CCW Class

andrewskaggs · September 9, 2008, 11:41 AM

I finally found a concealed carry class that didn't conflict with something I already had going on in my schedule, so I went to the first session last night. We were asked to bring the gun we intended to carry so that our instructors could verify its safety, so I took my S&W Sigma in .40 S&W.

Our instructors encouraged us to ask questions throughout the night and at one point one of the other attendees asked a question which he prefaced with "I don't know much about handguns...." This statement piqued my interest, so I glanced over to see what he had brought to class as his intended carry piece. Imagine my surprise when I looked over and saw a S&W N-Frame (I think) with a 6.5" barrel chambered in 44 mag.

To each his own I suppose, but I know one thing for certain...I'm going to be on the far end of the firing line from him when we qualify and I'm going to have plenty of hearing protection. He's going to wish he'd brought something smaller when he gets finished with his quals, methinks.

Keltyke · September 9, 2008, 11:52 AM

Everyone should carry what they shoot best with. Some states limit the size of the carry gun. Some states make you qualify with the gun you intend to carry.

As for the noise, any good set of muffs with at least a 28dB rating will protect you against the BOOM gun.

Frankly, I agree with you. If your state doesn't have open carry, he'll have a hard time concealing that hogleg.

"I don't know much about guns..." I hear that a lot and frankly, it scares me. A lot of people who have never even shot a gun before are trying to get CWPs. I believe at least a minimum handgun safety course should be required (or taken by exam) before the CWP class can be taken.

redhart · September 9, 2008, 01:41 PM

Maybe they are playing "possum" of sorts with you.....could just be a humble sort of guy, but I agree watch him close.

davlandrum · September 9, 2008, 02:17 PM

Might have been other reasons for the CCW class. I got a stern talking to by LEO while hunting in the rain because my jacket was covering my sidearm. Was told in no uncertain terms to keep it outside the jacket or get a CCW. he might not intend to carry on a daily basis.

Flyboy_451 · September 9, 2008, 05:14 PM

This type of situation is not uncommon at all, and unfortunately, some instructors deal with it better than others. I make it known to anyone who wishes to take a CCW class from me, that if you are not already knowledgeable and proficient with your firearm, you are not likely to pass my class. I have set a standard for a passing grade that is more stringent than the state mandates and make this VERY CLEAR to any potential clients. If all they are in search of is an instructor that will sign them off for CCW with minimum fuss or effort they are better off not wasting my time or theirs by attending one of my classes.

A CCW class should not be an introduction to firearm basics. This is why there are courses such as the NRAs Basic Pistol Course. My role as an instructor is to try to ensure that they have a clear understanding of laws regarding the use lethal force in self defense, and that they are capable of handling a firearm in a safe manner. Many states that require a scored range session and practicle skills demonstration do not set the bar high enough for me to feel comfortable signing someone off if all they accomplish are the minimums. At a minimum, this makes the instructors morally liable, if not legally liable should this person act in a manner that would call into question the quality of the training.

IMHO CCW classes should not be confused with classes intended to teach the basics of safe gun handling to those who have little or no experience. While i frown on any legislation that restricts the rights of people to carry, I feel a responsibility as an instructor to insure that the people in my classes are well prepared for the responsibility of carrying a gun in public. For those that are about to flame me for acting in a way that would limit the rights of others, bear in mind that there are many other instructors in this area, and I know that at least some of them will sign off on almost anyone. My classes are the most expensive that I am aware of in this area, and I feel and have been told that they are the most extensive. All of my clients are informed, in writing, that the requirements to achieve a passing grade from me are far above the state mandated requirements. I may not turn out as many permit holders as other instructors, but I truly believe that my clients are better prepared to exercise good judgment and superior skills compared to the average of many other instructors. That is my goal, and I am currently booked through June of next year with no advertising other than word of mouth.

Justin

NAKing · September 9, 2008, 07:04 PM

Justin,

You sound like a really good instructor.

Flyboy_451 · September 9, 2008, 07:10 PM

Thank you NAKing!!! The best compliment I have ever received as an instructor came from my flight instructor. After taking my CCW class, Charlie (Who is an FAA Gold Seal Instructor, and considered among other flight instructors to be one of the best in the area) has sent multiple referrals my way. I'm not sure you could ask for a better compliment.

Justin

orionengnr · September 9, 2008, 09:34 PM

Keep up the good work.
Many of us expect first-rate instruction when we pay for it.
Too often, we don't receive it.

NAKing · September 10, 2008, 10:33 AM

Wow, and you're a fellow pilot and CFI (or CFII) too! Well now you just CAN'T be a bad guy.

I am a professional flight major in college.

Keltyke · September 10, 2008, 10:47 AM

Quote:

I have set a standard for a passing grade that is more stringent than the state mandates

While I agree with your reasoning, your execution is unreasonable.

First, I AM in favor of knowing handgun safety and handling before taking a CWP course.

I don't know about Missouri, but in SC it's illegal for an instructor to require more than the law mandates for passing a state CWP course.

Glenn E. Meyer · September 10, 2008, 11:32 AM

As long as you informed them, Justin - you are on the mark. Good job.

Many folks get their training from the movies, it seems.

Flyboy_451 · September 10, 2008, 12:03 PM

I am curious why you think my execution is unreasonable. All clients are informed, in writing, of the more stringent requirements and are free to seek certification from a multitude of other instructors.

Missouri law states that an instructor "shall not give a grade of "passing" to an applicant for a concealed carry endorsement who:

...(2) Handles a firearm in a manner that, in the judgment of the qualified firearm safety instructor, poses a danger to the applicant or others..."

While the state does mandate what information must be covered in training courses, including handgun safety and basic marksmanship, it does not mandate specific requirements such as length of time that must be devoted to any requirement. I have chosen to focus training provided on legal issues rather than trying to take someone from ground zero to competency in an abbreviated time frame. I feel this gives my clients a better overall training experience and provides them with a stronger base of knowledge from which to make judgments and decisions. As for more stringent requirements for a "passing grade", in my judgment, if someone can not complete my course with acceptable marks, they are not someone that I would feel confident in being able to manipulate a firearm safely in a stressful environment. I expect my clients to already posses skills that may require some polish, but to go from zero experience to a level of ability that I would consider safe for carry use is not something that is accomplished in a single day considering the amount of other information that must be covered in class. For those that are not familiar with firearms, I also provide both private and classroom instruction on general firearms safety and handling as well as defensive shooting. I have, on many occasions, provided basic instruction over the course of multiple range visits for people that fall in this category, at reduced cost, so that they are better prepared for my class.

Justin

Flyboy_451 · September 10, 2008, 12:06 PM

NAking,

Not a CFI but I do hold a private certificate with instrument rating. Charlie, my CFII, is pushing me to get my commercial and CFI/II and come work with him part time though. LOL

Justin

Keltyke · September 10, 2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

All clients are informed, in writing, of the more stringent requirements and are free to seek certification from a multitude of other instructors.

Missouri law states that an instructor "shall not give a grade of "passing" to an applicant for a concealed carry endorsement who:

...(2) Handles a firearm in a manner that, in the judgment of the qualified firearm safety instructor, poses a danger to the applicant or others..."

In light of the nebulous wording of MS law, your requirements are proper.

You're right, anyone is free to seek other training, and some probably do.

Mr. Glenn E. Meyer, I find your posts and thinly veiled comments to me to be personally sarcastic, argumentative, and provoking. You are arrogant, egotistical, and rude. And ignored. Bye.

Glenn E. Meyer · September 10, 2008, 12:22 PM

I apologize for being argumentative and provoking. I just found your views unreasonable and in some cases bad advice.

Put me on an ignore list.

Flyboy_451 · September 10, 2008, 12:27 PM

Personally, I would prefer that a permit was not required to carry concealed. But since this is not the case, I strive to make the required training as beneficial as I can for my clients.

Justin

Threefeathers · September 10, 2008, 05:23 PM

I'm going to LFI as the last stage in getting my CCW instructors permit. In AZ a CCW permit allows the bearer to carry a gun loaded in a vehicle in any manner he wants. I often carry a hogleg as I traverse the border, I leave it in an insurance office when I cross the border.
Many cowboys have their CCW's just to carry something big under the seat of the pick up. Then carry open when in the saddle.

September 9, 2008, 11:41 AM	#1
andrewskaggs Member Join Date: July 30, 2008 Posts: 62	CCW Class I finally found a concealed carry class that didn't conflict with something I already had going on in my schedule, so I went to the first session last night. We were asked to bring the gun we intended to carry so that our instructors could verify its safety, so I took my S&W Sigma in .40 S&W. Our instructors encouraged us to ask questions throughout the night and at one point one of the other attendees asked a question which he prefaced with "I don't know much about handguns...." This statement piqued my interest, so I glanced over to see what he had brought to class as his intended carry piece. Imagine my surprise when I looked over and saw a S&W N-Frame (I think) with a 6.5" barrel chambered in 44 mag. To each his own I suppose, but I know one thing for certain...I'm going to be on the far end of the firing line from him when we qualify and I'm going to have plenty of hearing protection. He's going to wish he'd brought something smaller when he gets finished with his quals, methinks.

September 9, 2008, 02:17 PM	#4
davlandrum Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Lane County Oregon Posts: 2,547	Might have been other reasons for the CCW class. I got a stern talking to by LEO while hunting in the rain because my jacket was covering my sidearm. Was told in no uncertain terms to keep it outside the jacket or get a CCW. he might not intend to carry on a daily basis. __________________ U.S Army, Retired Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do. -Potter Stewart

September 10, 2008, 11:32 AM	#11
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	As long as you informed them, Justin - you are on the mark. Good job. Many folks get their training from the movies, it seems. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

September 10, 2008, 12:22 PM	#15
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I apologize for being argumentative and provoking. I just found your views unreasonable and in some cases bad advice. Put me on an ignore list. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

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September 9, 2008, 11:52 AM	#2
Keltyke Junior member Join Date: April 6, 2008 Location: Spartanburg, SC Posts: 2,933	Everyone should carry what they shoot best with. Some states limit the size of the carry gun. Some states make you qualify with the gun you intend to carry. As for the noise, any good set of muffs with at least a 28dB rating will protect you against the BOOM gun. Frankly, I agree with you. If your state doesn't have open carry, he'll have a hard time concealing that hogleg. "I don't know much about guns..." I hear that a lot and frankly, it scares me. A lot of people who have never even shot a gun before are trying to get CWPs. I believe at least a minimum handgun safety course should be required (or taken by exam) before the CWP class can be taken.

September 9, 2008, 01:41 PM	#3
redhart Member Join Date: April 13, 2008 Location: east coast Posts: 60	Maybe they are playing "possum" of sorts with you.....could just be a humble sort of guy, but I agree watch him close.

September 9, 2008, 05:14 PM	#5
Flyboy_451 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 172	This type of situation is not uncommon at all, and unfortunately, some instructors deal with it better than others. I make it known to anyone who wishes to take a CCW class from me, that if you are not already knowledgeable and proficient with your firearm, you are not likely to pass my class. I have set a standard for a passing grade that is more stringent than the state mandates and make this VERY CLEAR to any potential clients. If all they are in search of is an instructor that will sign them off for CCW with minimum fuss or effort they are better off not wasting my time or theirs by attending one of my classes. A CCW class should not be an introduction to firearm basics. This is why there are courses such as the NRAs Basic Pistol Course. My role as an instructor is to try to ensure that they have a clear understanding of laws regarding the use lethal force in self defense, and that they are capable of handling a firearm in a safe manner. Many states that require a scored range session and practicle skills demonstration do not set the bar high enough for me to feel comfortable signing someone off if all they accomplish are the minimums. At a minimum, this makes the instructors morally liable, if not legally liable should this person act in a manner that would call into question the quality of the training. IMHO CCW classes should not be confused with classes intended to teach the basics of safe gun handling to those who have little or no experience. While i frown on any legislation that restricts the rights of people to carry, I feel a responsibility as an instructor to insure that the people in my classes are well prepared for the responsibility of carrying a gun in public. For those that are about to flame me for acting in a way that would limit the rights of others, bear in mind that there are many other instructors in this area, and I know that at least some of them will sign off on almost anyone. My classes are the most expensive that I am aware of in this area, and I feel and have been told that they are the most extensive. All of my clients are informed, in writing, that the requirements to achieve a passing grade from me are far above the state mandated requirements. I may not turn out as many permit holders as other instructors, but I truly believe that my clients are better prepared to exercise good judgment and superior skills compared to the average of many other instructors. That is my goal, and I am currently booked through June of next year with no advertising other than word of mouth. Justin

September 9, 2008, 07:04 PM	#6
NAKing Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2008 Posts: 304	Justin, You sound like a really good instructor.

September 9, 2008, 07:10 PM	#7
Flyboy_451 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 172	Thank you NAKing!!! The best compliment I have ever received as an instructor came from my flight instructor. After taking my CCW class, Charlie (Who is an FAA Gold Seal Instructor, and considered among other flight instructors to be one of the best in the area) has sent multiple referrals my way. I'm not sure you could ask for a better compliment. Justin

September 9, 2008, 09:34 PM	#8
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,173	Keep up the good work. Many of us expect first-rate instruction when we pay for it. Too often, we don't receive it.

September 10, 2008, 10:33 AM	#9
NAKing Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2008 Posts: 304	Wow, and you're a fellow pilot and CFI (or CFII) too! Well now you just CAN'T be a bad guy. I am a professional flight major in college.

September 10, 2008, 12:03 PM	#12
Flyboy_451 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 172	I am curious why you think my execution is unreasonable. All clients are informed, in writing, of the more stringent requirements and are free to seek certification from a multitude of other instructors. Missouri law states that an instructor "shall not give a grade of "passing" to an applicant for a concealed carry endorsement who: ...(2) Handles a firearm in a manner that, in the judgment of the qualified firearm safety instructor, poses a danger to the applicant or others..." While the state does mandate what information must be covered in training courses, including handgun safety and basic marksmanship, it does not mandate specific requirements such as length of time that must be devoted to any requirement. I have chosen to focus training provided on legal issues rather than trying to take someone from ground zero to competency in an abbreviated time frame. I feel this gives my clients a better overall training experience and provides them with a stronger base of knowledge from which to make judgments and decisions. As for more stringent requirements for a "passing grade", in my judgment, if someone can not complete my course with acceptable marks, they are not someone that I would feel confident in being able to manipulate a firearm safely in a stressful environment. I expect my clients to already posses skills that may require some polish, but to go from zero experience to a level of ability that I would consider safe for carry use is not something that is accomplished in a single day considering the amount of other information that must be covered in class. For those that are not familiar with firearms, I also provide both private and classroom instruction on general firearms safety and handling as well as defensive shooting. I have, on many occasions, provided basic instruction over the course of multiple range visits for people that fall in this category, at reduced cost, so that they are better prepared for my class. Justin

September 10, 2008, 12:06 PM	#13
Flyboy_451 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 172	NAking, Not a CFI but I do hold a private certificate with instrument rating. Charlie, my CFII, is pushing me to get my commercial and CFI/II and come work with him part time though. LOL Justin

September 10, 2008, 12:27 PM	#16
Flyboy_451 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2008 Location: Missouri Posts: 172	Personally, I would prefer that a permit was not required to carry concealed. But since this is not the case, I strive to make the required training as beneficial as I can for my clients. Justin

September 10, 2008, 05:23 PM	#17
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	I'm going to LFI as the last stage in getting my CCW instructors permit. In AZ a CCW permit allows the bearer to carry a gun loaded in a vehicle in any manner he wants. I often carry a hogleg as I traverse the border, I leave it in an insurance office when I cross the border. Many cowboys have their CCW's just to carry something big under the seat of the pick up. Then carry open when in the saddle.