Alcohol and Self Defense

[newerguy]

The threads mentioning being able or not able to carry a handgun into a bar made me think of posting this.

Has everyone thought about their drinking habits.

First off, I don't handle a firearm when I've been drinking, as a matter of fact, I'm probably have a little tougher "guns while drinking" standard that "driving while drinking", although that's probably not rational.

More importantly, if you are concerned about potential threats to the extent that you feel like you need a handgun (those who say, "I won't go somewhere if I can't carry my gun"), don't you agree that drinking impairs your ability to avoid trouble, fight, and shoot?

Frankly, I try and not hang out at places where I think I'm in danger of random violence, and if I go to a bar it's not one of the bad ones. Then again, I won't be carrying a gun either.

[News Shooter]

I have zero tolerance for myself or anyone else when it comes to guns and alcohol. If it's cocktail time all my guns are unloaded and locked up.

I should be the same way about driving, but I'm not. I trust myself within reason behind the wheel, but I don't with guns. I suppose it is rationalization, but then so is life

[rampage841512]

I've thought about this myself. I try to do my drinking at home. I have guns there that I can access them if I absolutely have too, but I try to keep myself in the safest possible place when I'm drinking so that I won't have. I realize a lot of crime happens in the home, but it's my home and I've got the defensive advantage there as I can make it as hard a target as I want.

I am generally one of those people who won't go somewhere my gun can't go unless I have no choice in the matter (gotta go to the courthouse tomorrow to file some papers). Anyway, if I go to a bar the gun stays in the car. I'm not prone to temper or rashness when I'm drunk, and even if I was I don't get drunk in bars. I have maybe two drinks and I'm out of there. It's more for the social experience than anything else, anyway. Also, I only go to one bar where I know the bartender and I'm friendly with a lot of the regular patrons.

[prscustom]

I have NO issue with a patron not carrying into a bar. The problem that arrises w/ me is if I want to go out to a nice meal. Even if I am not drinking I can only go to McDonalds if I'm carring. Any decent place to eat had a class D. I too like only to support establishments that permit CCWing and i think the day i feel I wont need my piece is the day I will. I think CCW should be like driving. If a problem arrises give me a tube to blow in and let me deal w/ that in court.




***Don't drink and play w/ guns, drive, ask out women, opperate heavy machinery, agree to buisness deals, offer to help people move, balance your check book, etc. etc....

[springmom]

I certainly want anybody who is going to be knocking back a lot of booze to put his or her guns in the safe for the night (at home or in a bar or at the local restaurant). That's probably a real good idea...not that it's necessary for everybody but for some folks, it probably is.

But likewise, if I go into a restaurant and have one glass of wine with a full dinner, I am not, repeat not, impaired. To say that I would need to lock up my guns to go to a restaurant in downtown Houston, for example, is to say that I need to be defenseless walking from the parking lot or garage to the restaurant and back...and I don't think I want to be that way, thanks.

More importantly, if you are concerned about potential threats to the extent that you feel like you need a handgun (those who say, "I won't go somewhere if I can't carry my gun"), don't you agree that drinking impairs your ability to avoid trouble, fight, and shoot?

No, actually, I don't agree. I don't get drunk. I don't even drink to the point of impairment. I certainly don't drink to the point of getting into fights, or looking for trouble. And as was pointed out in another thread elsewhere, where this issue was brought up, a small amount of alcohol can actually increase the accuracy of a shooter (to the point that the Olympics at one point had to test shooters for alcohol before a meet!)

There seems to be a presumption here that having a drink = getting plastered. It doesn't. And given that I'm an adult, that I'm adjudged by the state to be mature and sane enough to carry this gun on my hip, I am also mature and sane enough to control myself in regards to my behavior after a glass of good Zinfandel.

Springmom

[DonR101395]

I don't drink, but I occasionally go to bars as the DD and I don't like the law. I comply but don't like it. I'm being penalized for helping others who do drink. I won't leave a gun in the car, too many break ins. So, if I want to be the nice guy and endure a bunch of drunk people for the sake of their safety I unarm myself and endure myself to the torture of drunkland.


Edit: Unarmed isn't exactly true. I still have OC and knife.

[oldbillthundercheif]

What, y'all don't believe that "buzzed driving IS drunk driving"?

Good. Neither do I.

I never drive if I think that I'm at .04 or over (1/2 way to "drunk" in LA), but those commercials annoy the hell out of me. If they want to lower the limit again, they should just say that instead of making responsible drinkers out to be irresponsible psychopaths.

[Starsky]

It's actually real simple:

Alcohol and guns

and

Alcohol and vehicles

simply do not go together. I cannot began to tell you the number of folks in my 20 years in LE that found themselves in serious, serious legal trouble including the illegal death of others as a result of one of the above, all the time swearing they were not impaired.

Down I'll get down off my soapbox

[springmom]

I cannot began to tell you the number of folks in my 20 years in LE that found themselves in serious, serious legal trouble including the illegal death of others as a result of one of the above, all the time swearing they were not impaired.

I don't doubt it for a minute, and I wouldn't have your job for all the tea in China, for what you have to see.

That said, you see the ones who DID get into trouble. How many of the folks who drove by while you were doing your job had just been to dinner and had a beer or a glass of wine and were just fine as they drove by?

Hard to say.

But not everyone who swears they're not impaired is wrong. You unfortunately have to deal with the ones who are, and they didn't get that way with one beer or one glass of wine.

Springmom

[Avenger11]

Most people drink for the "buzz" if they are honest. It really doesn't taste that good or enhance the dining experience IMO. So to me a buzz by definition = impairment. I do agree with Springmom that a drink may actually relax you and improve your ability to perform to a point. I'm an avid bowler and always score higher after a couple of beers, but it goes downhill quickly after that.Drinking and self defense is a personal choice and only you know what is appropriate.

[Groundhog]

My "gray area" is that one beer at dinner. I think that if you have even one, whatever incident you get into then gets that ominous tag of "alcohol was involved" and things potentially get a lot worse. I guess I don't have to deal with it for the time being since I'm on a strict diet at the moment and booze is a no-no, but eventually, I'll have to decide which way to go.

[JWT]

A good number of people - or at least a number of them that I know -insist on a designated driver if they're going to have any alcohol. Great idea from a safety aspect as well the legal aspect. To me, the same should apply to guns and booze - if you're going to shoot, let someone else do the drinking, if you're going to imbibe let someone who isn't do the shooting.

Booze and guns and cars just don't mix.

[newerguy]

There is a level of intoxication that causes a person to loose muscle control to the point were they can't shoot straight. Below that, there is a point were you might just get careless. But below that, there is a point were you are going to be just a bit slower, just a bit less aware of your surroundings, and just a bit less able to make good split second decisions. There might be a point where a little bit will take the edge off before competion, I don't know. I doubt that that same ammount will improve your odds in a gun fight.

I'm I'm drinking, the guns are away, and I won't shoot with people who have been drinking, because it just takes one careless mistake to cause an accident. However, I would think that if you are expecting trouble, armed or not, you shouldn't be drinking.

As to what Groundhog says, I'l agree, and add that police and DA's probably aren't going to believe that you had "just one beer", even if it's true.

[jaymag]

I't don't matter what anyone say's.The only person who can tell you what to do is you.I KNOW! when to pull mine.I would rather not bring It?But I won't say that I haven't.

[j-framer]

Most people drink for the "buzz" if they are honest. It really doesn't taste that good or enhance the dining experience...

Yes, true. Acknowledging the word "most" in that statement and allowing for those who really do like the taste of rotten and/or fermenting fruit, hops, etc., most people, when pressed, will admit something along those lines.

As for the issues raised in the original post, well, I guess I have it easy. In my 57 years, I have never consumed an alcoholic beverage, save for whatever wine was used in preparing various food dishes, the Amaretto in a Cassada cake, etc. Never had the slightest inclination to try--nearly all booze smells absolutely revolting to me .

Give me a cold glass of lemonade any day of the week .

[hottbarrell]

Any alcohol even one with a meal means if you use your weapon that issue WILL come up along with the stigma thats attached to alcohol and firearms,I dont carry if drinking at all,I use a cs spray with a right cross hard enough to break my hand,and have on three occasions all three pronounced unconcious, I choose nicer venues to drink my dark draft in these days. One incident was a disgruntled drunk at a liquor store that wouldnt cash his check, took a shot at me on my way in,I slipped the punch, he fell to the ground, and was then so pissed he tackled me into the side of the building slamming his head, it didnt take much to knock him out and feed him an eastwing.

[Socrates]

Well, I'm living with someone that just got her second DUI.
She's loosing her license, and, will not drive for 2 years. Insurance will be 1000 dollars a month when she gets the right back to drive.

Most folks don't know, but, if you hit someone, or they hit you, and you have ANY ALCOHOL IN YOUR SYSTEM, YOUR TOAST. Here, standard procedure is off to jail for at least the night.
That's how my GF got nailed. She barely tapped a guy, foot came off the brake at a stop light. Problem is she knows a retired LEO/attorney, and, she missed out on the sobering, and, for me, life changing experience, of getting incarcerated. NEVER again. She didn't get out of it on this second one, so, hopefully, things will change, she's trying...

Socrates J.D.

PS Spend 60 bucks get a breathalyzer, and check yourself, before you ever think of drinking and driving.

[Hemicuda]

I'm one of those who actually LIKES the one occasional stinking, rotten hoppes or fermented grain...

A six-pack of expensive dark beer lasts a month or better... I have had the same bottle of Glenfiddich scotch for over a year, and there's still a few shots left in it...

I have ONE beer or scotch, on occasion, for it's FLAVOR...

I do NOT unload and hide the guns when I have that one... no reason to... at 6'-3" and over 250 pounds, that one ain't crapola in my bloodstream...

[mvpel]

New Hampshire has never prohibited guns in bars or other places where alcohol is served, and our experience over the decades demonstrates that such restrictions on the right to self-defense are nothing more than ridiculous superstition.

In fact, were it not for a gun in a bar recently, someone could have been killed - an armed patron came to the defense of a bouncer in Manchester.

The key is "know thyself" - if you know that you're prone to drinking until you're wasted, don't bring your firearm. If, like me, you enjoy a beer or a glass of wine with dinner, and know that you will drink in pleasant moderation and switch to water when you're done, then a "zero tolerance" attitude towards firearms is just as irrational there as it is in public schools.

[sterno]

What really sucks for me is that I don't drink, but I'm a musician who's constantly in bars. Here in Louisiana you can't carry in a bar at all so if I want to be legal I don't carry. I'll leave it in the car because most of the bars we play in are in relatively safe locations but some of the areas we'll drive through to get there aren't that safe. Then again, New Orleans isn't that safe...

But I always have my knife and I'm about 6'4", 275 with a big beard, tattoos, and four other band members not too far behind.

Now I'm gonna go and call my congressmongrel and chew their ear off about this.

[VirgilCaine]

My concern is....
What if my wife and I are enjoying a bottle of wine or a frosty pitcher of margarita's at home one evening, and I get into the range of being legally intoxicated...then I find my self in SD situation at home.

Would it still be good shoot if I was buzzed?

"ladies and gentleman of the jury, Mr. Caine had been drinking tequila before...blah blah blah"

I dunno.

[Epyon]

I would think being intoxicated in your own home and then shooting in defense would fall under the castle doctrine wouldn't it? I mean you didn't go out looking for trouble, someone brought it to your doorstep. Although there is that one story of a burgalar who broke into a house, sued for breaking some bones while entering, and won the case!


Epyon


EDIT: Sorry for spelling your name wrong, still half asleep.

[Groundhog]

My concern is....
What if my wife and I are enjoying a bottle of wine or a frosty pitcher of margarita's at home one evening, and I get into the range of being legally intoxicated...then I find my self in SD situation at home.

It would probably depend on how cut and dried the situation looked. In any case, that's a situation where you'd rather by judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[somechick1980]

in situations like that, i think it all depends on your state's laws. in my state if you go onto someone's property and a fight breaks out (whether it be fist fight or weapons involved), you are the one in trouble, regardless of whether or not the owner of the property is intoxicated.

it just all depends on how your state's laws are constructed.

[gordo_gun_guy]

....but in states where it's legal to do so, I don't pass on the wine or beer at dinner, just because I'm packing.

Most people drink for the "buzz" if they are honest. It really doesn't taste that good or enhance the dining experience...

I firmly believe in the science behind the apertif: alchohol, among its other good/bad effects, causes your blood sugar to spike and then crash, making you hungry. I do find this heightens my enjoyment of a fine meal. I saw it on the Discovery Channel, so it must be true. If you don't trust tv science, you can't deny the success of all those munchy stands when the bars and clubs close.

I never carry in bars, because I'm a stickler for the letter of the law and haven't lived anywhere it's legal. Doesn't seem like a good idea, because there, the goal is buzzin'. Likewise, you may be in control, but someone else's drunken beligerence may force your hand. Fortunately, I only go to bars when my peer group drags me there. Safety in numbers and all.

I learned over a decade ago the distinction between abuse and use of alcohol. Even at home, I don't see the need to get sloppy-drunk.

My $.02: Sure, alcohol causes some terrible problems, but our society has gotten a little wrapped around the axle about it. If you negligently run someone over, you're guilty of manslaughter regardless of the negligence being due to drinking, lack of sleep, or stupidity. Likewise with shooting someone; it's a negligent homicide whether or not the root cause was alcohol, drugs, or mental illness. I don't believe alcohol should be considered a mitigating or exascerbating factor: you did what you did, and you have to pay for it. Maybe lowering the drinking age to 16 and the driving age to 18 or 21 would give folks a chance to understand impairment before raising the stakes with a couple tons of metal flying around....