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May 23, 2013, 11:53 PM | #76 | ||||||
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Hmmm
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Also, you juxtaposed two different things - physical force, and deadly physical force. Quote:
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....13&DocType=ARS Quote:
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But, I've digressed, apologies to the OP, this thread wasn't just about one state. Hopefully the info was useful. |
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May 24, 2013, 06:05 AM | #77 | ||
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Just to nitpick, in Arizona one is permitted to exercise defensive display when physical force is justified and when there is a reason to believe that it is immediately necessary to defend against physical force, while in one of the others, the law reads that one may lawfully draw when physical force is justified. Quote:
Arizona attorney Michael P. Anthony recommends that persons who do not face an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death do not draw. See page 40 of this. Anthony goes on to say (referring to Arizona law) that under other circumstances in which defensive display is justified, it should be restricted to verbally informing the aggressor that one is armed and/or placing one's hand on the firearm without drawing. Last edited by OldMarksman; May 24, 2013 at 06:52 AM. |
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May 24, 2013, 07:46 AM | #78 |
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Personally, I'd recommend getting some retention training if part of your plan is to notify the aggressor or to make a defensive display.
I recommend retention training to CCers in general, but the perceived need - to me - becomes that much higher to anybody who leans toward a deliberate revelation or display. |
May 24, 2013, 08:05 AM | #79 |
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I think very often, the sight of a firearm will end the threat, and have the attacker fleeing. However, many of these incidents are not reported, as nothing has really happened. No shots fired, and nobody harmed.
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May 24, 2013, 08:33 AM | #80 | |
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Likewise I think it bad idea to draw when the BG is 50 feet away yelling about how he is going to kick your butt and slowly moving toward you. Are you going to draw at this point and hope the BG runs away ? Again I think it depends upon your jurisdiction. As crappy as it sounds, in California the DOJ publication indicates that one is expected to take a beatdown before drawing a weapon.
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May 24, 2013, 08:44 AM | #81 |
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As stated many time depends on your state law. Here in FLA they state statute states that presenting (brandishing) a firearm to gain the upper hand in a situation is a no-no. Felony, loss of CCW and jail time and worst of all no more owning of firearms.
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May 24, 2013, 09:47 AM | #82 | |
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Circumstances change, and things that happen, are based on the changing circumstances. Case in point, trip to Rochester, from Toronto, when? My mind does not work that way, early 80s, say. Me and a buddy, Jim, went to a PPC match, the snub nose portion, Jim was in bed! Instant flu. As I don't share rooms, only with my Wife, no inconvenience to me, but it meant I went off to compete on my own. Holiday Inn? I think, on the main St. Gun case, aluminum brief case, with my match snubby, speed loaders, ammo, holster, etc. Plus my Colt LT in a holster, on belt, this was in the old days when we Canucks could get permits for NYS. Coming back, all floors of the parking garage full, except the top one. I parked, nose in, so I could get to the trunk, and started to head for the stairs, two young Black guys, jeans and big tee's, standing on each side of the entrance to the stairs, both in the same pose, leaned against a car, flat of the one foot against the car. This meant when I entered that funnel, I would have been in between the two of them, three feet from both. They both were looking at my Camera case, I stopped at twenty one feet from them, slid the case a few inches, on the gravel, both looking at it, when I stood up, .45 in both hands, pointed at 45' degrees. "You are in my way Lads" limy accent. The gun was the accent negater! One took off across my front, left to right, in front of the parked cars, his buddy went the same way, but behind the cars. I heard a dull clunk, and the guy at the rear of the cars, is now limping real bad. They both headed down the ramp. I walked over to see what caused the Clunk! Big old boat of a station wagon, with an extended tow bar! That must have hurt. I told the desk Lady, two kids were hanging about, but no mention of my LT Weight Commander! Did I report it? No Sir. |
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May 24, 2013, 11:07 AM | #83 |
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Re: ending threat just by presentation?
I have drawn (and presented) my weapon once and it stopped the threat.
A guy tried to grab my pistol out of my holster while I was out and about on the family farm. I reacted by putting him on the ground and then drawing my pistol to make sure he wasn't going to try anything else. After seeing the gun he mellowed out pretty quickly. |
May 24, 2013, 11:15 AM | #84 | ||
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But, something has really happened. There has been a crime, or the defender could not have lawfully presented a firearm. There are several very good reasons for the lawful defender to report such an incident. One is that by being the first to report it, he or she has a lower chance of being reported by a witness as having committed a crime. Another is to enable the police to pursue a dangerous criminal. |
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May 24, 2013, 12:59 PM | #85 | |
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But when some poll shows a favorable pro-gun or pro-delf defense outcome, it is challenged and called "not representative", or the "sample size is too small" for a meaningful, or accurate result? The reason you won't find any "meaningful" statistics on how many times the mere presentation of a gun ended a situation is because that the vast majority of these times do not get reported to the police, and of the tiny number that do, it is only a tiny fraction of them that get notice in the press. The cops don't track the numbers of crimes averted, because the potential victim chased the attacker off. They seldom get involved unless shots are fired, and even then often not. They already have more than enough to do. Kleck estimates that defensive gun use, with no shots fired, happens over 2 million times a year. It is only an estimate, because data to base any firm conclusion on simply does not exist. The overwhelming majority of times when a gun's mere presence prevents some crime from happening do not get reported to police, or the news. They never become anything more than personal anequdotes.
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May 24, 2013, 01:51 PM | #86 | ||
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Many people seem to have come to believe that because of the existence and power of internet search engines, they ought to be able to obtain factual stats on anything. But if people do not record data and enter them into a searchable database in the first place, that cannot be done. Quote:
The answer? Surveys. A la Kleck. |
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May 24, 2013, 04:09 PM | #87 | |
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Many people have called law enforcement for help or trying to be a helpful citizen only to find themselves in handcuffs facing prison time. Not that it is always the fault of the officers but we have a legal system that is not always looking out for the better of our citizens. Someone calls law enforcement says they just scared off 3 robbers at gun point they now have one guy who has admittedly threatened people with a gun=felony. Then if they get the 3 guys they will just say something like "we just asked for a lighter.” The only case law enforcement and prosecutor has is the guy with the gun. Sorry “it's the law..” Sorry “just doing my job..” Not saying people should not call law enforcement but be careful. Results may vary. |
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May 24, 2013, 06:59 PM | #88 | ||
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May 24, 2013, 08:11 PM | #89 | |
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I know we all like to think we could do it if necessary, but no one "knows" until they are actually there. I'm not overly concerned about my willingness to do what I need to do, but I do get concerned about collateral damage, because unlike the police, us civilians don't get to spray bullets. |
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May 24, 2013, 09:16 PM | #90 | ||
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Are you trying to say it doesn't happen? or has never been documented? ----------------- A Missouri homeowner was arrested after running off a pair of thieves at gunpoint. When the police respond to “man with a gun” reports and find a man with a gun, they tend to arrest the man and let the judge sort it out. https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...andishing-law/ NH HOMEOWNER ARRESTED FOR FIRING WARNING SHOT DURING BURGLARY “The single grandfather had returned home to find that his home had been burglarized and spotted Joseph Hebert, 27, climbing out of a window at a neighbor’s home. Fleming said he yelled “Freeze!” before firing his gun into the ground, then held Hebert at gunpoint until police arrived.” Sounds like a good outcome to most, doesn’t it? Apparently not to New Hampshire police. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012...ring-burglary/ "Police did not investigate anything," Pierre said. "They just came and said, 'Let's lock this guy up'." Pierre says he was taken to jail and charged with improper display of a weapon. But he maintains he was defending himself, and the judge eventually agreed. http://www.610wiod.com/articles/wiod...tand-10095842/ Quote:
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May 24, 2013, 11:07 PM | #91 |
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Deepcreek, in your first example, the homeowner was acquitted; faced with two conflicting reports, it's not clear what else the police could have done but arrest him. In your second example, the gentleman was arrested not for brandishing, but for reckless conduct -- he fired a warning shot, which is a no-no in most places, and is hardly an example of just "showing a weapon." In your third example, all charges against the homeowner were dropped after the investigation was finished.
In fact, none of these cases involved a person who were just, in your words, calling "...law enforcement for help or trying to be a helpful citizen only to find themselves in handcuffs facing prison time." And the conclusion of the third article you cited is worth quoting: The cases finding an act to be brandishing have first found the guest of honor to have threatened another person or persons with a weapon, or had uttered threats while holding a weapon. Displaying anger while in possession of a weapon is considered a sufficient substitute for threats. One cannot be found guilty of brandishing a weapon unless one is shown to have been angry or threatening. This is an excellent reason to keep one’s temper and mind one’s manners.It's wishful thinking to believe that everyone who defends him- or herself with a gun is automatically a "good guy" and should be treated as such by police no matter what; real life isn't that simple.
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May 25, 2013, 12:27 AM | #92 | |||||||||||
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You wrote: But that's not what happened with Bernie Goetz. Goetz claimed that four men tried to rob him on a subway train and that he shot them in self defense. Immediately after the shooting, he fled to Vermont and destroyed evidence. He successfully evaded police for a period before finally surrendering to police in New Hampshire. Goetz was ultimately acquitted by a jury of attempted murder and assault, based on his plea of self defense. He was convicted of criminal possession of a gun and went to prison for that.
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May 25, 2013, 07:09 AM | #93 |
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Frank, I delved into the Bernie Goetz story you posted, amazing. I had heard of this before, but not in depth.
What he was finally convicted of, and the few months he spent in jail? Amazing. |
May 25, 2013, 08:55 AM | #94 | |
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ending threat just by presentation?
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I'm glad he was released. That was a time we didn't have 17+ round magazines. 6 rounds all met their mark. According to what he said I'm glad he didn't have a speed loader handy. Then it would have been murder. |
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May 25, 2013, 09:56 AM | #95 |
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My shop is still on the Newtown/Blackwell border in S. RIchmond.
I've had to draw without shooting 15-20 times over the years. Drawn and shot once. I was prepared to shoot each time but some snakes can spin so fast they'd have caught the bullet in the back. I once drew and addressed two dudes in my shop yard poking around. Wife covered with a drawn firearm in one hand, phone with PD in the other. It was two LEO's investigating last night's crime. They were in civies and slowly showed ID, badges, and holstered weapons. We stood down and they said we correctly handled the situation. Once, while helping PD arrest two suspects, somebody stepped out of the crowd with a pistol in his hand and LEO's had their backs to him. I drew and hollered. He froze, saw me pointing at him and the LEO's turned to see the commotion and he took off through the crowd. I had a very real chance of hitting innocents and it was a tense 1/2 second or so. This happened when there were 'bounties' on Richmond PD. LEO's said I did it correctly. I got out my truck once and some idiot starting shooting at me. I drew as I took cover. Behind him was a busy street with pedestrians. I held fire and he realized I was aiming at him. He took off and I let him go. I didn't even bother reporting it. A crazed addict on something tried coming through my screen door at the shop. Reason wasn't working and I finally said I would shoot on the count of five. At three, he stopped and saw the pistol through a hole less than a foot from is head and stepped back. He screamed a lot of stuff, but the threat was gone. He left. He could even have been the one in the previous incident. No PD called either. Recently, I heard voices outside and then, "Not here! He shoots!" the voices receded and the 7-11 was robbed with two shot an hour later. Such is my life and the incidents have slowed. There is NO cut and dried answer. My front yard.
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May 25, 2013, 10:07 AM | #96 | ||
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I have heard enough news stories and stories from from friends in law enforcement to come to the conclusion that if you pull a gun on someone you very well might face felony charges. I agree what “actually happened” can be vague with different sides but it can also be common scene, usually a guy doesn’t break your door when you are gone because “he thought he was at his friends house” Quote:
“Paramedics and police did find a total of three screwdrivers on two of the men.” Basically the same concept the bad guys try to rob him then say they just asked for change. No way to prove they were trying to rob him in court, but common sense tells us that 4 guys do not usually surround you with sharpened screwdrivers just politely asking for some spare change. Goetz just gets to prove he acted in self defense. |
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May 25, 2013, 11:29 AM | #97 | |||||||
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As another member here so well stated here:
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May 25, 2013, 11:42 AM | #98 | ||
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edit Self Defense situations are basically fights. you do not agree with someone intentions and you fight them. So their is a fight police get involved and 2 people have are fighting, weapons, guns, etc. Fact: Felonies can and do come out of these situations who is the "bad guy" ??? who ever wins the legal fight. Do good guy always win the legal fight? Quote:
Reason-2 By reporting an "incident" you are giving statements and possible incriminating your self in a crime without consulting legal advice. Last edited by deepcreek; May 25, 2013 at 12:54 PM. |
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May 25, 2013, 12:44 PM | #99 | |
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The problem is, the armed citizen who displays a weapon risks being reported by (1) the persons whom he or she claims to have been the aggressors; (2) other witnesses; and/or (3), security camera images. In the not unlikely event that the incident is reported by someone else, incriminating evidence will already exist, and as Frank Ettin has explained, it is then up to the armed citizen to present evidence supporting lawful justification. Failure to report the incident would generally be looked upon as an indication of guilt; being first to report it is strongly recommended by most knowledgeable people. |
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May 25, 2013, 01:09 PM | #100 | ||
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Maybe the armed citizen doesn't have any "evidence supporting lawful justification" video, voice recording, witnesses, So basically they would be admitting to a felony with no evidence of justification. Quote:
The only point I am trying to make is calling 911 might not always be the best strategy. and that the good guy does not always win in court. |
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