Suppose this incident should occur and what do you do? - Page 2

Rivers · February 9, 2006, 03:18 PM

You aren't a cop or even a rent-a-cop wannabe. What's with all the conversation, barking commands, etc.??? Don't say anything. Don't try to engage in any kind of dialogue. Shoot, and shoot in such a manner that the perpetrator's survival is unlikely.

invention_45 · February 9, 2006, 03:21 PM

Tankist:

solution - move to Florida!

Better gun laws and the value of my house will go up even more !

Tankist · February 9, 2006, 04:13 PM

>>Tankist:

solution - move to Florida!

Better gun laws and the value of my house will go up even more !<<

Would love to, maybe next marriage. (Wife refused to consider moving to "hurricane death alley")

Seriously, there have been a number of cases here where a home owner was treated as a criminal by the police after being forced to defend himself and his family from an intruder. Someone being in your house is not enough justification to use deadly force. There must be an immanent threat of death or serious injury for you to be able to defend your self, even in your own house. Otherwise the #$%^bag who broke into your house will end up owning it. Assuming he survives of course.

riverrat66 · February 9, 2006, 04:33 PM

Quote:

invention_45 sez:
anything you say here might have to be defended as someone else's words, adding cost to your attorney fees.

You're right, sometimes I should just keep my big mouth shut!

Quote:

Tankist sez:
But what about those of us who live in an area where law enforcement officials don't have such great respect for citizens right to own and use firearms in self defense.

That's damn near anywhere in New York State and especially NYC!

Quote:

I happen to live in NYC. The justifications for the use of deadly force are much more complicated in a self defense scenario here. Instead of calling 911 one would have to call their lawyer.

+1 I agree 100%

I live in upstate NY and people in other parts of the country don't understand what it's like to be a gun owner in this state. When you say "Someone being in your house is not enough justification to use deadly force. There must be an immanent threat of death or serious injury for you to be able to defend yourself, even in your own house." that is exactly right. The intruder must have a weapon and show that he is going to use it. Also you must be sure to kill him and be prepared because you will indeed be sued by his survivors. New York State is not a gun owner friendly state!

invention_45 · February 9, 2006, 04:39 PM

Hehheh...

yep, the hurricanes are a bother. But the last one only took 1/3 of my roof off. I didn't really need that part anyway, though.

We have the same imminent death or serious bodily injury requirement here, but are allowed to make the conclusion that somebody who breaks down the door isn't there to deliver you flowers.

One thing that offsets the hurricanes is that I think only the IRS or the bank can get your primary house. Maybe the county tax collector, but I have heard it's a very long process. That was before the new self-defense laws. Now the bad guy can't even try.

Doug.38PR · February 9, 2006, 04:45 PM

Quote:

I live in upstate NY and people in other parts of the country don't understand what it's like to be a gun owner in this state. When you say "Someone being in your house is not enough justification to use deadly force. There must be an immanent threat of death or serious injury for you to be able to defend yourself, even in your own house." that is exactly right. The intruder must have a weapon and show that he is going to use it. Also you must be sure to kill him and be prepared because you will indeed be sued by his survivors. New York State is not a gun owner friendly state!

Grrrrr. Just hearing that kind of nonsense really gets under my skin. (not you personally but such a legal system) That is when I start saying that the courts are even worse than the criminals. And I thought Texas had some rotten laws on the use of deadly force (they turn it into a game where you can't shoot the bad guy because it doesn't give them a fair chance of getting away from robbing you or attacking you instead of using common sense....somebody robs you, you kill them to stop it and get your property back and stop these thugs, they are bad guys...end of story. Bad guys dead and you and yours and those of your community are better off)

But what in the world is going through a jury's mind cases like this where they award relatives of gutter trash your money because you defended your home, life and property? Or worse, what is going through their mind if they convict you and send you to jail for it?

riverrat66 · February 9, 2006, 05:11 PM

When we have representatives like Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton & Senator Charles Schumer who are totally against any kind of gun ownership and millions of "soccer moms" who support them you can see why our rights are disappearing. Plus the fact that NYC used to be the illegal gun capital of the country didn't help with the gun laws of this state. My CCW permit is not valid in New York City limits. If I'm not mistaken, I think one needs a permit to own a shotgun just for hunting purposes! Maybe Tankist could clarify that one.
Let me remind you like I've stated in other threads, everyone of my handguns is registered at the pistol permit office and on the back of my permit. If and when my permit is revoked, for whatever reason they see fit, they will come to my house and confiscate all my handguns and there's not a damn thing I can do about it, after they have a complete list with serial numbers and all. Wow, talk about a police state. These are the freedoms that me and my fellow veterans fought for? Give me a friggin break!

Doug.38PR · February 9, 2006, 05:21 PM

Delte post

NBT · February 9, 2006, 05:23 PM

I'd love to bag me a live Alien, but the men in suits will quarantine me in Area 51, Nevada for exposure. No one will ever hear of me again

Webleymkv · February 10, 2006, 09:05 PM

I suppose that if the intruder in question just stands there and argues with me I wouldn't shoot him. However, he is much more likely to continue his misdeeds if he refuses my demands. If this is the case, I consider that a threat and he's gonna get 125grn of attitude adjustment. As far as legal reprecussions here's my take.

A. It's my word against his and he's the one breaking an entering
B. He'll most likely be dead, in which case it's just my word
C. I live in Indana so I probably would simply have to tell the cops he broke in and that would be the end of my sucspicion.
D. Even if I go to jail over it, at least I'm alive to do so.

TPI98 · February 10, 2006, 11:08 PM

Wow, all these shoot-first, live-on replies... Don't get me wrong, that would be MY first DESIRE too. However:

Although I have never had to engage anyone inside my own house, I HAVE engaged BG's under similar circumstances. The closest to this scenario being that I have conducted meets and greets on my front porch with BG's. The point being, without having actual experience in this area, I'm forced to resort to training and my knowledge of the laws where I live.

Arizona, where I currently live, is a relatively gun-friendly state. The state has statutes that deal, specificaly, with intruders in your home (as does all other states, I would imagine). I remember, fondly, going through various legal courses, taught by the same instructor, concerning intruders in the home; shoot/no shoot. I say fondly, because we laughed, HARD, at the scenario he used to drive all the points home. It was called "The naked man".

Boiled down to the basics, it was: You wake up one night to a noise. You grab your gun and search your house. You find a naked man (naked, for the purpose of knowing FOR CERTAIN that he isn't armed with a weapon) just standing there...

You can probably guess at what some of the responses were.

The point of the scenario, and my initial answer to this thread, is that you can't "just shoot 'em" and still be protected under the law; regardless of how much you want to. If the person/s don't pose an imminent threat, you're just asking for a room at the gray-bar hotel. If that doesn't concern you....blast away; but it DOES concern me and my family as much as the two dudes in my living room does.

The next part: These two bozos aren't cooperating, reasons unknown (speculate all you want, but you never really know why, for sure, while it's happening); but they aren't cooperating. I agree with the earlier mention of using short/concise instructions. Keep in mind though, that if you have them STOPPED where they are, then you've already accomplished your immediate goal. Your next goal is to either get them to leave or, more likely, to get the cops there. If that means that you keep an eye on them as they ramble at the mouth; while at the same time on the phone with 911. Then so be it. BUT, they ARE under your control; even if they are attempting to take that control back, it doesn't matter...you still have the control, and therefore have ZERO justification in shooting them. Same goes if they decide to high-tail it outta there- ZERO justification in shooting them.

Dont confuse obnoxious behavior with behavior that equals lethal force justification.

Would I want to drop 'em where they stand? You bet! My home, my castle.

Would I? This scenario- Nope.

joab · February 10, 2006, 11:22 PM

If you are in my home the instructions will be simple and understandable the repercussions of not following those instruction will be equally simple

"Don't move or I'll shoot"

Tankist · February 15, 2006, 03:02 PM

Riverrat66,

That is correct. You must have a valid NYC permit to purchase and own a rifle/shotgun within NYC limits. Furthermore, we have our own little version of the assault weapon ban. A single offending feature will turn a rifle into into an assault weapon. That could be a flash suppressor, pistol grip, bayo mount, etc. My personal favorite is 5+ round magazine capacity. As you can imagine this severely limits out choices.

hpg · February 15, 2006, 08:15 PM

Inside my house at night, I hope his life insurance is paid in full.

Blackhorse · February 15, 2006, 09:04 PM

In my house in the middle of the night, to me that constitutes a threat to me and my family, first I shoot then I call 911.

Ziostilon · February 16, 2006, 02:07 AM

shoot in the most non-lethal spot and immobilize him. Get cuffs or something to tie him up. Then call the cops. Use a tazer if you have one.
But its a b*tch if you have a big house which takes you a long time to get from one part of the house to another. By the time they get in, you might be still arming your gun.

Or just use those bear mace or pepper spray to keep him off of u. He won't be able to aim properly if he has a gun. Then just shoot him, when he's coughing out the mace. It's pretty hard to still concentrate where to shoot after you get alot of mace sprayed on your face.

Neophyte · February 16, 2006, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziostilon

shoot in the most non-lethal spot and immobilize him.

Erg. No. "Shooting to wound", which is what you're describing, is a bad idea.

If you shoot for a non-lethal spot, you won't immobilize them.

If you shoot to immobilize them, it won't be in a non-lethal spot.

You shoot to stop. But to get the best chance of that (in a reasonable amount of time) means aiming at places that have a high risk of killing your target - central torso, head, etc.

Plus, there are no "non-lethal" places to shoot someone anyway. Gunshot wounds, as illustrated recently by our Vice-President, are extremely dangerous no matter how minor they seem. There's a reason shooting someone with a firearm is considered deadly force - because it can kill, even days later.

Shoot if, and only if, you have legal justification for using deadly force and you are prepared to kill your target. Otherwise, try something else.

joab · February 16, 2006, 08:54 AM

Quote:

if you have a big house which takes you a long time to get from one part of the house to another. By the time they get in, you might be still arming your gun.

A home defense gun should already be "armed" and near by

Using mace especially if dispersed in large volumes like bear spray in an enclosed area is going to get both of you.

Shoot to stop. center mass, there is no such thing as a good wounding shot

High Planes Drifter · February 16, 2006, 09:26 AM

As to the Alliens: I would capture them. Fry a couple, and if they were good, domesticate them and start a breeding program. Im Cajun, I fry anything.

As to the burgulars. If ANYONE sneaks into my house during the un Godly hours aside from my kid; the situation will not get to the point of me shouting commands at him.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 16, 2006, 11:26 AM

Can you use lethal force if the alien just came here to give you a 'friendly' probe? Now, George Bush would defend you against a 'probe' but Hillary would probably not let you use lethal force against a 'probe'.

Doug - have some KY nearby to greet the visitors to Earth.

February 10, 2006, 11:08 PM	#36
TPI98 Junior Member Join Date: January 31, 2006 Location: Northern Arizona Posts: 9	Break-in scenario Wow, all these shoot-first, live-on replies... Don't get me wrong, that would be MY first DESIRE too. However: Although I have never had to engage anyone inside my own house, I HAVE engaged BG's under similar circumstances. The closest to this scenario being that I have conducted meets and greets on my front porch with BG's. The point being, without having actual experience in this area, I'm forced to resort to training and my knowledge of the laws where I live. Arizona, where I currently live, is a relatively gun-friendly state. The state has statutes that deal, specificaly, with intruders in your home (as does all other states, I would imagine). I remember, fondly, going through various legal courses, taught by the same instructor, concerning intruders in the home; shoot/no shoot. I say fondly, because we laughed, HARD, at the scenario he used to drive all the points home. It was called "The naked man". Boiled down to the basics, it was: You wake up one night to a noise. You grab your gun and search your house. You find a naked man (naked, for the purpose of knowing FOR CERTAIN that he isn't armed with a weapon) just standing there... You can probably guess at what some of the responses were. The point of the scenario, and my initial answer to this thread, is that you can't "just shoot 'em" and still be protected under the law; regardless of how much you want to. If the person/s don't pose an imminent threat, you're just asking for a room at the gray-bar hotel. If that doesn't concern you....blast away; but it DOES concern me and my family as much as the two dudes in my living room does. The next part: These two bozos aren't cooperating, reasons unknown (speculate all you want, but you never really know why, for sure, while it's happening); but they aren't cooperating. I agree with the earlier mention of using short/concise instructions. Keep in mind though, that if you have them STOPPED where they are, then you've already accomplished your immediate goal. Your next goal is to either get them to leave or, more likely, to get the cops there. If that means that you keep an eye on them as they ramble at the mouth; while at the same time on the phone with 911. Then so be it. BUT, they ARE under your control; even if they are attempting to take that control back, it doesn't matter...you still have the control, and therefore have ZERO justification in shooting them. Same goes if they decide to high-tail it outta there- ZERO justification in shooting them. Dont confuse obnoxious behavior with behavior that equals lethal force justification. Would I want to drop 'em where they stand? You bet! My home, my castle. Would I? This scenario- Nope. __________________ THUNDER The state which separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools. (Thucydides/ The Peloponnesian Wars)

February 10, 2006, 11:22 PM	#37
joab Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2002 Location: Orl Fla Posts: 3,254	If you are in my home the instructions will be simple and understandable the repercussions of not following those instruction will be equally simple "Don't move or I'll shoot" __________________ Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing

February 15, 2006, 08:15 PM	#39
hpg Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2002 Location: in the Bluegrass State Posts: 1,610	Inside my house at night, I hope his life insurance is paid in full. __________________ NRA member Semper Paratus

February 16, 2006, 11:26 AM	#45
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Can you use lethal force if the alien just came here to give you a 'friendly' probe? Now, George Bush would defend you against a 'probe' but Hillary would probably not let you use lethal force against a 'probe'. Doug - have some KY nearby to greet the visitors to Earth. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

February 9, 2006, 03:18 PM	#26
Rivers Junior member Join Date: November 5, 2005 Posts: 670	You aren't a cop or even a rent-a-cop wannabe. What's with all the conversation, barking commands, etc.??? Don't say anything. Don't try to engage in any kind of dialogue. Shoot, and shoot in such a manner that the perpetrator's survival is unlikely.

February 9, 2006, 03:21 PM	#27
invention_45 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Broward County Posts: 972	Tankist: solution - move to Florida! Better gun laws and the value of my house will go up even more !

February 9, 2006, 04:13 PM	#28
Tankist Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2000 Posts: 222	>>Tankist: solution - move to Florida! Better gun laws and the value of my house will go up even more !<< Would love to, maybe next marriage. (Wife refused to consider moving to "hurricane death alley") Seriously, there have been a number of cases here where a home owner was treated as a criminal by the police after being forced to defend himself and his family from an intruder. Someone being in your house is not enough justification to use deadly force. There must be an immanent threat of death or serious injury for you to be able to defend your self, even in your own house. Otherwise the #$%^bag who broke into your house will end up owning it. Assuming he survives of course.

February 9, 2006, 04:39 PM	#30
invention_45 Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Broward County Posts: 972	Hehheh... yep, the hurricanes are a bother. But the last one only took 1/3 of my roof off. I didn't really need that part anyway, though. We have the same imminent death or serious bodily injury requirement here, but are allowed to make the conclusion that somebody who breaks down the door isn't there to deliver you flowers. One thing that offsets the hurricanes is that I think only the IRS or the bank can get your primary house. Maybe the county tax collector, but I have heard it's a very long process. That was before the new self-defense laws. Now the bad guy can't even try.

February 9, 2006, 05:11 PM	#32
riverrat66 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2004 Location: Western New York Posts: 394	When we have representatives like Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton & Senator Charles Schumer who are totally against any kind of gun ownership and millions of "soccer moms" who support them you can see why our rights are disappearing. Plus the fact that NYC used to be the illegal gun capital of the country didn't help with the gun laws of this state. My CCW permit is not valid in New York City limits. If I'm not mistaken, I think one needs a permit to own a shotgun just for hunting purposes! Maybe Tankist could clarify that one. Let me remind you like I've stated in other threads, everyone of my handguns is registered at the pistol permit office and on the back of my permit. If and when my permit is revoked, for whatever reason they see fit, they will come to my house and confiscate all my handguns and there's not a damn thing I can do about it, after they have a complete list with serial numbers and all. Wow, talk about a police state. These are the freedoms that me and my fellow veterans fought for? Give me a friggin break!

February 9, 2006, 05:21 PM	#33
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Delte post

February 9, 2006, 05:23 PM	#34
NBT Junior member Join Date: January 31, 2006 Location: CA Posts: 134	I'd love to bag me a live Alien, but the men in suits will quarantine me in Area 51, Nevada for exposure. No one will ever hear of me again

February 10, 2006, 09:05 PM	#35
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	I suppose that if the intruder in question just stands there and argues with me I wouldn't shoot him. However, he is much more likely to continue his misdeeds if he refuses my demands. If this is the case, I consider that a threat and he's gonna get 125grn of attitude adjustment. As far as legal reprecussions here's my take. A. It's my word against his and he's the one breaking an entering B. He'll most likely be dead, in which case it's just my word C. I live in Indana so I probably would simply have to tell the cops he broke in and that would be the end of my sucspicion. D. Even if I go to jail over it, at least I'm alive to do so.

February 15, 2006, 03:02 PM	#38
Tankist Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2000 Posts: 222	Riverrat66, That is correct. You must have a valid NYC permit to purchase and own a rifle/shotgun within NYC limits. Furthermore, we have our own little version of the assault weapon ban. A single offending feature will turn a rifle into into an assault weapon. That could be a flash suppressor, pistol grip, bayo mount, etc. My personal favorite is 5+ round magazine capacity. As you can imagine this severely limits out choices.

February 15, 2006, 09:04 PM	#40
Blackhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2002 Location: Idaho Posts: 597	In my house in the middle of the night, to me that constitutes a threat to me and my family, first I shoot then I call 911.

February 16, 2006, 02:07 AM	#41
Ziostilon Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Posts: 22	shoot in the most non-lethal spot and immobilize him. Get cuffs or something to tie him up. Then call the cops. Use a tazer if you have one. But its a b*tch if you have a big house which takes you a long time to get from one part of the house to another. By the time they get in, you might be still arming your gun. Or just use those bear mace or pepper spray to keep him off of u. He won't be able to aim properly if he has a gun. Then just shoot him, when he's coughing out the mace. It's pretty hard to still concentrate where to shoot after you get alot of mace sprayed on your face.

February 16, 2006, 09:26 AM	#44
High Planes Drifter Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2005 Posts: 558	As to the Alliens: I would capture them. Fry a couple, and if they were good, domesticate them and start a breeding program. Im Cajun, I fry anything. As to the burgulars. If ANYONE sneaks into my house during the un Godly hours aside from my kid; the situation will not get to the point of me shouting commands at him.