S accurace goes to crap in the dire circumstances of SD -- to some degree or other.

-blackmind

blackmind · October 20, 2005, 07:28 PM

Plus, give some credit to people for being able to decide a shoot/no-shoot scenario. Obviously, even if I can't overlap shots on paper I am not going to start firing blindly in the middle of a mall parking lot just 'cause I can.

Put a little faith in people's judgment.

-blackmind

imur_huckle_berry · October 20, 2005, 08:20 PM

hear hear

+1 blackmind

stephen426 · October 20, 2005, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen426

should we set a minimum level of performance or minimum number of rounds fired for ourselves

Maybe I just take the burden of responsible gun ownership more seriously than others. I live in Miami and there aren't too many rural places around here. Please note that I did say the restrictions would be self imposed. I am in no way dictating what you should do or not do, but rather encouraging everyone to maintain a level of proficiency to reduce the chances for "incidental damage" should the need to defend one's self arise.

clt46910 · October 20, 2005, 09:08 PM

If you practice on the range and you can make those one, two, or three inch groups then when TSHTF you will have the TRAINING to use your gun and make the shot. When the mind goes into panic mode it will rely on the training it has received. If your training is shooting small groups, your mind and muslces are already taught to do that. If you train your mind and muscles to only hit the target then most likely you will be spraying lead all over the place.

I believe if you are going to carry you have a responibility to be able to use your gun in a way not to endanger other people. That includes being trained enough to be reasonably able to hit what you are shooting at. That also includes actually shooting your gun on a regular basis. How you train and how often you shoot would be a personal option, but I don't think a couple times a year is enough. I personally believe that one should shoot their carry gun at least twice a month. I use to empty my gun everyday when I came home, but I had a range in my back yard and could. I know most can not do this. But a short stop at the range for 45 minutes or an hour every other week is not, in my opition, asking to much for the safety of others and your own confidence in your abilities. Don't have to be weekends, maybe after or before work, maybe lunch. Whatever works for you.

I believe it is "fair" to expect a certain amount of responibility, confidence, and ability from someone that carries a gun just as I do with anyone that has a drivers licence. Yes...I know about some of the drivers out there. I would hope, us on this forum, are a little more responsible then that.

9mm1033 · October 21, 2005, 07:58 AM

FWIW: After all LE shootings are critiqued, the involved officer has ALWAYS said, an actual shooting situation doesn't compare to firing at a paper target, no matter what the distance. If memory serves me, most police defensive shootings are within the 10 foot (+ or -) range. Up close and very personal. My max practice range with a handgun is 25 feet. Normally much closer.

625 · October 21, 2005, 08:34 AM

I consider myself good, not great with a handgun. I shoot my handguns a lot more than my rifles and my shotgun these days. But hey, that's what training and practice is all about for most of us. It's fun, and we strive to get better. No need to ruin your day by being angry with yourself that you didn't shoot as well as you wanted. Have fun, be safe, and remind yourself that you will get better.

us.armysniper · October 21, 2005, 12:02 PM

i consider myself to be a poor shot with a handgun but just like with anything else practice practice practice, so that is what I do. I have come a long way since I first started and have shot pretty desent groups, one of which I posted not to long ago that i was quite proud of. When at the range I shoot 75 percent of the time at 3 to 15yds and 25 percent of the time I shoot at 25 yds much farther than that i think is streaching the means of a handgun, In my personal opinion a pistol is means to a rifle, i will use the side arm until I can make it to the trunk or the closet depending where i am at! If i have to shoot someone at past 25yds, than they aren't possing much of a threat to me, well in a self defense type scenario.

Musketeer · October 21, 2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

If someone shoots a handgun at someone from 15 yards or more, that person likely is going to prison.

That really depends on the situation. Granted the primary goal as a civilian is to usually get to safety but there are always cases where the lives of others are at stake or running further, into the open, could be worse.

The late Mark Wilson in Texas engaged a bad guy in Tyler Texas armed with a rifle. I know it wasn't at the normally close ranges self defense shootings occur at though. Mr. Wilson put lead on target but failed to drop the BG due to body armor. At this point the ability to put lead on a head sized target may have saved his life. Perhaps he tried, perhaps he didn't. We do know he exchanged shots with the rifleman before being injured and eventually executed.

Tyler Texas had to be a worst case scenario for every CCW holder. A deranged BG with a semi auto rifle, also wearing a vest (not known until too late).

75% of my practice takes place at 10 yards or less. At those ranges, especially the closer ones, I focus on rapid pairs to the torso followed by a shot to the head. I will also practice a single aimed shot to the right between the eyebrows for the true nightmare scenario of a family member being held at gun or knife point. Beyond the close range though I will practice at 15 - 25 yards with individual aimed shots, both supported and unsupported, as there is always a chance of the worst case scenario happenning. Beyond the close range flash sight picture that is likely in 90% of self defense shootings I want to know I can hit a head at 25 yards incase I am ever thrown into Mr. Wilson's predicament.

For those who do not know Mr. Wilson saved the lives of several others by distracting the gunman and exchanging fire with him. Look up Tyler Texas and Mark Wilson in google for the story.

us.armysniper · October 21, 2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

I focus on rapid pairs to the torso

Quote:

Beyond the close range though I will practice at 15 - 25 yards with individual aimed shots, both supported and unsupported,

that is pretty much my drill at the range as well, controled pairs at close range. i really enjoy reflex type firing and where my weaon is at the ready but the low ready, pull up shot down pull up shot etc. I allow my self a little more time for the farther out targets, like was said above taking more aimmed rather that quick shots.

**JohnKSa** · October 23, 2005, 04:03 PM

A big part of training is helping you to learn your limitations.

You may not be able to match the talents of a Delta Force Operator, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't carry. It means you shouldn't attempt head shots while under extreme stress. It means you shouldn't try to do hostage rescue at 50 yards with a .25Auto.

Know your limitations and don't operate outside them.

USP45usp · October 24, 2005, 05:40 PM

Nope. Average if that.

Wayne

RandyDTC · October 25, 2005, 01:22 AM

3 rounds, < 1.5 seconds, < .25 group, > 15 feet? From the holster? I do not think I can do that.

How about 10 rounds, < 1.7 seconds, just over 1.25" group, at 15 feet? That I CAN do.

Which would be more applicable to a defensive situation?

Randy

Powderman · October 25, 2005, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Which would be more applicable to a defensive situation?]

Somehow, if you dropped that many rounds within 2 inches, center mass, I really don't think that the BG would stop, reflect briefly, then say "Indeed. You have not kept all of your rounds within one inch. Therefore, I refuse to be affected, and thus, will not die. Fie on thee!"

TrumpetShooter · October 18, 2006, 11:00 AM

I'm so glad I found this post. Even thought my accuracy is slowly improving, I questioned my shooting ability and the accuracy potential of my guns until I re-read these posts and fired one of those really slick target guns.

Below is my average 10-yard accuracy right now, after two and a half years of shooting, with almost 100% factory-stock equipment. The only modification I've made is a lighter main spring on my snubnose .38, and a "poor man's trigger job" on my Ruger Single-Six.

I. Taurus Model 65, .357 Mag., 4" barrel, shooting a mix of hand-loaded .38 special and mild .357 Mag. ammo

A. Two-hand hold, shooting single-action: 2.5" groups at 10 yards, no fliers

B. Two-hand hold, shooting double-action: 4" groups at 10 yards, occasional fliers not more than 5" off center.

C. One-handed hold, shooting double-action: 6" groups at 10 yards, with an occasional flier off the paper.

II. Rossi Model 351, .38 Spl., 2" barrel, shooting handloaded .38 special ammo.

A. Two-hand hold, shooting double-action: 5" groups at 10 yards, occasional fliers still on the paper.

B. One-handed hold, shooting double-action: 7" groups at 10 yards, occasional fliers mostly still on the paper

III. Smith and Wesson Sigma 9VE, DAO 9MM, 4" barrel, shooting 115 grain Winchester USA FMJ ammo

A. Two-hand hold: 4" groups at 10 yards, very few fliers still on the paper.

B. One-handed hold: 8" groups at 10 yard, occasional flier in the dirt.

IV. Ruger Single-Six 22lr, 6.5" barrel, shooting 40-grain lrn Federal Champion ammo

A. One-handed hold: 2" groups at 10 yards
B. Two-hand hold: 3" groups at 10 yards
C. Two hand hold: 6" groups at 25 yards

V. Raven .25 ACP, 2" barrel

One-handed hold: Almost every shot on an 8.5" X 11" sheet of paper.

Now, here's the kicker. My best group ever was a sub-2" group at 10 yards with a borrowed .45ACP. I had never fired the gun before, and I didn't get any warm-up shots. It was a 10-shot group, and I was amazed at how slick the trigger was, and at how each bullet went right where I aimed it (after a few minutes of coaching before I took my first shot.) I don't remember the make of gun it was, but it was one of those foreign-sounding names.

I would enjoy that kind of accuracy all the time, but I would never carry a gun with a trigger that light. Maybe I'm not doing that bad after all.

Abby · October 18, 2006, 11:17 AM

I'm with clt46910 on this one as to the value of practicing for precision. Chances are, if it ever comes to down to defending ourselves in a CCW situation, we'll be lucky to have enough time for the following thought process:

"Oh ***!"
[draw]
"Oh ****!"
[BANG!]

That's why we practice the little stuff. Sure, a nice pretty little shot group might SEEM excessively picky, but it means that a shooter is doing the right things in the right way on the range. THAT dramatically increases the chances of doing the right things in the right way in real life.

And I wouldn't say it's a requirement - it's not my place to tell someone what level of proficiency they need to attain before they can defend themselves. For those just starting out, getting all the holes in the "5 zone" at 7 yards can be enough of a challenge. But once you're at that point, there's nothing wrong with moving the target back and working on fine control.

But we also have to remember - the holes in the paper at the range are only one part of the equation. I, for one, am pretty good at that. However, I'm pretty deficient in my drawing and presentation. That's where a lot of my focus goes now.

TrumpetShooter · October 18, 2006, 12:05 PM

Good point. To tell the truth, I don't feel all that gratified by shooting a decent group. I just want to shoot one better next time, and shooting for groups doesn't make me feel any more secure on the street.

I was robbed at gunpoint in April of 2004, and the robber shot at me. He missed my head by a few inches at about 30 feet. By this time I could undoubtedly outshoot that crook at the range. They don't give jailbirds range time (yet), and the good Lord knows the idiot didn't practice when he was a free man. But the range -- that's not where it counts, is it?

I need to get serious about drawing and presenting. I've done a little work in that area, but not consistently. Just last month I started practicing my draws. (I didn't count my "draw and fire" groups in the averages in my previous post.:barf: ) They hit the paper most of the time, but my speed is nothing to brag about. I'm also practicing left-handed a little.

One of the guys at the range taught me a drill that I've started to do when I'm alone at the range, which happens about once every couple of weeks. I stand with my back to the target, turn, draw, and fire. I repeat the drill with each gun in both two-hand and one-hand stances. It would be a whole lot better if I had someone to call "Go" or blow a whistle. I'm unable to "surprise" myself,

if you know what I mean. At our range we're not allowed to draw and fire if anyone else is present on the firing line.

Do you know of some good defense drills for handgunners?

Samurai · October 18, 2006, 12:34 PM

I can draw and empty a magazine into a dinner-plate-sized area on a silouette at 15 yards (in about 4 seconds). If I take my time, I can reduce that to a tea-cup-sized area (about 30 seconds).

I consider myself a rank-amateur.

Dave R · October 18, 2006, 12:36 PM

My BIL is in the FBI, and he totally changed my mind about my training goals.

First time he and I shot together, I consistently made smaller groups than he did, at slow-fire rested and offhand. That's generally how I shoot. I want to improve consistency and group size. I even made smaller groups than he did with HIS service pistol. I was feeling pretty good about myself. I asked him how he trained.

He told me that he was taught, and he firmly believes, that the ability to draw from concealment and get the first few rounds on the target FAST is what will save your life. Shooting small groups at a distance is a valuable skill, but not the skill that is likeliest to save your life.

Then he demonstrated, drawing from concealment and putting 4 rounds in a palm-sized group at 10 yards, so fast that I could not believe it. He said getting the first round on target fast was key, and putting multiple rounds on target fast was also important, becasue one hit was not likely to stop a threat.

I tried it, and although I was nowhere near as fast as he was, I was also nowhere near as good as he was at putting the first round on the target fast.

So I changed the way I train.

I can't do fast draws from concealment at my range, so I have to practice that in the garage, with Speer's plastic training bullets. My draw time and accuracy of first shot have improved significantly.

At the range, I still do some slow fire at long distance, for small groups, because I enjoy that skill. But I also do some rapid-fire drills, trying to keep several rounds in a reasonable group, as fast as I can. Its a muscle-memory thing, getting the sights out of recoil and back on the target consistently.

I should probably get involved in IDPA or IPSC, too.

threefivesevenmag · October 18, 2006, 12:39 PM

After I started doing pistol matches, you really learn what your skill level is at in terms of drawing, shooting different angles, hands, positions, etc...etc...

I go to the range twice a month and do a match once or twice a month. Since I've been doing it a bit over a year now, my "skills" are much better.

I will say, punching paper is quite boring now...I mean really boring...as standing there and taking aim it's easy to get 1-3 inch groups.

I'd suggest getting into some pistol matches and see how well you do. It's very humbling and you learn a lot! You might think you have skills...but you learn quickly from mistakes and inabilities you hadn't even considered.

You learn how you react if a gun jams...you learn to get your gun into battery quickly while focusing on the target...tactical reloads, getting a gun from an odd position (ala picking up a stranger's gun from a distance and taking cover...loading it and operating it from that point)...I mean some scenarios are really interesting and make you think a lot more about what you need to really take action if you had to. Plus, it's a lot of fun with a group of like-minded individuals.

I know it's no substitution for simmunitions training, etc...but it's as good as I can get right now and I feel a lot more confident in carrying and skill set since doing matches.

King_chin0 · October 18, 2006, 01:01 PM

I'm sure someone already said this, and there are many who disagrees with me, I think everyone should practice all drills, target, self-defense and all. Be an all around shooter, not just to master one, I mean it is good to master a shooting style, and I hope people would strive to master any shooting style, hip shooting, benchrest, etc. But you never know what is going to happen, and can never predict anything, so being a good shot with any style is a very good idea. So get going and practice!!!!

I'm on my way to the range

stephen426 · October 18, 2006, 04:57 PM

I fully agree that tight groups are secondary to getting shots on your target quickly. That is why IPSC stresses speed while providing some latitude on accuracy. The alpha hit zone is approximately 11" x 6" for COM and 4" x 2" for head shots. Bravo shots are head shots outside the 4" x 2" alpha zone and is 6" x 6". Charlie shots are torso shots outside of the alpha zone and measure roughly 12" x 18". Delta shots are torso shots outside the charlie zone and measures about 18" x 24". All of this can be found here... page 49.

http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf

So what is the whole point of all those measurements? Basically, alpha hits are considered critical hits since they are located where the medulla oblongata lies for the head shots and a serious chest wound where close to where the heart, lungs, and spine lie for the COM shot. It does not matter if the shots are right on top of each other or on opposite ends of the alpha zone. As long as your shots are in the zone, they count. As Dave said, his brother in law in the FBI trains to get his shots on target quickly rather than going for pretty groupings. This could be what saves your life, especially if the bad guy has a gun pointed at you or is already shooting at you.

One type of practice I highly recommend that is similar to what TrumpetShooter said is having the gun at low ready and firing at specific parts of the target as quickly as possible. There are targets that have 5 individual targets on them which can be numbered with a marker. Have a friend call out the number and try to hit the corresponding target as quickly as possible. With practice, this greatly improves your target acquisition time and improves your point shooting ability as well.

Try to get used to how your pistol points and shoot without looking "though" your sights. For close distances, you should be able to hit your target very easily. I practice with an airsoft gun at home and have gotten to the point where I can hit my 6" x 6" sticky target from across the room (about 15 feet) while moving laterally. I look over the top of the gun to align the sights rather than looking through the sights. I also use my arm and body to align myself to the target. I know airsoft is not a substitute for life fire, but you can practice much more often and the practice still translates into muscle memory if your airsoft gun is very similar to your carry gun.

rem33 · October 18, 2006, 07:18 PM

I hope to never even point at another person so I don't shoot at targets that look like a human. Guys I see at the range that do I tend to shake my head and look away I don't even wanna talk to them. Gives me the thought" hmm wonder if they hope to shoot someone". Thats my feeling on that but I live in a very small rural town, with a very low crime rate.
We usta shoot plastic one liter bottles at 100 yards with our single six's the game was who could hit it first free hand, or stand up shot gun shells at 50 feet or so. I have a Ruger SP101 two inch in a 357 and on occasion it is with me but I hope to never use it and if that situation comes up I will depend on all the hours I have spent with a pistol in my hand to protect me.
Unless your a cop or in the service I see no need to be practicing shooting people. Just learn to be a good shot and very familiar with your gun.

October 20, 2005, 06:56 PM	#26
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 959	AFA what's 'good enough' for self-defense, here's an alternative view on distances and target sizes: http://www.thegunzone.com/well-enough.html Just some food for thought. Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

October 20, 2005, 07:04 PM	#27
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	When I got my first gun, I made a promise to myself to not carry it unless I practiced at least once every 2 months. I know having a gun can save my life, but a stray shot can also take another person's life. 6 times a year isn't all that much to reduce the chance of hitting bystanders an the resulting civil lawsuits. I travel a lot for work and unfortunately I have not been able to keep up the 2 month requirement. I do go at least 4 times a year but I still do pretty well. I get nice tight groupings at combat distance (3 inch groups with a Glock 26 at 7 yards) and respectable groups at 15 yards (all in the black on an NRA 25 yd. pistol target). My question is should we set a minimum level of performance or minimum number of rounds fired for ourselves before we carry in public? This goes double for crowded places. I bet there are people who carry on a regular basis who haven't practiced in ages. They might not be on this site but I think my father-in-law falls into that catagory. Is it fair to say I prefer to be able to defend myself with my gun even though I may kill bystanders? __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

October 20, 2005, 08:20 PM	#30
imur_huckle_berry Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 102	hear hear +1 blackmind __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ It's funny until someone loses an eye...........then it's hilarious! Huck

October 20, 2005, 09:08 PM	#32
clt46910 Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 149	If you practice on the range and you can make those one, two, or three inch groups then when TSHTF you will have the TRAINING to use your gun and make the shot. When the mind goes into panic mode it will rely on the training it has received. If your training is shooting small groups, your mind and muslces are already taught to do that. If you train your mind and muscles to only hit the target then most likely you will be spraying lead all over the place. I believe if you are going to carry you have a responibility to be able to use your gun in a way not to endanger other people. That includes being trained enough to be reasonably able to hit what you are shooting at. That also includes actually shooting your gun on a regular basis. How you train and how often you shoot would be a personal option, but I don't think a couple times a year is enough. I personally believe that one should shoot their carry gun at least twice a month. I use to empty my gun everyday when I came home, but I had a range in my back yard and could. I know most can not do this. But a short stop at the range for 45 minutes or an hour every other week is not, in my opition, asking to much for the safety of others and your own confidence in your abilities. Don't have to be weekends, maybe after or before work, maybe lunch. Whatever works for you. I believe it is "fair" to expect a certain amount of responibility, confidence, and ability from someone that carries a gun just as I do with anyone that has a drivers licence. Yes...I know about some of the drivers out there. I would hope, us on this forum, are a little more responsible then that. __________________ Chuck in Indiana

October 21, 2005, 07:58 AM	#33
9mm1033 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2005 Location: A big city with far too many cars and people. Posts: 932	FWIW: After all LE shootings are critiqued, the involved officer has ALWAYS said, an actual shooting situation doesn't compare to firing at a paper target, no matter what the distance. If memory serves me, most police defensive shootings are within the 10 foot (+ or -) range. Up close and very personal. My max practice range with a handgun is 25 feet. Normally much closer. __________________ No one reads or cares what is written in ones signature box. So I'm not writing anything worth reading or remembering.

October 20, 2005, 07:26 PM	#28
blackmind Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	No, it's not "fair" to set minimum accuracy standards. Not everyone will be having to defend themselves in the same circumstances. Not everyone will have to draw and fire in a crowd, or even anywhere there may be bystanders shot. What if some guy rides a bicycle on the side of the road 7 miles to work in a rural area. There are yahoos in a pickup who have been harassing and beating up/robbing out in the middle of nowhere. This guy should have to be able to put 3 inch groups on paper at 7 yards? Who's he endangering by using a gun to defend himself out on a rural road when three guys leap out of a pickup to roll him? Plus, let's not forget that in the majority of cases, the gun doesn't have to be fired. PLUS, let's remember that even though you can put 3 inch groups on paper in the safety of a range, you are unlikely to get accuracy anywhere near that if you are firing in self defense against some trio of yokels who are out to stomp you. What's the difference at that point whether you had good range accuracy if you're going to be no better than this guy once TSHTF? As I understand it, EVERYBODY'S accurace goes to crap in the dire circumstances of SD -- to some degree or other. -blackmind

October 20, 2005, 07:28 PM	#29
blackmind Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	Plus, give some credit to people for being able to decide a shoot/no-shoot scenario. Obviously, even if I can't overlap shots on paper I am not going to start firing blindly in the middle of a mall parking lot just 'cause I can. Put a little faith in people's judgment. -blackmind

October 21, 2005, 08:34 AM	#34
625 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2005 Location: PA Posts: 858	I consider myself good, not great with a handgun. I shoot my handguns a lot more than my rifles and my shotgun these days. But hey, that's what training and practice is all about for most of us. It's fun, and we strive to get better. No need to ruin your day by being angry with yourself that you didn't shoot as well as you wanted. Have fun, be safe, and remind yourself that you will get better. __________________ I don't believe in a government that protects us from ourselves. Ronald Reagan

October 21, 2005, 12:02 PM	#35
us.armysniper Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Out of the U.s more than In it! Posts: 248	i consider myself to be a poor shot with a handgun but just like with anything else practice practice practice, so that is what I do. I have come a long way since I first started and have shot pretty desent groups, one of which I posted not to long ago that i was quite proud of. When at the range I shoot 75 percent of the time at 3 to 15yds and 25 percent of the time I shoot at 25 yds much farther than that i think is streaching the means of a handgun, In my personal opinion a pistol is means to a rifle, i will use the side arm until I can make it to the trunk or the closet depending where i am at! If i have to shoot someone at past 25yds, than they aren't possing much of a threat to me, well in a self defense type scenario. __________________ Sic Vis Pacem, Para Bellum I will Never Forget 16 Aug 2004, Sadr city Iraq

October 23, 2005, 04:03 PM	#38
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	A big part of training is helping you to learn your limitations. You may not be able to match the talents of a Delta Force Operator, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't carry. It means you shouldn't attempt head shots while under extreme stress. It means you shouldn't try to do hostage rescue at 50 yards with a .25Auto. Know your limitations and don't operate outside them. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

October 24, 2005, 05:40 PM	#39
USP45usp Junior member Join Date: May 17, 2000 Location: Eugene, OR Posts: 3,427	Nope. Average if that. Wayne

October 25, 2005, 01:22 AM	#40
RandyDTC Member Join Date: May 23, 2005 Location: Staunton, Virginia Posts: 57	3 rounds, < 1.5 seconds, < .25 group, > 15 feet? From the holster? I do not think I can do that. How about 10 rounds, < 1.7 seconds, just over 1.25" group, at 15 feet? That I CAN do. Which would be more applicable to a defensive situation? Randy

October 18, 2006, 11:00 AM	#42
TrumpetShooter Member Join Date: December 1, 2004 Posts: 42	I'm so glad I found this post. Even thought my accuracy is slowly improving, I questioned my shooting ability and the accuracy potential of my guns until I re-read these posts and fired one of those really slick target guns. Below is my average 10-yard accuracy right now, after two and a half years of shooting, with almost 100% factory-stock equipment. The only modification I've made is a lighter main spring on my snubnose .38, and a "poor man's trigger job" on my Ruger Single-Six. I. Taurus Model 65, .357 Mag., 4" barrel, shooting a mix of hand-loaded .38 special and mild .357 Mag. ammo A. Two-hand hold, shooting single-action: 2.5" groups at 10 yards, no fliers B. Two-hand hold, shooting double-action: 4" groups at 10 yards, occasional fliers not more than 5" off center. C. One-handed hold, shooting double-action: 6" groups at 10 yards, with an occasional flier off the paper. II. Rossi Model 351, .38 Spl., 2" barrel, shooting handloaded .38 special ammo. A. Two-hand hold, shooting double-action: 5" groups at 10 yards, occasional fliers still on the paper. B. One-handed hold, shooting double-action: 7" groups at 10 yards, occasional fliers mostly still on the paper III. Smith and Wesson Sigma 9VE, DAO 9MM, 4" barrel, shooting 115 grain Winchester USA FMJ ammo A. Two-hand hold: 4" groups at 10 yards, very few fliers still on the paper. B. One-handed hold: 8" groups at 10 yard, occasional flier in the dirt. IV. Ruger Single-Six 22lr, 6.5" barrel, shooting 40-grain lrn Federal Champion ammo A. One-handed hold: 2" groups at 10 yards B. Two-hand hold: 3" groups at 10 yards C. Two hand hold: 6" groups at 25 yards V. Raven .25 ACP, 2" barrel One-handed hold: Almost every shot on an 8.5" X 11" sheet of paper. Now, here's the kicker. My best group ever was a sub-2" group at 10 yards with a borrowed .45ACP. I had never fired the gun before, and I didn't get any warm-up shots. It was a 10-shot group, and I was amazed at how slick the trigger was, and at how each bullet went right where I aimed it (after a few minutes of coaching before I took my first shot.) I don't remember the make of gun it was, but it was one of those foreign-sounding names. I would enjoy that kind of accuracy all the time, but I would never carry a gun with a trigger that light. Maybe I'm not doing that bad after all.

October 18, 2006, 11:17 AM	#43
Abby Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2004 Posts: 139	I'm with clt46910 on this one as to the value of practicing for precision. Chances are, if it ever comes to down to defending ourselves in a CCW situation, we'll be lucky to have enough time for the following thought process: "Oh *!" [draw] "Oh **!" [BANG!] That's why we practice the little stuff. Sure, a nice pretty little shot group might SEEM excessively picky, but it means that a shooter is doing the right things in the right way on the range. THAT dramatically increases the chances of doing the right things in the right way in real life. And I wouldn't say it's a requirement - it's not my place to tell someone what level of proficiency they need to attain before they can defend themselves. For those just starting out, getting all the holes in the "5 zone" at 7 yards can be enough of a challenge. But once you're at that point, there's nothing wrong with moving the target back and working on fine control. But we also have to remember - the holes in the paper at the range are only one part of the equation. I, for one, am pretty good at that. However, I'm pretty deficient in my drawing and presentation. That's where a lot of my focus goes now.

October 18, 2006, 12:05 PM	#44
TrumpetShooter Member Join Date: December 1, 2004 Posts: 42	Good point. To tell the truth, I don't feel all that gratified by shooting a decent group. I just want to shoot one better next time, and shooting for groups doesn't make me feel any more secure on the street. I was robbed at gunpoint in April of 2004, and the robber shot at me. He missed my head by a few inches at about 30 feet. By this time I could undoubtedly outshoot that crook at the range. They don't give jailbirds range time (yet), and the good Lord knows the idiot didn't practice when he was a free man. But the range -- that's not where it counts, is it? I need to get serious about drawing and presenting. I've done a little work in that area, but not consistently. Just last month I started practicing my draws. (I didn't count my "draw and fire" groups in the averages in my previous post.:barf: ) They hit the paper most of the time, but my speed is nothing to brag about. I'm also practicing left-handed a little. One of the guys at the range taught me a drill that I've started to do when I'm alone at the range, which happens about once every couple of weeks. I stand with my back to the target, turn, draw, and fire. I repeat the drill with each gun in both two-hand and one-hand stances. It would be a whole lot better if I had someone to call "Go" or blow a whistle. I'm unable to "surprise" myself, if you know what I mean. At our range we're not allowed to draw and fire if anyone else is present on the firing line. Do you know of some good defense drills for handgunners?

October 18, 2006, 12:34 PM	#45
Samurai Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 901	I can draw and empty a magazine into a dinner-plate-sized area on a silouette at 15 yards (in about 4 seconds). If I take my time, I can reduce that to a tea-cup-sized area (about 30 seconds). I consider myself a rank-amateur. __________________ - Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed! - Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight? - When in doubt, train, train, train...

October 18, 2006, 12:36 PM	#46
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,073	My BIL is in the FBI, and he totally changed my mind about my training goals. First time he and I shot together, I consistently made smaller groups than he did, at slow-fire rested and offhand. That's generally how I shoot. I want to improve consistency and group size. I even made smaller groups than he did with HIS service pistol. I was feeling pretty good about myself. I asked him how he trained. He told me that he was taught, and he firmly believes, that the ability to draw from concealment and get the first few rounds on the target FAST is what will save your life. Shooting small groups at a distance is a valuable skill, but not the skill that is likeliest to save your life. Then he demonstrated, drawing from concealment and putting 4 rounds in a palm-sized group at 10 yards, so fast that I could not believe it. He said getting the first round on target fast was key, and putting multiple rounds on target fast was also important, becasue one hit was not likely to stop a threat. I tried it, and although I was nowhere near as fast as he was, I was also nowhere near as good as he was at putting the first round on the target fast. So I changed the way I train. I can't do fast draws from concealment at my range, so I have to practice that in the garage, with Speer's plastic training bullets. My draw time and accuracy of first shot have improved significantly. At the range, I still do some slow fire at long distance, for small groups, because I enjoy that skill. But I also do some rapid-fire drills, trying to keep several rounds in a reasonable group, as fast as I can. Its a muscle-memory thing, getting the sights out of recoil and back on the target consistently. I should probably get involved in IDPA or IPSC, too. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

October 18, 2006, 12:39 PM	#47
threefivesevenmag Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 406	Matches. After I started doing pistol matches, you really learn what your skill level is at in terms of drawing, shooting different angles, hands, positions, etc...etc... I go to the range twice a month and do a match once or twice a month. Since I've been doing it a bit over a year now, my "skills" are much better. I will say, punching paper is quite boring now...I mean really boring...as standing there and taking aim it's easy to get 1-3 inch groups. I'd suggest getting into some pistol matches and see how well you do. It's very humbling and you learn a lot! You might think you have skills...but you learn quickly from mistakes and inabilities you hadn't even considered. You learn how you react if a gun jams...you learn to get your gun into battery quickly while focusing on the target...tactical reloads, getting a gun from an odd position (ala picking up a stranger's gun from a distance and taking cover...loading it and operating it from that point)...I mean some scenarios are really interesting and make you think a lot more about what you need to really take action if you had to. Plus, it's a lot of fun with a group of like-minded individuals. I know it's no substitution for simmunitions training, etc...but it's as good as I can get right now and I feel a lot more confident in carrying and skill set since doing matches.

October 18, 2006, 01:01 PM	#48
King_chin0 Junior member Join Date: May 2, 2006 Location: Kansas City Posts: 303	I'm sure someone already said this, and there are many who disagrees with me, I think everyone should practice all drills, target, self-defense and all. Be an all around shooter, not just to master one, I mean it is good to master a shooting style, and I hope people would strive to master any shooting style, hip shooting, benchrest, etc. But you never know what is going to happen, and can never predict anything, so being a good shot with any style is a very good idea. So get going and practice!!!! I'm on my way to the range

October 18, 2006, 04:57 PM	#49
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	I fully agree that tight groups are secondary to getting shots on your target quickly. That is why IPSC stresses speed while providing some latitude on accuracy. The alpha hit zone is approximately 11" x 6" for COM and 4" x 2" for head shots. Bravo shots are head shots outside the 4" x 2" alpha zone and is 6" x 6". Charlie shots are torso shots outside of the alpha zone and measure roughly 12" x 18". Delta shots are torso shots outside the charlie zone and measures about 18" x 24". All of this can be found here... page 49. http://www.ipsc.org/pdf/RulesHandgun.pdf So what is the whole point of all those measurements? Basically, alpha hits are considered critical hits since they are located where the medulla oblongata lies for the head shots and a serious chest wound where close to where the heart, lungs, and spine lie for the COM shot. It does not matter if the shots are right on top of each other or on opposite ends of the alpha zone. As long as your shots are in the zone, they count. As Dave said, his brother in law in the FBI trains to get his shots on target quickly rather than going for pretty groupings. This could be what saves your life, especially if the bad guy has a gun pointed at you or is already shooting at you. One type of practice I highly recommend that is similar to what TrumpetShooter said is having the gun at low ready and firing at specific parts of the target as quickly as possible. There are targets that have 5 individual targets on them which can be numbered with a marker. Have a friend call out the number and try to hit the corresponding target as quickly as possible. With practice, this greatly improves your target acquisition time and improves your point shooting ability as well. Try to get used to how your pistol points and shoot without looking "though" your sights. For close distances, you should be able to hit your target very easily. I practice with an airsoft gun at home and have gotten to the point where I can hit my 6" x 6" sticky target from across the room (about 15 feet) while moving laterally. I look over the top of the gun to align the sights rather than looking through the sights. I also use my arm and body to align myself to the target. I know airsoft is not a substitute for life fire, but you can practice much more often and the practice still translates into muscle memory if your airsoft gun is very similar to your carry gun. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

October 18, 2006, 07:18 PM	#50
rem33 Junior member Join Date: March 31, 2006 Posts: 1,528	I hope to never even point at another person so I don't shoot at targets that look like a human. Guys I see at the range that do I tend to shake my head and look away I don't even wanna talk to them. Gives me the thought" hmm wonder if they hope to shoot someone". Thats my feeling on that but I live in a very small rural town, with a very low crime rate. We usta shoot plastic one liter bottles at 100 yards with our single six's the game was who could hit it first free hand, or stand up shot gun shells at 50 feet or so. I have a Ruger SP101 two inch in a 357 and on occasion it is with me but I hope to never use it and if that situation comes up I will depend on all the hours I have spent with a pistol in my hand to protect me. Unless your a cop or in the service I see no need to be practicing shooting people. Just learn to be a good shot and very familiar with your gun.