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September 15, 2005, 07:19 AM | #51 |
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If you carry an auto the main reason to carry a spare magazine has nothing to do with firepower.
It has everything to do with the fact that 90 percent of auto malfunctions are magazine related. The typical firefight is over with three rounds fired at about ten feet. I carry a spare mag in case I have a feedway hangup and the feed lips on my primary mag get bent. In regards to what a jury thinks, the only jury case I ever sat through where the number of shots fired came up was in a murder trial in a domestic violence case. The husband shot the wife six times with a Ruger .357 magnum, reloaded and shot her again. All of this was in front of their kids. Had he shot her three times or five times, it would not have made much difference to the jury. In my opinion the only group of people out there who don't understand anything at all about terminal ballistics are "professional" journalists, whose only ideas of anything law enforcement related tends to be based on old tv shows. They blindly buy into the fantasy that if you shoot somebody one time with a .22 or a 9mm the person will fly backwards and die like they do in movies. The also seem to overlook the same movies where the good guy gets shot a few times and seems oblivious to the injury..... These same folks get angry at police when they get robbed and nobody starts dusting for fingerprints as they don't realize fingerprints are useless unless you alllready have a suspect. (Unless you have been inthe military, the police, security work or jail, chances are your fingerprints are not on file). |
September 15, 2005, 08:26 AM | #52 |
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Somekid,
I carry my weapon at the 2:00 position (towards the front from my right hip, kind of right over my right front pocket of my jeans). That seems to be the most comfortable and quickest draw for me. I'm right handed, so I'd grab my gun w/ my right hand, use that thumb to hit the mag release, then use my left hand to get the spare mag. I wouldn't be switching hands at all, so no time lost. Your point is a good one, it just doesn't apply to me. Others might benefit from it though. If I did position my holster on my back somewhere, then I could see where having the spare in a different place would be necessary. Everyone, And before someone says something about "the holster should be towards your back, in case the BG is right up on you in the front, it would make it difficult to draw your weapon...." I thought about that scenario. My thought was: Then again, the BG could attack me from behind, therefore having more direct access to my weapon (then I would be more vulnerable, not seeing him in the first place). I figure, more than likely (no data to support this thought though), I'd be facing the threat and backing away, so I'd prefer my gun to be up front where I can reach it better (and the BG be able to SEE it, hopefully changing his mind). Either way, wherever the holster and spare are, I see a problem. The task of loading a spare mag into the gun is a two-handed operation, isn't it? What happens if the BG has your other hand locked in some sort of struggle, like say you're keeping him from choking you with your weak hand while your strong hand is grabbing your gun? You empty a mag into him, but he's doped up on something, and still attacking? How do you get that other mag, and load it into your gun, all one-handed? Any thoughts on this anyone?
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September 15, 2005, 09:06 AM | #53 |
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Dave.
If that is comfortable for you, carry away. I have a holster for my P97 which I generally sit at 12. Took my safety class with it, got a couple of odd looks. Even the instructor asked if'n it was comfortable. I thought it was. (It is OWB, and if you wanna see it, go look for the Carjacker Crossdraw from Andrews Custom Leather.) Your scenario... IMO, at that point your gun is better as a club than as a gun. That is a scenario for a good knife. |
September 15, 2005, 10:57 AM | #54 |
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Although I've chosen not to carry a spare for the above reasons, when I was deciding I came across some good products.
Since my goal was to conceal the magazine and not carry it on the WB, I saw products that carry on the wrist or ankle, in a nylon style pouch with velcro flap, with velcro straps. I thought it would work well on the ankle, but even better on the shooting hand under a long sleeve shirt. In a pinch you could just pull up the shirt sleeve and have access to the magazine. |
September 15, 2005, 11:15 AM | #55 |
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I usually just stick a spare in my left front pocket. Considering I have my pistol, multi-tool AND cell phone on my belt, I feel like friggin' Batman when I add a mag to it (I know I've got a grappling hook in here somewhere...)
And in the extremely unlikely event that I have to use my gun & end up in court, I'll deal with it. Better to have a spare mag & not need it than to need it & end up dead because of being so "forward-thinking" that you talked yourself out of carrying a spare mag. I'm OK with the idea of "shooting up the street" if it means I don't ... you know ... die. That slope was nice & slippery, so I thought I'd hop on... |
September 15, 2005, 09:08 PM | #56 | |
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leadcouncil said:
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September 16, 2005, 08:42 AM | #57 |
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In all actuallity, I used to think about just saying to hell with it and putting together my own Batman utility belt, because in my job, I have to carry spare batteries, spare film, a tape recorder, spare tapes etc.
I figured Icould slip a spare mag in there in a pouch somewhere too. >>>I usually just stick a spare in my left front pocket. Considering I have my pistol, multi-tool AND cell phone on my belt, I feel like friggin' Batman when I add a mag to it (I know I've got a grappling hook in here somewhere...) <<< |
September 16, 2005, 01:50 PM | #58 | ||
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LeadCounsel Wrote:
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September 16, 2005, 02:33 PM | #59 |
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+1 Wildalaska on the "indictment" comment.
DT -- I'll stand by that statement. I don't have "daily training" as in I don't drill on a daily basis to use lethal force as our LEOs and Military does. But I do have PAST training and still train "regularly" enough to be fresh. That being said, I'm 100% confident in any 'realistic' lethal or non lethal situation I may run into in my daily life. I'll also reiterate that I don't carry a spare mag b/c I see it as useless in a civilian urban situation and as such a waste of time and effort and it's just one more thing I've gotta carry and be responsible for and draw attention to me as a CCW, which is what I DON"T want. I've said it 100 times but it's worth restating... Don't carry a POS and you won't have to worry about it. If the Gods are frowning on you and you do get both attacked and your gun jams, then it takes less time to clear a jam than reload. Don't believe me, practice the drill. If your gun continues to jam, stop carrying a POS or get a 99.999999999% reliable revolver. A FTF means a second pull of the trigger. I think much too much time is spent worrying about 1 in 100,000 million scenareos and not real scenarios, such as conditioning your body and mind to be able to exercise (simulating running for cover or wrestling with attacker) and then shooting, aka tactics and physical training. To those carrying a second mag, try timing yourselves in a drill. First, see how long it takes you to reload under a real scenario. Then, see how many jams you can clear in that same time and ask yourself if you've EVER had to clear some 5 jams with your gun. If the answer is yes, get a different gun. |
September 16, 2005, 02:50 PM | #60 |
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Being an old fart, I can only bench around 200 lbs and so I must carry a spare magazine.
I have reloaded from a spare mag in all kinds of excercises under stress. In fact, some theorists suggest that with a jam, there is only one clearance exercise that makes sense - drop the mag and reload. There is controversy with that position versus tap, rack, assess, bang but hey, grasshopper - we are students on the path to steely eyed dealer of death enlightment. It's also fun to go to the range and advanced classes and see really high end guns go belly up when the fun starts. In my last training exercise, running through a shoot house (really outdoors) with moving targets and doors and walls and windows, my normally reliable G19 went oops and the instructors and students complimented me on my automatic and fast reload and getting back into the fight. See you at the mall, guys.
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September 16, 2005, 03:37 PM | #61 | |
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September 16, 2005, 04:01 PM | #62 |
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Batman, where do you keep your whistle on your utility belt?
Just spoke with an ex-Army E4 (aka a trained solider with years of experience working his way up from an E1). We all know that enlistees carry several magazines because it's the nature of their job. They don't carry extra ammo because they fear their guns will all jam. Admittedly civilian carry is dramatically different, but some fundamentals are the same. This is a multiple choice question so let's see how well you do: In a live fire exercise or in combat, if your weapon fails to feed, fails to cycle, fails to eject (basically a jam as we know it), the proper action is to: A) clear the round using the charging handle or slide and resume firing; or B) drop the full magazine and load another despite still having the obstacle of a jammed round in the chamber that still hasn't been addressed; or C) pull out a bootknife, one of two that you regularly carry; or D) blow on your whistle I'll give you a hint, it isn't B, C, or D (despite all of those options being very very attractive to you). I don't agree with what your "teachers" have to say about OC. It's only going to escalate the situation and while you've hand is holding a can of OC, your opponent has opted for his .357 in self defense. OC vs. .357, I'll take the .357 on my side. Last I knew, sheep did what their instructors told them without questioning the logic.... Think "outside" the box..... Last edited by leadcounsel; September 16, 2005 at 06:23 PM. |
September 16, 2005, 04:05 PM | #63 | ||||
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Neither is refusing to carry a spare out of fear of prosecution. MW: Quote:
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September 16, 2005, 04:13 PM | #64 |
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Cite to the article? I have not read it.
If that was the only charge against the guy, then can I presume one thing? Was the spare mag necessary in his self-defense situation? If not it illustrates exactly my point. If that's all the DA had on the shooter, and the crux of the DA's case was malice aforethought, then the shooter placed himself at serious risk of a prison term. For what purpose? Does it say how much the shooter had to spend on his defense? Whether he lost his job? Murder rap defenses can easily start at $25,000 and go into the 6 figures. Have you got that kinda cash layin' around? I certainly wouldn't want some DA thinkin' that because I had an extra mag I had malice aforethought beyond a self defense situation, even where I otherwise acted within the confines of the law (like this guy, probably). |
September 16, 2005, 04:44 PM | #65 | |||
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IIRC it was in Florida. He wasn't fired; he was in business for himself. IIRC, he had two guns in his truck and took one into his business. Also, IIRC, the grand jury kicked it out, before it went to trial. Quote:
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September 16, 2005, 05:42 PM | #66 |
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Oh, I"m sorry, it was *JUST* a grand jury empaneling for a homicide indictment charge. No biggie then.... Shooter probably didn't even bother with counsel....
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September 16, 2005, 06:17 PM | #67 | |
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Quote:
My point is: If you have a D.A. that would prosecute you for having a spare mag, he's going to prosecute you for something else anyway. Now if you want my opinion on the money thing, all you have to do is ask for it. Maybe it was six figures. Maybe it was $25,000. Maybe it was $50,000. Maybe the D.A. isn't the only slimy lawyer in town. Good guy probably got sued, too. Is your life and liberty worth $25,000 or $50,000? Or are you better off dead? If your life isn't worth the money, then don't defend yourself at all. |
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September 16, 2005, 06:32 PM | #68 |
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W, do you know how Grand Juries generally work (they do vary from state to state, but the concept is the same generally)?
If not, I'll tell you if you ask nicely.... but you probably won't believe me anyway :barf: Silly to ask whether I think my life is worth X number of $. The answer is yes. Why can't you hear what I'm saying about this whole controvesy...? I'd rather NOT be attacked; I'd rather NOT shoot someone; I'd rather NOT be shot at; I'd rather NOT have to defend my actions to a Grand Jury mainly on the grounds of malice aforethought (for an otherwise clean self defense shooting) because I was carrying more bullets than were shot in the OK Corral when the *average* self defense gunfight is 3 shots. I'd rather NOT lose my job, come under fire from the State Bar Assoc., and mortgage my house to retain a lawyer to steer me through a process because the DA thinks that my carrying an extra mag is malice aforethought. Can it happen? Evidently it did happen in FL. Sure, the grand jury's findings didn't warrent a trial, but at WHAT financial, emotional, and career costs? Sounds like he could have avoided the whole mess if he just didn't carry the spare mag. IMO carrying an extra mag is 1) pointless b/c you aren't ever gonna need it (and if you felt you did... you know my position about that); 2) adds extra weight and concealment issues; 3) is one more thing you've got to be responsible for; 4) takes up space that would work better for something else; 5) could be grounds for a left wing DA with an agenda to put YOU on the chopping block to help make HIS career milestone. Did I forget anything...? Also, it's not realistic to keep an eye on every DA and move as often as they are replaced. Besides, a DA may be pressured by many forces beyond his own good judgment and try a case he disagrees with; it happens daily. |
September 16, 2005, 08:33 PM | #69 | |
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September 16, 2005, 09:11 PM | #70 |
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Can we get back to the subject at hand?
Maybe leadcouncil should start his own "Why not to carry this or that?" thread. |
September 17, 2005, 10:10 AM | #71 |
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I'm sure leadcounsel means well even if he's quite opinionated about it. Working in that defacto cesspool can probably affect your thinking after awhile.
I think that if one is so worried abought what the DA might do, then maybe it'd be best to not carry at all. Myself, I'll keep my extra ammo thanks. I liked thar mag up the sleeve idea. Where'd you see that at? Got a link? |
September 17, 2005, 10:44 AM | #72 |
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spare ammo
I carry my spare mag for my semi auto in my left pocket. When I carry my J frame , I carry my speedloaders in my right front pocket.
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September 17, 2005, 11:58 AM | #73 |
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It depends
If I'm wearing a vest (not ballistic, just full of pockets, for cover) I always put a spare mag in the lower right pocket of the vest. This serves a two-fold purpose. First, I have a spare magazine, in case of malfunction or needing an extra fifteen rounds of ammo. Second, and more importantly, it provides a weight that keeps that side of the vest less susceptible to wind, and allows me to flip it open easily for my drawstroke.
If I'm not wearing my vest, it goes in my left front pocket with my cellphone. I can hear you now: with his cellphone? Well, it works very well. Since the magazine is longer than the cellphone, it's the first thing I hit when I stick my hand in that pocket. Furthermore, the cellphone wedges it in against the back of the pocket, preventing it from shifting around and not being in the precise location I want it to be. It should be noted, however, that if I'm not wearing the vest, I often don't carry a spare magazine. It's probably not the safest move, but I already carry (literally) five or six pounds worth of crap in my pants. Adding in that extra half a pound of explosives and lead is just that much more uncomfortable. |
September 17, 2005, 12:17 PM | #74 |
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Link to wrist mag pouch:
http://www.gamepod.com/store_020.htm I've also seen this someplace else but I cannot locate it right now. |
September 17, 2005, 01:25 PM | #75 |
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Forget those mag carriers with the plastic retainer clip, by the time you undo the plastic clip to reach for your extra magazine - the BG has probably shot / stabbed you to pieces or both.
Try retention holders like: https://secure.fobusholster.com/cata...x.php?cPath=28 For about 15 bucks they are a bargain, and with practice, you can reload in under 3 seconds. Plus they are paddle mounted - easy to remove and put back on without taking off your belt. I have found - these are most convenient way to carry extra mags - unless you prefer pocket carry. |
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