Has anyone used the Hornady swaged Lswc in 357

bossman · May 17, 2011, 10:19 AM

I use them for the 38 spl and like them for that. I'm thinking of using them for the 357. But that would be pushing them since they are a swaged bullet.

Have any of you used this bullet for 357? I read somewhere that the Hornady Swaged bullet was a harder bullet than the Speer swaged bullet. Anyone know if this is fact or fiction?

I guess I'll be using Universal Clays to start . They list a starting load of 4 gr. with a 158 lswc cast bullet. Thanks for any info,bossman

LDBennett · May 17, 2011, 03:19 PM

The trick with lead bullets is to keep the velocity under 1000 FPS. It usually works to minimize or eliminate leading of the barrel. For a lead bullet (cast or swaged) of about 158 gr weight your Clays load of 4.0 grs appears to fit that bill. But lead softness varies greatly. Cast bullets usually contain tin and antimony to make them harder than dead soft lead. But swaged bullet are normally made from rolls of pure lead wire and as such are dead soft. The only way to determine what will work is to try it. The worst case scenario is the barrel will lead up and you'll have to use a lead cloth to remove the build-up. Then just reduce the load and try again until you find a level of pressure that does not lead the barrel.

I do shoot dead soft Hornady 38 SPL 148 gr HBWC in my S&W Model 52 target semi-auto pistol at about 750 FPS with no leading problems. But when I reload for my 357 revolvers I shoot copper plated bullet from Rainiers at the 1000 FPS level with no problems. The plating of the bullet serves two purposes. The first is to assure the gun will NOT lead the barrel at 1000 FPS and slower and to confine the lead splatter generated from hitting the backstop in an indoor range (minimizes lead dust in the air in the indoor ranges).

In my experience the Rainier bullets from my source are just about as expensive as the Hornady swaged bullet. I shoot them in all my revolvers in calibers from 357mag to 44 mag (downloded to 44SPL specs). I prefer to use jacket bulk bullets (Win & Rem) for my semi-autos in 9mm and 45ACP and for ANY powerful full magnum loads.

LDBennett

FrankenMauser · May 17, 2011, 03:59 PM

I am not using them in .357/.38, but .44 and .32 calibers.

I'm running the 240 gr LSWCs at about 950 fps, out of .44 Mag brass. They're quite accurate, and don't lead if the bore is clean. If you shoot them over heavy fouling or old lead deposits, things get very ugly.

In .32 caliber, I'm running the 90 gr HBWC in .32 S&W Long, .32 H&R, and .327 Federal brass. I have loaded them in excess of 1,150 fps. Although the bore usually appears to be severely leaded, while shooting the hot loads... everything comes out with just a patch down the bore. I believe I have been able to get away with a little extra velocity with the HBWCs, because of the longer bearing surface and extra lube that comes with it.

Unlike my experience with the .44 caliber LSWCs, I had no issues with shooting the .32 HBWCs over fouling or old lead deposits. It could be the bullets. It could be the bores. Either way, I ran the .327 Blackhawk for 800 rounds, before cleaning. Two hundred of those were the HBWCs. (And everything came out with the first "debris removing" patch I pushed through the bore.)

As far as hardness goes...
I have never come across data from Hornady. However, there are many reports on the wonderful interwebs. Most reloaders that have tested the hardness put it at 8-9, with BHN 8 as the most common report.

However, the .35 caliber 158 gr LSWC and .45 caliber 200 gr bullets seem to have many reports of testing at BHN 10.

Either way, I'd set 1,000 fps as your max velocity.

Ozzieman · May 17, 2011, 07:11 PM

This is a better bullet and better price. I have pushed 44's over 1400 in a carbine with no problem.

http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html

FrankenMauser · May 18, 2011, 12:50 AM

Quote:

This is a better bullet and better price. I have pushed 44's over 1400 in a carbine with no problem.

There is no point in using a hard-cast bullet, if the hand loader has no plans to push it fast.

Ozzieman · May 19, 2011, 06:17 PM

Definition of “better”
From Hornady’s own web page 38 cal .358 140 GR, 350 BOX for 40.99$
From Penn own web page 38 cal in 3 different diameters 140 GR 500 for $37.00, 1000 $72.00.
Plus they are a better bullet for target, but price alone makes them a better bullet.
Try to get any help in loading from Hornady,,, good luck. Call Penn bullets and you can talk to the owner and he will help with loading information and sell you small samples to try.
Last point is the quality of Penn bullets, it's top notch.
No you don’t have to have cast if you’re not pushing them that fast, but you can and even at lower velocities your lead build up will be less with a cast bullet. He also has two cast hardness. The premium grade version with a 20+ BHN is what I use but you can get his standard cowboy grade which is still harder than swaged.

FrankenMauser · May 19, 2011, 08:05 PM

I understand you're a fan of Penn Bullets, but arguing over who makes the "better" bullet is like arguing over whether the Ruger Super Blackhawk or S&W 629 is better. Hard-cast vs Swaged is like Single Action vs Double Action.

Each bullet (or handgun) must be judged on the intended usage, condition of the firearm, and several other factors.

Two things to address right off:

Quote:

Try to get any help in loading from Hornady,,, good luck.

Hornady publishes data for all of their swaged bullets, in their reloading handbooks. It's not hard to get. If you don't like the powders they choose... Hodgdon, Accurate, and Ramshot have data for most calibers, cartridges, and weights, as well.

Quote:

From Hornady’s own web page 38 cal .358 140 GR, 350 BOX for 40.99$

Any reloader knows that purchasing directly from Hornady is absolutely idiotic. They charge full MSRP on their site. Even Midway has that bullet listed at $32.99 / 350. Powder Valley lists them at $25.93 / 350. With Powder Valley's price, that's $0.07 apiece.

Penn's price, when purchased 500 at a time: $0.07 apiece. The cost is equal.

And we continue.

Quote:

No you don’t have to have cast if you’re not pushing them that fast, but you can and even at lower velocities your lead build up will be less with a cast bullet.

There is absolutely no way to tell how much a particular hardness will lead any given bore, until you shoot some of the bullets in question. Chamber and bore size have more to do with leading than actual velocities.

In my .44 Mag, I get leading even with bullets as hard as BHN 22. The throats are tighter than the bore, which results in a loose-fitting bullet... and leading. (With the Hornady 240 gr SWCs being an exception... and they're a soft bullet!

)

In my .327 Federal and 9mm Luger, I don't EVER get leading. The bore may look nasty, but it's just powder fouling stuck to bullet lube. See my post above. I'm pushing BHN 8 bullets to nearly 1,200 fps, with no leading. ...Because I have a proper bullet-to-bore fit.

And the biggest reason you can't argue about who makes the "better bullet"...
Personal preference.
In the loads where I use (could be any brand) swaged bullets, it's not because of price. It's because they're decent bullets, and I want something that expands. Tossing a BHN 16-20 bullet at 950 fps is going to result in almost zero expansion, on anything but steel plates. Do the same with a BHN 8-10 bullet, and you'll usually get expansion on even just a 2x4 or water bottle.

We can argue all day long, about what we prefer for any given situation, in any given firearm. But, there is no answer for what company makes the better bullet, and what hardness that bullet would be. It depends...

The whole purpose of this thread, was to provide feedback for the OP. Your post was more of a marketing plug, that provided no real input (and did not address the original inquiry).

Ozzieman · May 20, 2011, 07:12 AM

Hornady Swaged bullet was a harder bullet than the Speer swaged bullet.

Seems to me he was asking for information on a harder bullet that is why I suggested Penn. I have no affiliation with Penn other than I have been using there product for over 10 years and he has been a very big help in information, PERSONAL information on loads for heavy bullets.
Comparing talking to a "real" person to a web site with load data is silly at best.
So again you found them at the same price 0.07 cents.
Again cast is better than swaged since they are harder in my experience with everything from 9mm to 45/70. I have used swaged and even at lower velocities that the 44 special pushes then they were horrible and that included your favorite Hornady. I will not use swaged bullets in my guns when I have found a better one that performs better at (in your own words) the same price from some one that has a small business that cares for his customers.
My favorite jacketed bullet is Hornady and I use a lot of Hornady load data. My major complaint with Hornady is with their FTX bullets and lack of coustomer support. These are the bullets that have the plastic tip.
I purchased 200 of them and found that no one makes a seater for the bullet that fits the profile. They are easily damaged. When I called Hornady, which took forever all the help I got was “Go buy a seater and have some one machine them to fit the bullet shape.” I now have 180 left in my bullet safe.
There is absolutely no way to tell how much a particular hardness will lead any given bore, until you shoot some of the bullets in question. Chamber and bore size have more to do with leading than actual velocities.
Absolutely correct and again another reason to go with a cast bullet manufacture since in most cases they will make you a bullet (at no extra cost) of several different diameters and hardnesses in small test samples so you don’t have 300 left out of a 350 buy. You can then match the bullet to your gun.
In 44 alone I have 3 different diameters for the 7 different guns that I shoot of the same bullet. This is from testing and having chamber and throats measured. Again this makes the cast bullet better.
As far as expansion I don’t see the relevance. Since we seem to be talking about very low velocity these are target loads. Lack of expansion to me is a positive since it’s easier to retrieve the fired rounds. I pull them from my backstop and each year and give them to a friend that casts his own. If I want expansion I use Hornady XTP's that look like blown up garbage cans after shooting.
There is nothing wrong with swaged bullets if you’re chucking them out of a gun at low velocities. But I can do the same thing with cast. The one advantage is that with hard cast you can do both low and high velocity as long as you match the bullet and powder to the gun.
And last if all you use is swaged your missing a lot of different weights and bullet profiles that will do amazing accuracy and hunting effects.
For 44 try to find a 320 GR swaged for the 44. Or try to find a swaged bullet weights for 44 from 180 to 320 GR.
You seem to be happy with your experience with Hornady swaged. I am happy with my experience with Penn.
My suggestion to the OP is to widen your choices and try cast.

May 17, 2011, 10:19 AM	#1
bossman Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 996	Has anyone used the Hornady swaged Lswc in 357 I use them for the 38 spl and like them for that. I'm thinking of using them for the 357. But that would be pushing them since they are a swaged bullet. Have any of you used this bullet for 357? I read somewhere that the Hornady Swaged bullet was a harder bullet than the Speer swaged bullet. Anyone know if this is fact or fiction? I guess I'll be using Universal Clays to start . They list a starting load of 4 gr. with a 158 lswc cast bullet. Thanks for any info,bossman __________________ NRA life member When the going gets tough, I just open another beer.

May 17, 2011, 03:59 PM	#3
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I am not using them in .357/.38, but .44 and .32 calibers. I'm running the 240 gr LSWCs at about 950 fps, out of .44 Mag brass. They're quite accurate, and don't lead if the bore is clean. If you shoot them over heavy fouling or old lead deposits, things get very ugly. In .32 caliber, I'm running the 90 gr HBWC in .32 S&W Long, .32 H&R, and .327 Federal brass. I have loaded them in excess of 1,150 fps. Although the bore usually appears to be severely leaded, while shooting the hot loads... everything comes out with just a patch down the bore. I believe I have been able to get away with a little extra velocity with the HBWCs, because of the longer bearing surface and extra lube that comes with it. Unlike my experience with the .44 caliber LSWCs, I had no issues with shooting the .32 HBWCs over fouling or old lead deposits. It could be the bullets. It could be the bores. Either way, I ran the .327 Blackhawk for 800 rounds, before cleaning. Two hundred of those were the HBWCs. (And everything came out with the first "debris removing" patch I pushed through the bore.) As far as hardness goes... I have never come across data from Hornady. However, there are many reports on the wonderful interwebs. Most reloaders that have tested the hardness put it at 8-9, with BHN 8 as the most common report. However, the .35 caliber 158 gr LSWC and .45 caliber 200 gr bullets seem to have many reports of testing at BHN 10. Either way, I'd set 1,000 fps as your max velocity. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

May 17, 2011, 03:19 PM	#2
LDBennett Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Hesperia CA Posts: 65	The trick with lead bullets is to keep the velocity under 1000 FPS. It usually works to minimize or eliminate leading of the barrel. For a lead bullet (cast or swaged) of about 158 gr weight your Clays load of 4.0 grs appears to fit that bill. But lead softness varies greatly. Cast bullets usually contain tin and antimony to make them harder than dead soft lead. But swaged bullet are normally made from rolls of pure lead wire and as such are dead soft. The only way to determine what will work is to try it. The worst case scenario is the barrel will lead up and you'll have to use a lead cloth to remove the build-up. Then just reduce the load and try again until you find a level of pressure that does not lead the barrel. I do shoot dead soft Hornady 38 SPL 148 gr HBWC in my S&W Model 52 target semi-auto pistol at about 750 FPS with no leading problems. But when I reload for my 357 revolvers I shoot copper plated bullet from Rainiers at the 1000 FPS level with no problems. The plating of the bullet serves two purposes. The first is to assure the gun will NOT lead the barrel at 1000 FPS and slower and to confine the lead splatter generated from hitting the backstop in an indoor range (minimizes lead dust in the air in the indoor ranges). In my experience the Rainier bullets from my source are just about as expensive as the Hornady swaged bullet. I shoot them in all my revolvers in calibers from 357mag to 44 mag (downloded to 44SPL specs). I prefer to use jacket bulk bullets (Win & Rem) for my semi-autos in 9mm and 45ACP and for ANY powerful full magnum loads. LDBennett

May 17, 2011, 07:11 PM	#4
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	This is a better bullet and better price. I have pushed 44's over 1400 in a carbine with no problem. http://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html

May 19, 2011, 06:17 PM	#6
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Definition of “better” From Hornady’s own web page 38 cal .358 140 GR, 350 BOX for 40.99$ From Penn own web page 38 cal in 3 different diameters 140 GR 500 for $37.00, 1000 $72.00. Plus they are a better bullet for target, but price alone makes them a better bullet. Try to get any help in loading from Hornady,,, good luck. Call Penn bullets and you can talk to the owner and he will help with loading information and sell you small samples to try. Last point is the quality of Penn bullets, it's top notch. No you don’t have to have cast if you’re not pushing them that fast, but you can and even at lower velocities your lead build up will be less with a cast bullet. He also has two cast hardness. The premium grade version with a 20+ BHN is what I use but you can get his standard cowboy grade which is still harder than swaged.

May 20, 2011, 07:12 AM	#8
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Hornady Swaged bullet was a harder bullet than the Speer swaged bullet. Seems to me he was asking for information on a harder bullet that is why I suggested Penn. I have no affiliation with Penn other than I have been using there product for over 10 years and he has been a very big help in information, PERSONAL information on loads for heavy bullets. Comparing talking to a "real" person to a web site with load data is silly at best. So again you found them at the same price 0.07 cents. Again cast is better than swaged since they are harder in my experience with everything from 9mm to 45/70. I have used swaged and even at lower velocities that the 44 special pushes then they were horrible and that included your favorite Hornady. I will not use swaged bullets in my guns when I have found a better one that performs better at (in your own words) the same price from some one that has a small business that cares for his customers. My favorite jacketed bullet is Hornady and I use a lot of Hornady load data. My major complaint with Hornady is with their FTX bullets and lack of coustomer support. These are the bullets that have the plastic tip. I purchased 200 of them and found that no one makes a seater for the bullet that fits the profile. They are easily damaged. When I called Hornady, which took forever all the help I got was “Go buy a seater and have some one machine them to fit the bullet shape.” I now have 180 left in my bullet safe. There is absolutely no way to tell how much a particular hardness will lead any given bore, until you shoot some of the bullets in question. Chamber and bore size have more to do with leading than actual velocities. Absolutely correct and again another reason to go with a cast bullet manufacture since in most cases they will make you a bullet (at no extra cost) of several different diameters and hardnesses in small test samples so you don’t have 300 left out of a 350 buy. You can then match the bullet to your gun. In 44 alone I have 3 different diameters for the 7 different guns that I shoot of the same bullet. This is from testing and having chamber and throats measured. Again this makes the cast bullet better. As far as expansion I don’t see the relevance. Since we seem to be talking about very low velocity these are target loads. Lack of expansion to me is a positive since it’s easier to retrieve the fired rounds. I pull them from my backstop and each year and give them to a friend that casts his own. If I want expansion I use Hornady XTP's that look like blown up garbage cans after shooting. There is nothing wrong with swaged bullets if you’re chucking them out of a gun at low velocities. But I can do the same thing with cast. The one advantage is that with hard cast you can do both low and high velocity as long as you match the bullet and powder to the gun. And last if all you use is swaged your missing a lot of different weights and bullet profiles that will do amazing accuracy and hunting effects. For 44 try to find a 320 GR swaged for the 44. Or try to find a swaged bullet weights for 44 from 180 to 320 GR. You seem to be happy with your experience with Hornady swaged. I am happy with my experience with Penn. My suggestion to the OP is to widen your choices and try cast.