Want a pump 12, but which one? - Page 2

JWT · March 14, 2013, 06:37 PM

+1 for the Browning BPS

boattale · March 15, 2013, 09:49 PM

You asked for experience. I've owned and used a 12 gauge 870 wingmaster for over 30 years now, upland and waterfowling. With not a single platform related problem ever. I take good care of my guns and it's as nice looking now as it was when I bought it.

I inherited an 870 express magnum model after my best friend died last year. We had a field day with the kids and grandkids not long after. The express would lock up on cheap winchester shells, the wingmaster didn't and never has cared what you feed it. I've since polished the chamber on the express so who knows.

I can and will in good conscience, based 100% on experience with an 870 wingmaster recommend it for any purpose anywhere, any time. Given even minimal care.

smokem · March 20, 2013, 10:21 AM

Your choices are OK, but you have overlooked the "perfect repeater"; a Winchester Model 12! I have several of them; all milled parts; built like a tank, and for self defense, get one made in the '50's that you can slam fire:i.e., hold triger back while jacking the handle. You can spit out a lot of lead thataway!
Look around and you can find them, usually with a polychoke or some other multichoke on it for $300-350. They were and are a great gun!
smokem

rfxcasey · March 20, 2013, 11:23 PM

I just picked up a Winchester SXP defender last month for $350. It's the nicest pump shotgun I've ever held. Smooth, light and tight with a chrome lined open choke barrel. Took it out shooting last weekend and its probably one of the most advance pump shotgun in the world. Rotating bolt, aluminum receiver, pump assist and easy 3 main assembly breakdown. Accommodates 2 3/4 and 3 inch shells. I believe it will work with some 1300 parts but haven't confirmed this. There is also a waterfowl barrel available for it. Minimal recoil and I've heard a lot of service members praise them. Looks mean as heck too. The Turks make some great shotguns so don't believe the detractors. .300 Weatherby Mag, what did you dislike after handling one? Winchester knows how to make shotguns and this is to my knowledge their most advance pump to date. It's all business and I absolutely love it.

Just saw this offer over at Bass Pro Shops. It might be a viable option as well.
http://www.basspro.com/Mossberg-FLEX...1301220631389/

elund · March 21, 2013, 05:31 AM

If it matters, the only one discussed here made in America is the 870. While Mossberg says they are "American Made," 90% of the work is done in Mexico and assembled right across the border in Texas. Some people don't mind that, which is fine. But just in case it does . . .

.300 Weatherby Mag · March 21, 2013, 10:02 AM

Quote:

If it matters, the only one discussed here made in America is the 870. While Mossberg says they are "American Made," 90% of the work is done in Mexico and assembled right across the border in Texas. Some people don't mind that, which is fine. But just in case it does .

That only applies to the Maverick 88??

elund · March 22, 2013, 05:15 AM

I wish that were true, 300 Weatherby. It was at one time. But all Mossberg shotguns are made in Mexico and assembled in Texas. Check out the latest ATF data showing 2011 stats.

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/downlo...ort-report.pdf

Maverick Arms assembled 423,570 shotguns in Eagle Pass, Texas in 2011 and zero in CT. I know they make a lot of 88s but not that many. Maverick is Mossberg. Their rifles are made there as well. Rimfire in Brazil. They only push paper in the United States. Sad but true.

LSnSC · March 22, 2013, 06:57 AM

Ive always been a Wingmaster fan, but I bought a Benelli Nova to use for 3 gun, and they have grown on me. They are fugly, but tough as nails, and pretty much weatherproof.

.300 Weatherby Mag · March 22, 2013, 08:57 AM

Quote:

I wish that were true, 300 Weatherby. It was at one time. But all Mossberg shotguns are made in Mexico and assembled in Texas. Check out the latest ATF data showing 2011 stats.

http://www.atf.gov/statistics/downlo...ort-report.pdf

Maverick Arms assembled 423,570 shotguns in Eagle Pass, Texas in 2011 and zero in CT. I know they make a lot of 88s but not that many. Maverick is Mossberg. Their rifles are made there as well. Rimfire in Brazil. They only push paper in the United States. Sad but true.

I don't like those stats.. But I don't buy from Mossberg, I already have one 500 field and one is enough...

What concerns more than anything is the fact that I have no choice other than to buy an imported pumped, in my case a Browning BPS.. I bought a new Wingmaster 12 gauge and it was problem ridden from day one... The only viable choice for a new domestic made pump for me is a new production Ithaca... If only my darn brother would sell the 1962 vintage 870 I had back to me.......

BigD_in_FL · March 22, 2013, 08:58 AM

Mavericks are made in TX from some Mexico-sourced parts; however MOSSBERGs are made in New Haven CT

CaptainChaos · March 22, 2013, 11:34 AM

Quote:

The only viable choice for a new domestic made pump for me is a new production Ithaca...

I was *wondering* when someone would mention the M37. How come these aren't more popular in the States? Is it merely the *price*?

And if so, I was under the impression that you could just waltz into a pawn shop and buy a second-hand shotgun for peanuts(ish). I don't understand why Americans would buy a new foreign shotgun over an old American one. (Benellis excepted, perhaps.)

I must be missing something, here...

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. Can anyone tell me why I don't see a "reply with quote" button on TFL posts?

BigD_in_FL · March 22, 2013, 01:54 PM

Quote:

P.S. Can anyone tell me why I don't see a "reply with quote" button on TFL posts?

Just grab the part you want, go to reply page, use the quote icon and you're off to the races

CaptainChaos · March 22, 2013, 02:29 PM

BigDinFL,

It's hard enough using a 'Droid tablet to post responses without having to jump through *more* hoops...

I asked the question merely because I thought that the forum's software had a bug that didn't allow me to "see" a reply-with-quote button that pretty much all other forums have.

More importantly, what d'you think about my question: why *do* Yanks buy new foreign instead of second-hand American? I have a number of old(ish) American pump-action shotguns - including three M37s - and I have to say that I *prefer* old guns.

Regards,

Mark.

Scrumbag · March 22, 2013, 03:08 PM

I'd go for SX3 out of those you'd listed if you don't want the Benelli or the BPS.

Whatever you choose, enjoy your shooting.

ATB,

Scrummy

Doyle · March 22, 2013, 03:09 PM

Quote:

I'd go for SX3 out of those you'd listed if you don't want the Benelli or the BPS.

I think you mean SXP. The SX3 is an auto.

BigD_in_FL · March 22, 2013, 06:31 PM

Quote:

More importantly, what d'you think about my question: why *do* Yanks buy new foreign instead of second-hand American? I have a number of old(ish) American pump-action shotguns - including three M37s - and I have to say that I *prefer* old guns.

You'll find most folks here are driven first and foremost by price and only price - everything else seems to come second. I prefer quality over quantity and would rather have a few guns of exceptional quality than a safe of mediocre crap - but that is JMO....

Others have a differing view

pmeisel · March 23, 2013, 09:26 AM

I've used most of 'em and to me it comes down to preference -- where you like the safety, how it feels to you, etc....

I keep going back to the Mossberg 500. But I really like my pal's BPS too, and the 870 and the Ithaca are nice too. You can't really go wrong. Just take the time to handle the one you are going to buy.

Ricklin · March 24, 2013, 01:14 PM

There are 1000's of Winchester model 12's languishing on gun store shelves. Other than collectible guns, field models can be had for less than 300.00

If it has a Dial a Duck on it they go for 250.00 or less. Just the solid block of steel billet that the Model 12's receiver is milled from would cost hundreds today.

Want interchangeable chokes...the aforementioned Dial A Duck does the trick, and your shotgun will cost you less.

You won't find a better built pump, parts are available......after all Winchester made over two million of them.

weaselfire · March 24, 2013, 07:03 PM

For what it's worth, the Maverick 88 is a $200 steal at WalMart, and accepts all Mossberg 500 accessories, barrels and stocks except for those involving the trigger group. Very popular, cheap but reliable, shotgun.

More important than make and model is how they fit you and work for you in their intended use. Look at as many as you can, decide what features you need/want and then start looking at specific models and manufacturers. If you can, rent or borrow some to test.

Jeff

BoogieMan · March 26, 2013, 11:24 AM

I own both a 870 (wingmaster) and a BPS (synthetic marsh grass). I love my 870 and cant find a bad thing to say about it. But the BPS is better. Your a lefty and the BPS ejects from the bottom. BPS is a little heavy and its a thumper with heavy loads. But any pump is going to recoil heavy.

elund · March 27, 2013, 08:43 AM

"You'll find most folks here are driven first and foremost by price and only price - everything else seems to come second. I prefer quality over quantity and would rather have a few guns of exceptional quality than a safe of mediocre crap - but that is JMO....

Others have a differing view "

*************
BigDinFL:

You are absolutely right! Cost over quality is a huge problem. People compain about the finish on the Remington 870 Express. But to compete with low cost imports, I'm sure they felt they had to produce something less expensively. Now that Mossberg is "sourcing some parts" in Mexico, it puts even more pressure on domestic company(ies) to reduce price. The only way to compete at that level. As long as Americans flock to cheaply made guns (most imported) to save $50, this will happen. Not only in shotguns but rifles too.

elund · March 27, 2013, 08:54 AM

"Mavericks are made in TX from some Mexico-sourced parts; however MOSSBERGs are made in New Haven CT"

BigDinFL:

This is NOT true. Mavericks are made in Mexico and assembled in Texas. But so are all of the Mossbergs, but under the Maverick name. Look at the latest ATF data showing 2011 production. The link is still floating around this thread.

Mossberg made ZERO shotguns in Connecticut in 2011. They assembled 423,570 shotguns in Texas in 2011.

I promise, I'm not trying to be combative. But I am all about American companies making their products in America. I get foreign companies like Benelli, Beretta, etc selling here. It's when American companies ditch their own workers to make them cheap out of the country and then come back and sell them to us. And we flock to them to save literally $50. Its disturbing.

You are absolutely right though. There are few options. Remington still does make great products. But the ones people have issues with, are the ones they make to compete with guns made in Mexico.

rfxcasey · March 27, 2013, 07:48 PM

I completely understand the outsourcing argument and agree for the most part however when I was looking at shotguns I found what I wanted in the Turkish Winchester. I was willing to pay a $100 extra or so but I just really, really liked the SXP so that is what I bought. It just so happened to be on sale which was a bonus but I was going to buy it regardless of the price. Well, within reason anyways. Let my gunsmith/marine buddy shoot it and he really liked it too. "That's a REALLY nice shotgun!" It's really a work of art, absolutely beautiful inside and out. The fit, finish and quality is excellent. The fact that it's Turkish and under $400 is a bit hard to wrap your head around. Would have paid a bit more if made in the US but wouldn't change a thing about the shotgun itself except maybe if it took more shells in the tube. Somewhere around 50 would be good.

Oh and as far as speed goes, I'm no competitive shooter but I rattled off about 6 shots in about 4 seconds the other day so yeah, I'd say its pretty fast.

Anyways, LET US KNOW WHICH SHOTGUN YOU DECIDE ON!!!!!!

SmokeyVol · March 30, 2013, 03:55 PM

Pre-1964 Winchester Model 12s are great. I own two of them, both from the mid 1950s plus a recent 870 Wngmaster. I still pfer the Model 12s because they are what I grew up shooting and they ae built like tanks. As a left handed shooter, a used Model 12 may not work as I am not aware they ever made a left handed model and spitting hulls in you face is just not fun. I am right handed but left eyed and never mastered the mechanics of left handed shooting. My dad had an Ithaca 37 that had bottom dischrge good for left handers and keeping rain out of the receiver. Try several models from others before you buy and get somthing that fits well and is reliable.

BigD_in_FL · March 30, 2013, 06:55 PM

Quote:

There are 1000's of Winchester model 12's languishing on gun store shelves. Other than collectible guns, field models can be had for less than 300.00

Not around here - $400 and up for beaters - but these are pawn shops

Quote:

Look at the latest ATF data showing 2011 production. The link is still floating around this thread.

I'd like to see that data - post a link if you can

Quote:

Mossberg made ZERO shotguns in Connecticut in 2011. They assembled 423,570 shotguns in Texas in 2011.

It was my understanding that the barrels for Mavericks were made in Mexico and those guns were assembled in Eagle's Pass, TX but that the others (not imported from Turkey) were made in CT

I have had one for over 20 years and it was made in North Haven.
If it says "Made in the USA", or similar, then it is made here - maybe from imported parts, but no different than US cars - Chryslers make more in Mexico and Canada, where the Jap ones are mostly made here.

As previously mentioned, when price is the only consideration, and folks buy the Chinese/Russian/Turkish/Brazilian cheap imports, our folks will respond with the likes of the Express and Maverick

March 15, 2013, 09:49 PM	#27
boattale Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2012 Posts: 118	You asked for experience. I've owned and used a 12 gauge 870 wingmaster for over 30 years now, upland and waterfowling. With not a single platform related problem ever. I take good care of my guns and it's as nice looking now as it was when I bought it. I inherited an 870 express magnum model after my best friend died last year. We had a field day with the kids and grandkids not long after. The express would lock up on cheap winchester shells, the wingmaster didn't and never has cared what you feed it. I've since polished the chamber on the express so who knows. I can and will in good conscience, based 100% on experience with an 870 wingmaster recommend it for any purpose anywhere, any time. Given even minimal care. __________________ Its all downhill from here. Except the parts that are uphill.

March 20, 2013, 10:21 AM	#28
smokem Junior Member Join Date: April 19, 2008 Posts: 7	Best Pump Shotgun? Your choices are OK, but you have overlooked the "perfect repeater"; a Winchester Model 12! I have several of them; all milled parts; built like a tank, and for self defense, get one made in the '50's that you can slam fire:i.e., hold triger back while jacking the handle. You can spit out a lot of lead thataway! Look around and you can find them, usually with a polychoke or some other multichoke on it for $300-350. They were and are a great gun! smokem

March 20, 2013, 11:23 PM	#29
rfxcasey Member Join Date: February 20, 2013 Posts: 77	I just picked up a Winchester SXP defender last month for $350. It's the nicest pump shotgun I've ever held. Smooth, light and tight with a chrome lined open choke barrel. Took it out shooting last weekend and its probably one of the most advance pump shotgun in the world. Rotating bolt, aluminum receiver, pump assist and easy 3 main assembly breakdown. Accommodates 2 3/4 and 3 inch shells. I believe it will work with some 1300 parts but haven't confirmed this. There is also a waterfowl barrel available for it. Minimal recoil and I've heard a lot of service members praise them. Looks mean as heck too. The Turks make some great shotguns so don't believe the detractors. .300 Weatherby Mag, what did you dislike after handling one? Winchester knows how to make shotguns and this is to my knowledge their most advance pump to date. It's all business and I absolutely love it. Just saw this offer over at Bass Pro Shops. It might be a viable option as well. http://www.basspro.com/Mossberg-FLEX...1301220631389/ Last edited by rfxcasey; March 21, 2013 at 01:11 AM.

March 23, 2013, 09:26 AM	#42
pmeisel Senior Member Join Date: December 30, 2008 Location: WV Posts: 271	I've used most of 'em and to me it comes down to preference -- where you like the safety, how it feels to you, etc.... I keep going back to the Mossberg 500. But I really like my pal's BPS too, and the 870 and the Ithaca are nice too. You can't really go wrong. Just take the time to handle the one you are going to buy. __________________ Paul

March 24, 2013, 01:14 PM	#43
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	The perfect repeater There are 1000's of Winchester model 12's languishing on gun store shelves. Other than collectible guns, field models can be had for less than 300.00 If it has a Dial a Duck on it they go for 250.00 or less. Just the solid block of steel billet that the Model 12's receiver is milled from would cost hundreds today. Want interchangeable chokes...the aforementioned Dial A Duck does the trick, and your shotgun will cost you less. You won't find a better built pump, parts are available......after all Winchester made over two million of them. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

March 14, 2013, 06:37 PM	#26
JWT Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 3,888	+1 for the Browning BPS

March 21, 2013, 05:31 AM	#30
elund Junior Member Join Date: March 20, 2013 Posts: 6	If it matters, the only one discussed here made in America is the 870. While Mossberg says they are "American Made," 90% of the work is done in Mexico and assembled right across the border in Texas. Some people don't mind that, which is fine. But just in case it does . . .

March 22, 2013, 05:15 AM	#32
elund Junior Member Join Date: March 20, 2013 Posts: 6	I wish that were true, 300 Weatherby. It was at one time. But all Mossberg shotguns are made in Mexico and assembled in Texas. Check out the latest ATF data showing 2011 stats. http://www.atf.gov/statistics/downlo...ort-report.pdf Maverick Arms assembled 423,570 shotguns in Eagle Pass, Texas in 2011 and zero in CT. I know they make a lot of 88s but not that many. Maverick is Mossberg. Their rifles are made there as well. Rimfire in Brazil. They only push paper in the United States. Sad but true.

March 22, 2013, 06:57 AM	#33
LSnSC Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2010 Posts: 514	Ive always been a Wingmaster fan, but I bought a Benelli Nova to use for 3 gun, and they have grown on me. They are fugly, but tough as nails, and pretty much weatherproof.

March 22, 2013, 08:58 AM	#35
BigD_in_FL Junior member Join Date: December 20, 2012 Location: The "Gunshine State" Posts: 1,981	Mavericks are made in TX from some Mexico-sourced parts; however MOSSBERGs are made in New Haven CT

March 22, 2013, 02:29 PM	#38
CaptainChaos Member Join Date: November 8, 2011 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 49	BigDinFL, It's hard enough using a 'Droid tablet to post responses without having to jump through more hoops... I asked the question merely because I thought that the forum's software had a bug that didn't allow me to "see" a reply-with-quote button that pretty much all other forums have. More importantly, what d'you think about my question: why do Yanks buy new foreign instead of second-hand American? I have a number of old(ish) American pump-action shotguns - including three M37s - and I have to say that I prefer old guns. Regards, Mark.

March 22, 2013, 03:08 PM	#39
Scrumbag Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2012 Posts: 173	I'd go for SX3 out of those you'd listed if you don't want the Benelli or the BPS. Whatever you choose, enjoy your shooting. ATB, Scrummy

March 24, 2013, 07:03 PM	#44
weaselfire Member Join Date: January 12, 2013 Posts: 88	For what it's worth, the Maverick 88 is a $200 steal at WalMart, and accepts all Mossberg 500 accessories, barrels and stocks except for those involving the trigger group. Very popular, cheap but reliable, shotgun. More important than make and model is how they fit you and work for you in their intended use. Look at as many as you can, decide what features you need/want and then start looking at specific models and manufacturers. If you can, rent or borrow some to test. Jeff

March 26, 2013, 11:24 AM	#45
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	I own both a 870 (wingmaster) and a BPS (synthetic marsh grass). I love my 870 and cant find a bad thing to say about it. But the BPS is better. Your a lefty and the BPS ejects from the bottom. BPS is a little heavy and its a thumper with heavy loads. But any pump is going to recoil heavy. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

March 27, 2013, 08:43 AM	#46
elund Junior Member Join Date: March 20, 2013 Posts: 6	"You'll find most folks here are driven first and foremost by price and only price - everything else seems to come second. I prefer quality over quantity and would rather have a few guns of exceptional quality than a safe of mediocre crap - but that is JMO.... Others have a differing view " ************* BigDinFL: You are absolutely right! Cost over quality is a huge problem. People compain about the finish on the Remington 870 Express. But to compete with low cost imports, I'm sure they felt they had to produce something less expensively. Now that Mossberg is "sourcing some parts" in Mexico, it puts even more pressure on domestic company(ies) to reduce price. The only way to compete at that level. As long as Americans flock to cheaply made guns (most imported) to save $50, this will happen. Not only in shotguns but rifles too.

March 27, 2013, 08:54 AM	#47
elund Junior Member Join Date: March 20, 2013 Posts: 6	"Mavericks are made in TX from some Mexico-sourced parts; however MOSSBERGs are made in New Haven CT" BigDinFL: This is NOT true. Mavericks are made in Mexico and assembled in Texas. But so are all of the Mossbergs, but under the Maverick name. Look at the latest ATF data showing 2011 production. The link is still floating around this thread. Mossberg made ZERO shotguns in Connecticut in 2011. They assembled 423,570 shotguns in Texas in 2011. I promise, I'm not trying to be combative. But I am all about American companies making their products in America. I get foreign companies like Benelli, Beretta, etc selling here. It's when American companies ditch their own workers to make them cheap out of the country and then come back and sell them to us. And we flock to them to save literally $50. Its disturbing. You are absolutely right though. There are few options. Remington still does make great products. But the ones people have issues with, are the ones they make to compete with guns made in Mexico.

March 27, 2013, 07:48 PM	#48
rfxcasey Member Join Date: February 20, 2013 Posts: 77	I completely understand the outsourcing argument and agree for the most part however when I was looking at shotguns I found what I wanted in the Turkish Winchester. I was willing to pay a $100 extra or so but I just really, really liked the SXP so that is what I bought. It just so happened to be on sale which was a bonus but I was going to buy it regardless of the price. Well, within reason anyways. Let my gunsmith/marine buddy shoot it and he really liked it too. "That's a REALLY nice shotgun!" It's really a work of art, absolutely beautiful inside and out. The fit, finish and quality is excellent. The fact that it's Turkish and under $400 is a bit hard to wrap your head around. Would have paid a bit more if made in the US but wouldn't change a thing about the shotgun itself except maybe if it took more shells in the tube. Somewhere around 50 would be good. Oh and as far as speed goes, I'm no competitive shooter but I rattled off about 6 shots in about 4 seconds the other day so yeah, I'd say its pretty fast. Anyways, LET US KNOW WHICH SHOTGUN YOU DECIDE ON!!!!!! Last edited by rfxcasey; March 30, 2013 at 06:31 AM.

March 30, 2013, 03:55 PM	#49
SmokeyVol Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 137	Pre-1964 Winchester Model 12s are great. I own two of them, both from the mid 1950s plus a recent 870 Wngmaster. I still pfer the Model 12s because they are what I grew up shooting and they ae built like tanks. As a left handed shooter, a used Model 12 may not work as I am not aware they ever made a left handed model and spitting hulls in you face is just not fun. I am right handed but left eyed and never mastered the mechanics of left handed shooting. My dad had an Ithaca 37 that had bottom dischrge good for left handers and keeping rain out of the receiver. Try several models from others before you buy and get somthing that fits well and is reliable.