Best CQB Sidearm, 1911? Your thoughts.

[tipoc]

Riverwalker on the 1911...

You might catch the Army carrying them, but I don't know of any Marine that will, would, or has.

Try waving that big 1911 at Haji when you're kickin' doors. Then you'll see what I mean.

You may want to think about that some. I seem to remember a few wars and a number of "police actions", etc. where Marines carried 1911s. One was in Viet Nam. Another a place called Korea, there were a few others as well. I believe they even kicked in some doors.

1911s come in a variety of sizes and flavors as well. The Commander sized guns are quite handy as are the Officers sized pieces. Steel and alloy frames are available, even some polymer. I mention this because you seem to be unaware of it. If the handling characteristics of the GM set you back there are other options.

I admit I'm not as familiar with the conditions you describe as maybe I oughta be. So when I get to...

...the state of mind that replaces fear, in a life or death situation, with the knowledge that you have trained for this, expected it to happen at some time, and are ready, able, and willing to handle it.

You are at a level that you are not allowing fear, doubt, astonishment, or surprise to enter your mind...

You do not think of fear or being killed, you think of what you know will get you through, and that is the front sight, and your training.

So when I get to that place does it hurt and is there a McDonald's there?

How many "wax on, wax offs" do I have to do to qualify. Also how many video games do I gotta play to get there?

I'll apologize for being a wise a-- but I could not help myself and you made it too easy. Remember there is a difference between cover and concealment even in a mall.

Personally I don't know what would be the "best CQB sidearm ever". But the 1911 makes most informed gunnies top 5.
tipoc

[Chindo18Z]

Try waving that big 1911 at Haji when you're kickin' doors.

BTDT. Still doing it.

The Beretta M9 that equips 98% of our forces is an equally "big" pistol.

Beretta M9 (per FM 3-23.35):
41 oz loaded (2.6 lbs)
8.54 in length / 4.92 in barrel
sight radius 6.22 in

M1911A1 (per TM 9-1005-211-34):
46.7 oz loaded (2.9 lb)
8 5/8 (8.625) in length / 5.03 in barrel
sight radius 6.481 in

Here's a comparison photo:

You do not think of fear or being killed, you think of what you know will get you through, and that is the front sight, and your training.

Agree 100%.

[riverwalker76]

I'm done with this topic. Once you start questioning the intelligence of a Marine Captain ... it's gone too far.

You boys go on thinking whatever you want about the 1911. There are reasons why we don't use them. If you ever run into a FORECON Marine or someone who's been through MCMAP ... maybe he'll tell you.

Oh ... and until you've seen as much action as the above said Marine ... stay at home and keep being a FOBBIT in the confines of your secure local.

Fallujah was action .... I see none of the missions being compared to that in today's day and time.

I'm out!

FYI ... if you have time to keep up with posts on the net .... you aren't doing your job!

Makes me wonder if you're not just some FOBBIT who hangs around the watering hole listening to the big boys.

Don't expect me to look in on this post again ... it's a waste of my time.

[44 AMP]

Boy this one turned into a lot of chest thumping and ....well, you get the point.

The tools used by the professionals today ought to be better than the ones used generations ago. After all, we have had decades to study the matter and design and built a better mousetrap, right?

What does surprise me is that today's premier fighting handguns aren't all that much better than a 1911A1.

Once you start questioning the intelligence of a Marine Captain ...

As a former Army soldier, I question the intelligence of all Marines. As I'm sure they did (and do) for all soldiers. Its part of what the service fraternity, and rivalry is about. Deal with it and move on. (and just for the record, I served and trained with Marines, back in my day. I know who and what we were then, and though the scenery has changed, and some of the toys, its still who and what we are today.)

On the other hand, some of the brash statements make me question you personally. Thanks for your opinion. Pride is a fine thing, but arrogance is unbecoming, especially in an officer.

What worked in the past will still work just as well today. Are there more modern designs that could give you an edge, yep. And lots of difference of opinion about which one is "best". But don't come off implying that what stopped the Waffen SS and Viet Cong won't work as well on the folks you are dealing with today. That level of arrogance just belittles your arguments about...well, everything.

Now, I'm a broken down old phart, who can't PT 20klicks before chow and doesn't dry shave with a K Bar. My kids are doing that kind of thing now. But back when I had a reason to depend on a pistol, the 1911A1 never failed me. And I don't think it will now.

Thanks to all for their opinions, and for those currently serving, no matter the branch or location, I will not say thank you. I don't believe its right to say thank you for doing your duty. I will say, I respect you for doing that duty, and I will keep you in my prayers.

[HorseSoldier]

ps: The US Army Delta Force aka; SFOD-1) was disbanded by SECDEF Donald Rumsfeld. The highly elite spec ops unit is now called CAG(combat applications group). The CAG falls under the direct command of the US DoD(Defense Dept).

It was just a name change. When CAG gets overused enough on TV, in movies, in video games, etc., they'll change the name again.

[tipoc]

Riverwalker,

I really don't care of you are a Captain of the Marines or of the Mall Police when you are wrong you are wrong. The more you use your authority (as a former Officer) the less you actually have of it. Trying to pull rank in an internet discussion don't generally work (veiled threats also don't work, cap'n).

It was you who said that you did not know of any marine "who will, would or has" used a 1911. I pointed out that quite a few have used that weapon over the last 90 plus years and were glad to do it.

Relax Cap'n I know you've been wrong before don't let it bend you out of shape this time

tipoc

[Chindo18Z]

riverwalker76: That was quite a tantrum. Do you really think you're the only salty guy on this board? You're not. Lots of us get to forever remember our Dead. Lighten up Francis.

The original question was whether or not the 1911 is a good/best CQB platform. I say it is.

It's still widely used for serious purpose after almost 100 years, is manufactured in ever increasing numbers by ever increasing numbers of makers, and has excelled across every shooting environment (e.g., battlefield, street, range, hunting, and competition). Name another combat pistol with those credentials.

riverwalker76: Come on back to the thread...you know you want to.

[Webleymkv]

On another note. A lot of SOCOM ops are carrying an HK USP45, Springfield XD 45 Tactical, or Beretta M9A1. I have NEVER seen a classic Colt 1911 style sidearm in combat. Put a can on the barrrel of a 1911 and you'd be carrying around enough hardware to beat them to death.

I'll give you a little excercise to try ....

Try flicking your wrist from side to side while holding your 1911! You feel that weight and over travel? That's a NO GO.

It's all about high speed ... low drag

Well, let's do a little comparison shall we.

A standard Beretta 92FS weighs 33.3 oz unloaded while a standard all-steel 1911 (we'll use a S&W 1911 as an example) weighs 39.5 oz unloaded. That's a difference of only 6.2 oz.

http://www.beretta.com/Defence-Pisto...&id=795&foto=1

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y

However, for the sake of fairness, let's compare the loaded weight of the two guns. The standard M855 9mm cartridge weighs 179grn which is approximately 0.41 oz. If we assume that the Beretta is loaded to full capacity (15+1) then the total weight of the ammunition will be approximately 6.56 oz.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_9mm.php

The standard M1911 .45 ACP cartridge, on the other hand, weighs 331grn which is approximately 0.76 oz. Assuming that the 1911 is using 8 round magazines and is fully loaded (8+1) the ammunition will weigh 6.84oz

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_45acp.php

This means that fully loaded, a 1911 will weigh only 6.48oz more than a fully loaded Beretta M9.

Also, when kicking in the doors of "Hajis" or whomever, a heavy pistol that can make a good impact weapon if necessary doesn't seem like such a bad thing. Also, when your heart rate is racing, a lightweight pistol would seem more likely to exacerbate hand shaking than a heavier one. One of the reasons that I prefer a full 5" barrel Government Model over a shorter 4.25" Commander or 3" Officer's Model is that the extra weight up front seems to help the pistol "settle" on target and also makes it balance slightly better.

Also, I am unaware of any U.S. Military Personnel being issued either Springfield Armory XD 45's or HK USP 45's. I do know that the HK Mark 23 SOCOM is used on an extremely limited basis, that all branches have procured the Sig M11 (military version of the P228), and that the U.S. Army did order a fair number of Ruger P95's. Do you happen to have any links detailing the use of the Springfield Armory XD or HK USP by the military? Here are a few regarding the Ruger P95, HK Mark 23, and Sig P228/M11.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n11851451/

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg12-e.htm

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_f...pistol_m11.php

Also, the Marines do indeed still use 1911's although in limited numbers. Specifically, the M-45 MEU(SOC) handgun is the standard issue for the USMC Expeditionary Units' Force Recon Elements.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meu_1911.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

[jay21401]

Tell you what, seeing you are so smart and one of the quotes you posted was mine please let us simpletons in on some data where any modern day CCW holder was gunned down, by all these zombies, because they ran out of ammo.

My post was directed at you, not everyone else here. Stop trying to position yourself as "we" by saying I'm calling everyone here a simpleton. For a guy who boasts that you never need the help of a spare mag, you sure are quick to look for help by trying say you represent a group. I criticized YOUR post not everyone elses. This is the common cowardly tactic on the street with gang members trying to gang up on one person(that's how they try to "win")
This is the exact reason why sometimes 7 rounds is not enough.

[tipoc]

Jay21401,

First off you went and revived a two year old thread to begin to debate with someone something they had said in 2008 (see post #68). Why did you do that?

Now you have waited two months after this thread ended to reply to something somebody else said over two months ago? You did this in a way, a style, as if only a few minutes had passed. Why did you do that? What is the point of it?

tipoc

[nate45]

Originally Posted by riverwalker76

'm done with this topic. Once you start questioning the intelligence of a Marine Captain ... it's gone too far.

You boys go on thinking whatever you want about the 1911. There are reasons why we don't use them. If you ever run into a FORECON Marine or someone who's been through MCMAP ... maybe he'll tell you.

Oh ... and until you've seen as much action as the above said Marine ... stay at home and keep being a FOBBIT in the confines of your secure local.

Fallujah was action .... I see none of the missions being compared to that in today's day and time.

I'm out!

FYI ... if you have time to keep up with posts on the net .... you aren't doing your job!

Makes me wonder if you're not just some FOBBIT who hangs around the watering hole listening to the big boys.

Don't expect me to look in on this post again ... it's a waste of my time.

Oh, yeah?

Well, check back in late Sept, or early Oct 2012 for my timely and witty retort.

[tipoc]

I'm not trying to put you on the spot brother. Sometimes, when a fella is incarcerated, he may not have regular access to a machine for internet things. So a few months or a couple a years may go by between postings. You may have to just pick up where you left off. I understand how it is. I've spent a few looong weekends in county. I know, not the same, but I feel ya! I know the show.

tipoc

[jay21401]

I hear what you are saying about the point of reviving old threads but some threads that are old still have a lot of relevant infomation. Some of the most insightful comments I have read on forums have been in old threads. Like you said, they are new to some people.

[WESHOOT2]

Defensive handguns need sufficient capacity.
Handguns used in an offensive capacity (like a peace officer searching a dark alley) benefit from greater capacity.

I like to wear more than one gun.

[Erik]

"Best CQB Sidearm, 1911? Your thoughts."

"CQB" being synonymous with "shoulder-fired-automatic-primary-weapons," yes. Oddly enough, there are other "best sidearms" in this category. Huh.

[kaylorinhi]

Whatever you are trained with.

My 2cents??

I am really liking the M&P .45 it has the simplicity of a SA but the "Higher" cap and polymer frame. However, I will take whatever won't break, just don't shoot to much NATO sub-gun ammo out of your M9A1 the locking block can't take the abuse, and for the Beretta fans relax it is the truth.