Age/Grade of Remington Model 11 12 Ga.

DG45 · September 21, 2009, 11:32 PM

I'd like to know the year of manufacture and grade of a 12 guage Remington model 11 semi-automatic five-shot shotgun, SN# 406xxx; Browning US Pats 689,283 - 710,094 - 730,870 - 812,326.

The gun is blued, with a Pheasant engraved on one side and a duck engraved on the other, with some factory scrollwork engraving too. The stock looks like expensive wood and the forearm is deeply checkered; you can feel the carving work. There also appears to be an area of checkering on the pistol grip area of the butt stock but the "checkering" in that area is perfectly smooth to the touch. I don't know if it was just fake checkering all along or if it was once carved but has been worn down to where it's smooth through years of handling.

The barrel says CYL which means it has an unchoked "cylinder" barrel. The barrel actually measures 25" long but it must have been considered a 26" barrel since the only options I'm aware of that Remington offered on this gun were barrels in 2" increments - as in 22" or 24" or 26" or 28" or 30". I don't think the barrel has been shortened.

Any assistance with identification of age and grade will be appreciated. Thank You.

impalacustom · September 22, 2009, 02:03 AM

The shotgun was made in the month of June 1938. The early years the only ones that were rollmarked with the pheasants and ducks, they were the 3 shot sportsmans. Later if I recall all the model 11's 5 shot and 3 shots got the pheasant and duck rollmark.

zombieslayer · September 22, 2009, 08:24 AM

My grandad just passed away, and left me the barrel/mag tube pump section of a model 11. Wish I had the rest of the gun

Scorch · September 22, 2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

The barrel says CYL which means it has an unchoked "cylinder" barrel

That is a common misconception. Actually, Cylinder choked barrels (often called True Cylinder) have a standard constriction of .001-.002". Truly unchoked barrels do not pattern consistently.

When measuring barrels, did you measure down the bore from the muzzle to the breech face?

DG45 · September 22, 2009, 05:46 PM

The barrel is actually 26" long. It's obvious when viewed from the loading port under the gun. Thanks to Impalacustom for the June 1938 date of manufacture. I'm guessing that Impalacustom's reference to "rollmark" means something bad; like this is not really engraving? Thank you also Scorch for the way to measure the barrel.

impalacustom · September 23, 2009, 03:12 AM

It's not bad at all, what roll marking is they have a "roll" with an engraving and they run the part, in this case the receiver under this "roll" and it presses the image into the metal.

There were not a lot of truely engraved Model 11's out there. There is one on gunbroker right now though. I have a few pictures of some if you pm me I'll email them for you.

99% of all guns out there are roll marked and not engraved as people like to think. If you look at Colt 1911's you'll notice people refer to them as NRM and ORM, they mean New Roll Mark and Old Roll Mark.

So roll marking isn't bad at all it's just a way to mass produce an "engraved" effect on a common gun.

DG45 · September 24, 2009, 02:01 PM

1. I got a flashlight and a magnifying glass (helps my old eyes on close work) and took a look at what I originally thought was an imperfection on the barrel of my Remington Model 11, just in front of the CYL marking. On close inspection the imperfection turned out to be the letters IMP. So what I originally thought was a cylinder barrel is apparently an improved cylinder barrel; therefore the barrel is at least choked a little. Which is fine with me. The strange thing is that the letters IMP and CYL aren't of the same depth in the metal, and they don't line up perfectly like they would if they'd been imprinted at the same time - instead, the IMP looks a little lower than the CYL, sort of like the CYL imprint was already there when somebody added the IMP imprint which he lined up a little off. Question: Can I be certain that this is an Improved Cylinder? If so, will it still shoot slugs?

2. I think my particular gun shoots a 2 3/4 inch shell, but no shell size is specified on the barrel markings. I've read that some of the older Model 11 guns shot 2 1/2 inch shells, but these guns were made after about 1911 or so, so what's the definition of old in this case? My gun was built in 1938. I've also read that some of these guns shot 2 3/4inch shells, and others shot 3" shells. But, with no barrel markings to tell me, how can I tell which size shell it takes? If I have to measure something, please draw me a picture (with words ) because I may not understand the correct terminology. Thingamajig is what I call stuff sometimes.

3. My commercial gun looks exactly like the early WWII military model shown below, but mine doesn't have any military stampings. Also mine apparently has an improved cylinder barrel, which is what the hyperlinked article below says was standard for the military model too, although the military model shown in the hyperlink was apparently re-barreled in 1951. My 1938 guns SN# is 406xxx. The sn# on the 1942 WWII military gun shown in the hyperlink below is 467,332. The military gun has exactly the same checkering on the stock and forearm as my 4 year older commercial model and it has exactly the same pheasant and duck roll mark. (Very strange for a military gun!) The 1942 military gun was obviously the same grade shotgun as my 1938 commercial model. I wonder what grade that was? Now here's that hyperlink:

http://www.coolgunsite.com/images/sh...ton_mod11b.htm

oneounceload · September 24, 2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Question: Can I be certain that this is an Improved Cylinder? If so, will it still shoot slugs?

Take it to a pattern board and see what results you get. A barrel marking is only an indicator of what it is SUPPOSED to do. What it ACTUALLY does, will depend on the ammunition. Shotguns can be a finicky as rifles and pistols to a degree about what they shoot well and what they do not.

September 21, 2009, 11:32 PM	#1
DG45 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Posts: 904	Age/Grade of Remington Model 11 12 Ga. I'd like to know the year of manufacture and grade of a 12 guage Remington model 11 semi-automatic five-shot shotgun, SN# 406xxx; Browning US Pats 689,283 - 710,094 - 730,870 - 812,326. The gun is blued, with a Pheasant engraved on one side and a duck engraved on the other, with some factory scrollwork engraving too. The stock looks like expensive wood and the forearm is deeply checkered; you can feel the carving work. There also appears to be an area of checkering on the pistol grip area of the butt stock but the "checkering" in that area is perfectly smooth to the touch. I don't know if it was just fake checkering all along or if it was once carved but has been worn down to where it's smooth through years of handling. The barrel says CYL which means it has an unchoked "cylinder" barrel. The barrel actually measures 25" long but it must have been considered a 26" barrel since the only options I'm aware of that Remington offered on this gun were barrels in 2" increments - as in 22" or 24" or 26" or 28" or 30". I don't think the barrel has been shortened. Any assistance with identification of age and grade will be appreciated. Thank You.

September 24, 2009, 02:01 PM	#7
DG45 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Posts: 904	1. I got a flashlight and a magnifying glass (helps my old eyes on close work) and took a look at what I originally thought was an imperfection on the barrel of my Remington Model 11, just in front of the CYL marking. On close inspection the imperfection turned out to be the letters IMP. So what I originally thought was a cylinder barrel is apparently an improved cylinder barrel; therefore the barrel is at least choked a little. Which is fine with me. The strange thing is that the letters IMP and CYL aren't of the same depth in the metal, and they don't line up perfectly like they would if they'd been imprinted at the same time - instead, the IMP looks a little lower than the CYL, sort of like the CYL imprint was already there when somebody added the IMP imprint which he lined up a little off. Question: Can I be certain that this is an Improved Cylinder? If so, will it still shoot slugs? 2. I think my particular gun shoots a 2 3/4 inch shell, but no shell size is specified on the barrel markings. I've read that some of the older Model 11 guns shot 2 1/2 inch shells, but these guns were made after about 1911 or so, so what's the definition of old in this case? My gun was built in 1938. I've also read that some of these guns shot 2 3/4inch shells, and others shot 3" shells. But, with no barrel markings to tell me, how can I tell which size shell it takes? If I have to measure something, please draw me a picture (with words ) because I may not understand the correct terminology. Thingamajig is what I call stuff sometimes. 3. My commercial gun looks exactly like the early WWII military model shown below, but mine doesn't have any military stampings. Also mine apparently has an improved cylinder barrel, which is what the hyperlinked article below says was standard for the military model too, although the military model shown in the hyperlink was apparently re-barreled in 1951. My 1938 guns SN# is 406xxx. The sn# on the 1942 WWII military gun shown in the hyperlink below is 467,332. The military gun has exactly the same checkering on the stock and forearm as my 4 year older commercial model and it has exactly the same pheasant and duck roll mark. (Very strange for a military gun!) The 1942 military gun was obviously the same grade shotgun as my 1938 commercial model. I wonder what grade that was? Now here's that hyperlink: http://www.coolgunsite.com/images/sh...ton_mod11b.htm Last edited by DG45; September 24, 2009 at 02:13 PM.

September 22, 2009, 02:03 AM	#2
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	The shotgun was made in the month of June 1938. The early years the only ones that were rollmarked with the pheasants and ducks, they were the 3 shot sportsmans. Later if I recall all the model 11's 5 shot and 3 shots got the pheasant and duck rollmark.

September 22, 2009, 08:24 AM	#3
zombieslayer Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,198	My grandad just passed away, and left me the barrel/mag tube pump section of a model 11. Wish I had the rest of the gun

September 22, 2009, 05:46 PM	#5
DG45 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Posts: 904	The barrel is actually 26" long. It's obvious when viewed from the loading port under the gun. Thanks to Impalacustom for the June 1938 date of manufacture. I'm guessing that Impalacustom's reference to "rollmark" means something bad; like this is not really engraving? Thank you also Scorch for the way to measure the barrel.

September 23, 2009, 03:12 AM	#6
impalacustom Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 492	It's not bad at all, what roll marking is they have a "roll" with an engraving and they run the part, in this case the receiver under this "roll" and it presses the image into the metal. There were not a lot of truely engraved Model 11's out there. There is one on gunbroker right now though. I have a few pictures of some if you pm me I'll email them for you. 99% of all guns out there are roll marked and not engraved as people like to think. If you look at Colt 1911's you'll notice people refer to them as NRM and ORM, they mean New Roll Mark and Old Roll Mark. So roll marking isn't bad at all it's just a way to mass produce an "engraved" effect on a common gun.