Disappointed in CCW Course

[YounGun24]

I finally got to take my CCW course a few weekends ago (my wife finally gave in, for those who have read my previous posts), an I have to say – I was disappointed in the quality/content of the course. I had envisioned this CCW expert (LEO or other) discussing situations and laws that CCW permit holders needed to know about. I was looking forward to asking questions and really getting some good answers.

I paid $120 for four hours of the following:
1. “This is a gun. Here’s the hammer. Here’s the trigger.”
2. “This is another gun. Here’s the hammer. Here’s the trigger.”
3. “This is yet another gun. This one doesn’t have a hammer. Here’s the trigger.”
4. “I don’t recommend carrying anything smaller than a 9mm.”
5. “Let’s fill out the paperwork.”

The instructor was apparently a nationally recognized competition shooter. The instructor gave a five minute Q&A period; one question I unfortunately committed to memory:

(Old man and instructor)
Q: “Can we legally show anyone our weapon while we’re carrying?”
A: *scoffing* “Well, when you show someone your gun, it's called ‘banishing’ or something like that, and you’re not supposed to do it.”

I can only assume the instuctor meant “Brandishing” which is a legal term, and something that, as a certified CCW instructor, this person would know about. After this, I really felt like I wasn’t getting my money’s worth.

When we left the gun store where the classroom portion was held, we drove down the road a few miles to a range owned by the same people. I’m not picky of ranges, but for you to imagine the scene: It was a field with hay bails at the end, with some 2x4’s constructed to hold the targets. There were no partitions between shooters. They went over some range rules, like “Don’t point your gun at your neighbor.”, etc. Then we went down to demonstrate our competency at shooting a target from point blank, three feet, and six feet. The exercise was to shoot six rounds, reload and shot six rounds again, no matter the gun. The idea was to test your reload ability in a hurry, not just your shooting ability. There were about twenty of us down by the targets at a time, standing literally shoulder to shoulder. When told to commence firing, the guy on my right shoulder (he told me he was first year military) whipped his XD40 out from the small of his back, CLOSED HIS EYES, and unloaded the full magazine (15+). He then smiled, nodded, and walked away. The man on my right was borrowing a 38spl from the range, and he was having difficulty working the trigger, and at several points pointed it directly at me. I felt very unsafe and I freaked. I fired my rounds and I walked back up the range, asked for my certificate of completion, and left.

The only reason I waited a few weeks to share my tale is that I was so emotionally charged when I got home, that I wanted some time to process the experience. As a whole, I just wasn’t impressed with the course: the instructor, the content, everything. There was hardly any mention of concealed carry policy. Most (I mean 98%) of the content was functions of a handgun, and general gun safety. I don’t know if I had false hopes about what the course would entail. However, I do know that the brochure advertising the class (which made me choose that particular location) noted specific CCW topics, such as safe concelament, guns and child safety (which wasn’t even mentioned), CCW clothing, etc.

Should I have expected more?

[GalilARM]

Thats too bad....there really are a lot of courses out there that teach people the more important and relevant parts of CCWing, but then there are courses like this too. Sounds like a big joke to me.

[Perldog007]

Sounds like you bought a one way ticket to Bozoville.

Sorry about your luck. CCW courses and SO courses tend to vary, in my experience.

I am going to take the state mandated course in January for the paperwork requirements in my new state. Next December the instructor I want will be back from assignment in Iraq and then I will get my money's worth.

If you got your ccw, came out of it without any new holes, you did okay from what you described. There are some really good schools a days drive or so from where you are. Perhaps you might want to save up and go to gunsite, chuck taylor or some such.

unfortunately in firearms instruction you don't always get what you pay for. Some of the best marksmanship lessons I ever had were from a pro who took pity on me spending so much on .44 mag ammo and gave me some free pointers.

I have also paid good money for ccw classes and gotten the lecture I should have been wearing an aluminum foil hat for........

Glad you came home safe - consider that the value! get more training!

[JWT]

Certainly sounds like you should have 'gotten' more.

The instructor that taught the course I took in AZ spent about 6 hours with us. He covered the AZ laws concerning concealed carry in detail and spent considerable time explaining what legal and civil action might be expected if a person uses a gun to defend themselves. He clearly explained what constitutes concealed carry in AZ and the Castle Doctrine. He displayed several revolvers and semi automatic pistols and explained their function and proper use.

He administered the required written test, assisted in filling out permit applications, and did the required finger printing.

Then he inspected the guns to be used for the shooting qualification and then provided targets and had us do the shooting to qualify.

He was highly recommended and the course was well worth the fee charged.

[Rob Pincus]

Well, you certainly deserve more.. but you can't expect much from a CCW course aimed at meeting standards to get a permit as opposed to z course designed to increase your ability to defend yourself.

The best you can do now is, at least regionally, publicize your disappointment so that others don't have to endure the same goof.

-RJP

[ragwd]

To bad about your experience, I was lucky to have found the class that I did. http://www.commencefire.com/
Totally run by L.E. very thorough 12 hour course including the 2 hour range time. Range was the same used by L.E. and local Nation Guard. Safety was stressed to the extreme. They taught the law and safety. Then tested our ability to handle and shoot. Shooting part was too easy, they helped people that were having problems but they were not there to teach marksmanship. They did give a basic stance and grip and squeeze talk but the course was mostly about the laws. They also offered a advanced pistol course, which I really liked. Hopefully your next class will be better, don't stop at just a ccw class. There is soo much more to personal defense shooting.

[Adventurer 2]

I have a friend that took a one day class and he is now able to instruct CCW classes. He just wants to make an extra buck. The person I took my CCW class from was close to a 20 year police officer. He took his teaching seriously. I think the Attorney General set the requirements for the class. Listening to legal stuff is boring. But that is part of the requirements. The range we went to was one of the nicer ones that I have been to.
There is no excuse to run an unsafe range. Somebody could get seriously hurt.
About ten years ago I had a CCW in a different state and I did not have to even take a class to get the permit. I'm a lot smarter about CCW today.
Unfortuneately, you got robbed from somebody that is trying to make a buck. I don't know who sets the standards for your state, county, whatever, but maybe you could send an e-mail to whoever sets those standards - get the bum shut down. Hopefully, you can find answers to your questions.

[TexasSeaRay]

Unfortunately, in our gun community, we have less-than-stellar individuals just as you do in any society or community.

What I despise are those unscrupulous types who exploit other gun owners/would-be gun owners. And it sounds like the bozos that hosted and ran this CCW class were doing nothing more than exploiting potential CCL applicants.

It's rare that I run across a truly, blatantly unsafe firing range or incompetent (read: DANGEROUS) instructor, but when I do, I contact the NRA and strongly voice my concerns. I've done this three times in the past fifteen years, and they (NRA) have helped in every single situation. They're a big group and it takes a bit, but they'll help you. They don't want bozos or cronies out there representing the legitimate, responsible gun-owning community.

Jeff

[YounGun24]

The thing that really makes me feel like I got screwed, is the fact that the company that offered the class owns both the range and the "Gun and Personal Safety" store.

[James41]

I would say you got the big weenie on that course man. Normally a ccw course only costs about $60, or at least here in Oklahoma it does. Sounds like what you got was someone with a rep, deserved or not, and not a teacher.

But then perhaps you were expecting to much from the course as this is not really a training course but more or less an introduction into ccw giving you the highlights of the laws and helping you with the paperwork.

What you really need is a good instructor in combat handguns where someone who knows what the heck is going on takes the time to show you how to use your weapon and develop the skills needed for combat and to survive. There are a lot of schools that teach these things and they are not cheap. By not cheap i mean that they seem to charge about $200 a day and up depending on who and where, so pick carefully.

Even if you are already a decent shot a good instructor can usually raise your level a few notches, but remember what ccw really is all about, combat and the saving of your life and the lives of your loved ones and the skills required for that are quite a bit different than paper target shooting. By the mere fact you are carrying a gun you proclaim that you are willing to kill another human being if the need arises, but without the proper skills to do so, you will probably be the one that gets killed or even worse yet your wife or your child and then you would have that to live with.

[The Tourist]

Yes, it's a bad situation. There is nothing, however, in stopping you from obtaining more training. And as we've discussed here recently, a more aggressive required training/test might chill the actual posession of CCW license.

Consider this, in our wild past, a guy just walked into a gun store, bought a handgun, slipped it into a holster and walked out into the world.

And this was the usual condition in America. In his book, Elmer Keith wrote that every porch in his town had a bullet hole. I doubt there was much training during that era, except for a boy's dad and a few beer cans.

If you've shot IPSC you're lucky. Perhaps you can pass on those skills whenever a chance presents itself. We're all in this together.

[azsixshooter]

+1 on getting more training. I'm shocked that they took you for $120 for 4 hours, that's insane. My CCW was only around $80 for 8 hours of instruction and we also got range time and time in the simulator doing shoot/don't shoot scenarios with the laser glock. The instructor was LE and was a very good guy who covered the material thoroughly and made sure everyone's questions were answered.

After hearing your story I appreciate the quality of that class even more. I took it at the Urban Firearms Institute at Caswell's Shooting Range in Mesa, AZ about 3 years ago.

[CrazyIvan007]

File a complaint with the BBB and file a conplaint/report with your Sheriff's Dept.

County Sheriff's are not keen on handing out permits to folks who are not properly trained. Many of these CCW courses are not up to code when it comes to qualification and training.

You may also be interested in requesting a refund and if they do not provide it, perhaps file a claim with small claims court.

It is too bad you didn't get the names/numbers of anyone there to provide as a witness. Though, the Sheriff's dept. would most likely contact people who used the certification from that company for information.

I woulda went home & cancelled the check.

Good Luck!

[Pahoo]

YounGun24 ; Yes, you are correct in expecting more and that speaks well for you. However, "it is what it is hopefully you now have your permit.

I personally find it interesting that some replies suggest that any required training is un-constitutional and then others like myself feel that good training is important and encouraged. Take some satisfaction that you were given the opertunity to participate. Training is only relative and the quality runs the full spectrum. Unfortunately, you got in on the lower end. Keep looking and remember that when you "carry", you walk on ice. Make sure the ice is thick!!!

[adamo340pd]

My CCW class was a 3 hour class just as bad given at a local gun show. The first instructor to speak did nothing but talk down to us his entire lecture and told us point blank if we didn’t like the way he ran the class to leave! The next instructor filled our heads with what if-when to shoot scenarios, nothing about proper firearms handling. They pushed the books, pepper spray, etc. they sold as a side line. Lastly the qualification was to drive to a gun range and fire a single shot (all the state requires) at the target, not to be aimed just pick up the gun and fire downrange in the direction of the target. Then they gave you a certificate. The only good thing about the course was the all inclusive aspect as they photographed, finger printed and notarized all the documents too.

My wife attended a different class at a local gun shop and the instructor allowed me to sit in and listen. Her class was totally different with one-on-one instruction from a qualified NRA instructor. I was truly impressed with his approach and desire that the student learn how to handle a firearm safely. This class did not offer the photo or fingerprinting but she left the class with experience in safety, handling, gun laws and even how to clean the weapon.

[chris in va]

Welcome to the NRA style training. Hit or miss in my experience. Seems anyone can claim to be an 'instructor' and get the usual NRA materials then teach it out of his condo in a highrise building (yes, it happened to me).

Personally I feel anything less than all day for handgun training is a waste of time, and even then it depends on what is presented. In VA you can take a 2 hour handgun safety course, get your permit and walk around town not having a clue about local firearm laws or when it's appropriate to draw.

[BlkHawk73]

Just like anything, be a class or an actual purchase, it's always a good idea to do yuor homework beforehand. Go with noted instructors and quality items. You get what you pay for.
I have to think though that this was a beginner course to more-or-less show the beginner the basics just to get them going. It's always the responsibilty of the stdent to know the material and register accordingly. Next time, you'll be cleared for the next level.

[allenomics]

In my state the CCW class is beyond a total joke. The instructor even had us grade our own tests!

The content was very basic and the course instructor allowed so many people to take the class that most people couldn't clearly hear what he was saying.

On the range, we fired ONE round.

If we don't demand better, the government, while not denying our right to own guns, could enfore more strick guidelines that may be more than necessary.

[XD Gunner]

In KY the maximum fee is $75.00

I paid $85.00 for the course, and to rent a VERY nice indoor range. The instructor was VERY knowledgeable and basically gave us a 5.5 hour lecture on CCDW laws, safety concerns, do's and don'ts and your justifiable right to use deadly force. He then gave us 30 minutes on gun anatomy, shooting stance and weapon choices. Then fielded questions for another 30 minutes.

He then checked our guns for safety, and operational concerns, and we went to the range. We very methodically went to the range and shot groups of five, each shot on the whistle. The instructor even gave me tips on my stance, and how to correct my mistakes.

6 weeks later I have my CCDW, and I am very confident in my instruction and money spent.

[orionengnr]

File a complaint with the BBB and file a conplaint/report with your Sheriff's Dept.
County Sheriff's are not keen on handing out permits to folks who are not properly trained. Many of these CCW courses are not up to code when it comes to qualification and training.
You may also be interested in requesting a refund and if they do not provide it, perhaps file a claim with small claims court.

I'm sorry, but I cannot support any of these suggestions. First off, what does your state require? If this guy did not fulfill the state requirements for training, then contact the state DPS or hatever agency licenses the instructor.
If the state has no training requirement, or a nebulous requirement (unspecified "safety" training), did you take this based upon someone's recommendation? Was it an NRA course? If so, contact the NRA.

Please do not involve the BB, courts, news agencies, Sheriff or any other government agency who may use this against CCW in general.

There is a potential for far more harm than good.

You may also serve as a negative reference for this organization (here and elswhere) while benefiting your fellow CCWers and steering business elsewhere at the same time.

[Hkmp5sd]

Being an instructor, let me voice in on the other side. In Florida, the CCW course is about safe firearm handling. That is why they will accept any type of firearms training, including such things as hunter safety courses. It has nothing to do with teaching the law. I use the NRA basic handgun guidelines and teach safe shooting and gun handling.

Trying to teach concealed weapon laws opens the instructor to all kinds of liabilities. We are not lawyers and should not be offering legal advice.

[Hansen]

WOW! I would think an instructor would want to add some legal issues into the class. As an instructor myself, I find that is where most lack info. Most people that I have found to take My CCW courses are very knowledgeable in gun handling, just lacking info on the legalities in firearms!

I know every state has different requirements, but if an instructor actually makes his course exceed the basic requirements it will go a long way in getting more business and keep negative comments down to a minimun or none at all.

John Hansen
www.blackwolfccw.com

[Hansen]

As for going to the BBB, Not sure I can agree with that one. If the instructor was meeting minimun guidelines then there is nothing to complain about.

Not sure where you are from, but in AZ everyone can contact the department that regulates the CCW program and they will look into your complaint. It is just one way to keep instructors honest and make them follow what your state has approved. I hate seeing people not getting the info they need to carry a gun, this is what makes all CCW people look bad.

You can voice your opinion, as you did, I have no problem with that. I do that too. As most of us do!!!!

[Traveler01]

It is very typical training that you describe. Most courses are bare bones.
There are some really good schools out there but most only do what is necessary .Dont waste time being upset about it, spend the time looking for a quality school that can provide the training you require.
The list in this forum is quite extensive and as a personal recommendation try Front Sight .com
Good luck.

[DWARREN123]

My course cost $50 and was quite a bit more involved and informative. Does sound like you did not get your moneys worth.