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Old December 17, 2004, 10:46 PM   #1
bill k
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I guess I need to switch to factory ammo!

I've been shooting for more years than I can remember, reloading for quite a few. I go to the range twice a week, shoot 30 or forty rounds per trip. But what am I doing wrong?
I hear guys talking about their quarter inch groups at 100 yards, half inch groups at 200 yards, dropping a buck at 600 yards, (shooting downhill, running away, in a 30 MPH crosswind) and all this, using factory ammo. I admit it, I can't. Does anyone have the same problem?
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Old December 18, 2004, 05:01 PM   #2
caz223
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I'm happy with 1/4"-1/2" groups at 100 meters with a .223 rem off a rest.
Handloads custom loaded to almost explode on impact.
They just shred anything covered with fur or feathers.
It's a varmint gun, I don't need accuracy better than that, and where I live, the shots over 200 yards just don't safely present themselves.
The factory ammo is better than it used to be, no doubt, and optics are getting better/cheaper, but most guns aren't capable of that kind of accuracy, much less the meat-bag behind the trigger.
Besides, are you capable of shooting under 1 inch at 200 yards with no rest under less than optimal conditions in the field with wind/rain/tall grass, etc?
Consistantly? Every time?
I'm not, and I'll admit it to anyone.
Ahh, the tales back at the clubhouse, why do people even bother?
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Old December 18, 2004, 05:27 PM   #3
larryf1952
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Many people don't have any problem at all, telling tall tales within earshot of others.

Like caz said, shooting from a nice, comfy bag rest on a perfect, windless day, with fabulous eyesight and steel reflexes, and getting 1/4" groups that one can boast about over coffee, is a far cry from sitting in a stand, tired, cramped, sleepy eyed, with a cold wind blowing down one's neck, and your target moving through obstacles on the other side of you.

Maybe, there are improvements that you could make, either in your ammo or your technique, but I wouldn't feel too inadequate...
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Old December 18, 2004, 07:53 PM   #4
Arc Angel
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Bill, your candor and frustration are obvious! I'll agree that there are few things worse in life than having to share a bench with some smartass with a bolt action, bull barrel rifle with a 25x, 'astronomy scope' on top, and a nice 50 round block of meticulously crafted ammo - the formula for which he's been working on for years!

I hate these guys! The last time this happened to me I could have shot the, 'living bejesus' out of the Smart Alec who was putting everything into the same hole at 100 yards - Except my light barreled sporter, and 4x scope simply wouldn't permit it. I was forced to settle for better than quarter-sized groups even though the both of us realized that I was the better marksman.

It ain't just the ammunition, my friend; some, 'shooting platforms' are simply better than others. An average shot with an excellent (probably glass-bedded) heavy rifle, high magnification scope, and mechanical rest will outshoot an expert marksman using a sporting rifle – every time!

Frankly, I’ve always believed that I can build better bullets on my Rockchucker press than any manufacturer could afford to take the time to make. Don’t forget that the Army Marksmanship Team uses all reloads – exclusively! The only extraordinary steps they add to the usual reloading process is to turn the necks for concentricity, and weigh out each bullet and powder charge.

If you want tighter groups get a better rifle; some of today's Savage tactical rifles are vastly improved bolt actions over what they used to be. Put a decent high power scope on one, use a set of sandbags, and spend a week or two working (or reading) up some respectable (HPBT) target loads. You'll get those one hole groups you're looking for.

PS: (Here’s a nice 22-250 tack driver.)

http://www.savagearms.com/12Varminter.htm

And, one more in either 25 or 30-06,

http://www.savagearms.com/112bvss.htm


(No I don’t own stock in Savage/Stevens. My own preferences run to Kimber and Thompson Center; but the Savage line has been coming on strong lately and is nicely affordable.)
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Old December 18, 2004, 09:28 PM   #5
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Never saw the greatness in shooting small goups, why buy a 12" target when your only gonna use a little bit in the middle. I get my moneys worth and land 'em all over the paper!

(Truthfully, I never compare my groups to anyone elses, unless they are shooting my gun)
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Old December 18, 2004, 09:30 PM   #6
bill k
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Excellent answer, "When there's lead in the air, there's hope".
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Old December 18, 2004, 11:43 PM   #7
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bill k, it isn't your reloads. You just don't know how to tell the truth where you come out ahead!

I don't reload because of what I see being done by reloaders. I must be a jinx. Reloaders with consistently perfect strings of reloads, great groups, and 100% reliability goes to hell when I shoot next to those guys and the quite often seem quite perplexed, as if it has never happened before. Group sizes greater than whatever they have claimed previously is blamed on the weather, scope, powder, powder scale, new type of bullet, new press, etc.

Failures to function property get blamed on recycle brass, bullets, dies (usually something new), new primers, old primers, etc.

What I really find funny to watch in when the groups are not as tight as they think it should be, so they spend time tracking down the brass from the last few rounds fired, then examining the brass to see if the brass will give them any insight into why their groups are off. Once when I asked, I was told it was to check for over pressure via the primer bulges.

Reloading must be a passion as those guys often spend more time trying to figure out their reloads than they do trying to figure out how to shoot better. As near as I can tell, a crappy group is never the shooter, but the reloads in some fashion, sometimes the weather conditions.

With that said, guys shooting factory ammo will tend to blame the ammo (bad batch), weather, barrel fouling, or some work they have recently done on the gun so as to account for why they aren't shooting 1/2" groups at 100 yards.

As for me, I suck. I hope to be good enough some day to blame less than adequate groups on some miniscule change in reloading, a primer, or whatever. I don't yet shoot to capability of the firearm or factory ammo and like Doerdie, I like to use all the paper.
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Old December 19, 2004, 09:01 AM   #8
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Double Naught Spy, guys like you are called, 'Coolers'. By any chance would you be free to travel out to Camp Perry with me next year, and stand at the opposite end of the line from where I'm shooting?
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Old December 19, 2004, 11:44 AM   #9
Powderman
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My friend, welcome to the wonderful world of reloading.

There is NOTHING wrong with your reloads, or your rifle. Loading rifle ammunition is not a sport for the faint hearted. It can take literally years to come across the perfect combination of case, primer, powder, bullet, and OAL to make the rifle hum.

So, how do you make the rifle shoot bugholes?

First, make sure that it is up to the task.

All of these methods are used on rifles for accuracy--free-floating, pillar bedding, glass bedding, blueprinting the action, re-crowning, truing the bolt (included in blueprinting), sleeving the action or barrel-bedding/free-floating the action. You pick what you want done.

Of course, check the barrel first. Usually, the replacement of the barrel with a custom unit can help.

Do you have a rough, nasty trigger pull? Have it tuned to a good crisp, light pull that you can use safely. A hunting rifle should usually go no lower than 3 pounds. A bench rifle can have a pull measured in ounces.

Now, check your optics. If you are trying to shoot 1/4 MOA groups at 100 yards with a K4 Weaver, rethink your choices for optics. I recommend a good variable scope; 4-14x for shooting to 200 yards, 6 or 6.5 to 24x for medium ranges, and 8-32x for beyond. And, look at scope quality. It makes no sense to get a $1000 rifle and spend $50 for a scope. There are some notable exceptions--but not many.

Now, look at your ammunition. There are many variables, but here are a few that might help:

1. How are your cases? Make sure that they are in the same lot, of the same make, and are of the same type. Mixing nickel and brass doesn't bode well for accuracy. Make sure that they are of the same length; trim if necessary. Consider stuff like neck turning and inside reaming.

2. What powder are you using? As a rule of thumb, use a powder that fills the case to the base of the seated round, even slightly compressed if needed. How are you loading the cases? If you're using a measure, ball-type powder is the way to go. For other stuff, set your measure to throw a charge slightly below the desired weight, then hand trickle the rest in. For best results, hand-weigh each charge.

3. Consider the primers, too. Switching primers can make a world of difference.

4. Remember, too, that it is the rare rifle that shoots well at the maximum load. Besides, why pound yourself into oblivion?

5. Where are your bullets seated? Do you know your chamber and throat measurements? Usually, best accuracy is found when the bullet is seated to a depth .03 to .05 off the lands. But, consider that some calibers and rifles can be oddballs.

The .300 Winchester Magnum has a standard max OAL of 3.386 inches; that is so it will fit into the magazine of the rifle. But, for some reason, most rifles in this caliber have VERY long throats. My rifle--a Winchester Laredo--shot 4-5" groups at 100 yards with this cartridge OAL.

Then, I found the sweet spot--the 175 grain Sierra MatchKing, seated to an OAL of 3.510 inches, on 71.0 of IMR 4831, with Federal Standard primers. Last time I had it out, I shot a .350 group, at 100 yards with 3 rounds.

6. As far as bullets are concerned, rifles are picky. The "accuracy" bullets might not cut it for your rifle, then again they might.

My Garand shoots OK--but, load it up with Winchester flat based 150 grain spire points, and it will hold under an inch all day long.

Friend, there is much experimentation awaiting--and the best part is, you will have immense fun working up a good load, and plenty of satisfaction when it all comes together. Good luck, and good shooting!
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Old January 6, 2005, 04:31 PM   #10
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Well Bill, sounds like you got the bug, since I hear frustration setting in!!! I have to agree with Powderman, there IS a lot too this. However, there's two immediate factors he mentions that will improve your results right NOW!

One - make sure that barrel is free floating. I assume you have a factory rifle right "out of the box". In my experience, a lot of those rifles have poorly inlet stocks, and there's a pressure point somewhere on the barrel.

Two - get that trigger worked on!!!! Most of the factory triggers are over 6 pounds of pull. NO ONE can shoot a great grroup consistently with that kind of pull. Get a competent gunsmith to set it at three pounds, then shoot your group and see what kind of results you get. I'll bet they improve enough to give you some hope for that sub-MOA group!!!!
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Old January 6, 2005, 09:18 PM   #11
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Powderman, in the mid 1980s, I read a book that influenced me greatly on my perspectives of gainful employment. The book was called, "What Color is Your Parachute?" and it was revised yearly for many years and maybe still is. Basically, the guy provided a road map of tasks that needed to be undertaken before one gives up on employment in their chosen area and the road map stipulated doing X things thoroughly and accurately. It is not the fault of the employer, market, economy, etc. if you show up for a job interview smelling like a dead cow, or if you don't have the credentials for the job, etc. Everything is up to you, the individual to make it happen.

Your little treatise on proper shooting reminded me a lot of the book that I read. Very nicely done.

Arc Angel, my ability to shoot is classified as a "cooler"? That sounds a whole lot better than the words I usually use to describe my shooting.

When do we leave for Camp Perry? I will gladly be at the end of the line from you when I shoot, if you let me go. Hell, load up up with a batch of blanks and I will stay happy all day long trying to hit the target! I am easily amused that way.
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Old January 6, 2005, 11:10 PM   #12
bill k
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Do I have the bug? Hell yes, and every trip to the range gets me more pissed until today. It was the 10 year old kid with his grandfather next to me that made me smile. He made the comment, "was he really aiming for that?" It wasn't a great shot, but my first shot of the day at 350 yards. A bowling pin everyone was shooting at and missing.

Hey what the heck, have fun and I did. When I retrieved my 100 yard target later, everything was in the red zone. Not a quarter inch group but well under a half. I think I might have found a load.

My 300 on the otherhand still sucks.
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Old January 7, 2005, 01:47 AM   #13
Leftoverdj
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Bill, I suspect your accuracy problem is in your keyboard. With a nice new keyboard, you can also shoot groups in the .2s with a Walmart Remchester.
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Old January 7, 2005, 02:10 AM   #14
Doug242ti
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Quote:
Bill, I suspect your accuracy problem is in your keyboard. With a nice new keyboard, you can also shoot groups in the .2s with a Walmart Remchester.
love it LOL.

Perhaps a new park bench to encourage more bench racing would help to... its all about your stance you know.
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Old January 9, 2005, 11:01 PM   #15
db4
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Attacking the other end of the problem

Some years ago I was a member of a club in Canada that had a mostly undeveloped property in a river valley, only 200 yards of usable range. A local road contractor wanted to haul gravel from it, so we told him to go for it, and this it what we want it to look like when you're done... 12 foot berms, 3 ranges @ 50 yards, 3 @ 100, and 1 @ 500 yards. Put up target boards every 100 yards on the big range, and within a month or two we quit hearing about the 5, 6, 7, 8 hundred yard shots on moose that had been so common before. Funny how that worked.
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