Your most accurate handgun?

[darkgael]

The one on the top....from Feinwerkbau:
This target...five shots:

or this gun...which will do nearly as well but at five times the distance:

[OzeanJaeger]

Those just look accurate Darkgael!

[WESHOOT2]

I recall some years back Wiley Clapp mentioning he'd had a dozen varied GP100s in the Ransom Rest, and they were ALL better than one inch at 25 yds.

His best-ever group (at the time, of any handgun) was .29".

140g Hornady, CCI550, 19.0g H110, Redding Profile Crimp Die.

[OkieCruffler]

I'll disallow my Contenders but at normal handgun range, these two




shoot neck and neck way better than I can.

[Hunter0924]

Colt M45A1

[Pilot]

Centerfire - Browning Hi Power MK III, Silver Chrome, factory stock

Rimfire - Ruger MK II also, a 512.

[trigger643]

I don't know. They are all better then I am. When they aren't, I get rid of them.

[Blacktimberwolf]

My S&W 686 Security Special in .357 magnum.

[BIG P]

Thompson 16'' 7mm08,but my Ruger SRH aint bad either.

[boltomatic]

My Glock 19 can hit a man sized target 100% of the time at any range I could ever legally shoot someone, and since I don't shoot in competitions that makes the gun as accurate as possible for my sake!

[OkieCruffler]

Of course if you're talking about "accurate"

[AustinTX]

I'm guessing my 10" Freedom Arms .454 is my most accurate handgun. I don't have a scope on it to test it out myself, but I've read numerous accounts of people shooting sub-1" five-shot groups at 100 yards with the right loads.

I would guess the S&W Model 41 comes in second place. I've read plenty accounts of people getting sub-1.5" five-shot groups at 100 yards with the right ammo. The Python and S&W revolvers have to be in the mix as well.

My Swiss P210s are incredibly accurate, of course, but I hesitate to say that they could beat any of my old wheelguns. Maybe they could, but I wouldn't bet on anything with a moving barrel beating a vintage S&W revolver or an older Python. Anyway, four of the five P210s that have test targets managed groups of less than 1.5" at 50 meters (~55 yards), and three of those four were right around 1" at that distance, so they still fare pretty well.

[AustinTX]

Sig Sauer P210 Legend Target made in Germany, and it's 25 meters, same accuracy as the older versions that have the funky magazine release and are apt to hammer-bite.

The new P210s are excellent guns, but they're really not in the same universe as the Swiss models. Distinctly lesser materials in every respect put together with significantly looser tolerances. Sig (Sauer) makes a healthy profit off of the new P210s. Producing the P210 to the standard of the old Swiss guns would be uneconomical today -- which is why they stopped making them in the first place.

[JeffK]

People who own the old swiss guns often say that, especially if they're swiss or have swiss heritage (there's an ancient rivalry there, who can build the most ridiculously complicated machine) and own several, people who own both pretty uniformly say they're all just as good, digging around the reviews. One internal difference I'm aware of is the recoil spring guide, the new versions have a screw-on end piece to capture the spring, the old versions have the end piece precisely pinned in place by a hidden pin - which is a gratuitously expensive and complicated way to hold something with no performance advantage. I mean it's kinda neat, you imagine some old swiss craftsman lovingly grinding away, but you're paying a lot for that effort that has no impact. It's Alpa vs. Nikon. Meanwhile you have to live with the hammer bite and the funky magazine release, things that do impact performance in use.

In any case the grouping on my Legend is 1" maximum hole-to-hole separation at 25 meters, which is about the same. Most of the holes are within a half-inch circle. That's hardly a different universe, and if we look at statistics we'll find they all perform about the same.

[Loupgarou]

I can't complain about the accuracy of any handgun in my collection, but my H&K P7M8, although not my favorite gun and not my carry piece, has to be the most accurate of the ones I own.

[AustinTX]

People who own the old swiss guns often say that, especially if they're swiss or have swiss heritage (there's an ancient rivalry there, who can build the most ridiculously complicated machine) and own several

I acquired every single one of my Swiss P210s after the Legend became available, and the Germanic portion of my heritage traces to Bavaria, so none of these cultural / ethnic / psychological motivations apply to me. Unlike apparently many Legend owners, I have no psychological need to believe my guns are better than they actually are. If I wanted the Legend, I would buy one or more (and probably will down the line anyway, for the sake of having examples representative of the P210's entire heritage).

people who own both pretty uniformly say they're all just as good, digging around the reviews.

I've read plenty of reviews that say otherwise, but I'm not really concerned with lay opinion anyway. Your average gun owner could not tell any difference in build quality between a Dan Wasson Valor and a Wilson CQB, between a 1955 Python and a 1972 Python, or between a Les Baer SRP with the accuracy guarantee option and one without that shoots groups one inch larger at 50 yards. The German P210 is a truly excellent gun, so the things that make it nonetheless significantly inferior to the Swiss versions are, with some exceptions, not going to be apparent to the naked eye or to the average competent shooter.

You won't be able to tell from looking at the guns that the Swiss P210s are made with a significantly harder and tougher steel alloy than the Legends. You won't be able to tell that the heat treatment process applied to the Swiss P210s would make Sig Sauer lose money on the guns if it were applied to the Legend. You won't be able to tell from eyeballing the gun or putting a few boxes of ammo through it that Swiss P210 barrels will shoot ~120,000 rounds before accuracy begins to decline (which is a good part of why unfired Swiss P210 barrels fetch up to $1,500 currently) versus ~40-50,000 rounds for Legend barrels. You probably won't notice the little things either, like the fact that the Swiss models' recoil springs were made of such a high quality of wire that they never need to be replaced (there are a number of Swiss P210s with 250,000+ rounds through them on the original springs, and the springs' specs remain the same) whereas the Legend's are made of the much cheaper standard stuff and will need to be replaced several times for a gun shot with great frequency, as with a dedicated competitive shooter's gun.

There are some important advantages of the Swiss models that are plainly evident, however. For one example, Legend's trigger action, encumbered by a passive firing pin safety, will never be as outstanding as those of the Swiss P210s. More importantly, and as discussed below, the Legends are in fact significantly less accurate on average than the Swiss guns.

One internal difference I'm aware of is the recoil spring guide, the new versions have a screw-on end piece to capture the spring, the old versions have the end piece precisely pinned in place by a hidden pin - which is a gratuitously expensive and complicated way to hold something with no performance advantage. I mean it's kinda neat, you imagine some old swiss craftsman lovingly grinding away, but you're paying a lot for that effort that has no impact.

Yes, there is no doubt that you pay for craftsmanship that does not impact performance with a Swiss P210. No question. There's no functional reason to have non-contact portions of the slide and frame interiors better finished than the exterior of most of today's highly regarded pistols (which, incredibly, is the case even with the issued Swiss Army pistols!). The same could be said for some of the different years of the Python (or a number of other highly refined handguns).

But you also pay for craftsmanship and materials that do affect performance and longevity and that you won't detect just by eyeballing the guns, as discussed above. I will readily concede that most of us would never be able to perceive or exploit most of the advantages of the Swiss models over the German ones -- but that doesn't mean they're nonexistent. If you feel like paying for the advantages of the Swiss models is only personally justifiable if you can shoot well enough to take advantage of the accuracy difference or often enough to avail yourself of the difference in longevity, then the Legend is probably the way to go. If you buy some of your guns for different reasons, such as collectibility or simple appreciation of superior craftsmanship, or if you are in fact one of the rare birds who can personally exploit the Swiss P210's advantages, then those models start to make more sense.

Meanwhile you have to live with the hammer bite and the funky magazine release, things that do impact performance in use.

Very true, but if you're good enough to compete at a high level with a P210 (i.e., care about tenths of a second in performance), you will gladly pay a small amount for one of RoCo's superbly machined screw-on steel beavertails, and you might even customize the mag release -- though many Europeans apparently prefer the heel setup in competition, as hard as that is to believe -- in order to retain the accuracy and durability advantages of the Swiss models.

I buy the Swiss guns to enjoy the pinnacle of excellence in craftsmanship in a production semi-automatic pistol, not to compete, so things like the extremely unergonomic safety and the cumbersome heel release don't bother me. And despite those inconveniences, the best European shooters who use the P210 continue to buy, customize, and use the Swiss P210s.

In any case the grouping on my Legend is 1" maximum hole-to-hole separation at 25 meters, which is about the same. Most of the holes are within a half-inch circle. That's hardly a different universe, and if we look at statistics we'll find they all perform about the same.

Then you have one of the more accurate Legends. The problem is that there are also plenty of Legends shooting groups that would have disqualified a Swiss P210 from ever leaving the Neuhausen factory. While the Legend is a superb gun, it simply isn't produced with the same consistency of measurements that characterized Neuhausen production. You can speak with Roland Croes of RoCo, who is undoubtedly the most technically knowledgeable P210 acquirer / seller / gunsmith / customizer in the US, and probably in the world, and he will tell you about the average accuracy differences between the German and Swiss guns based on his experience with hundreds of each of them. Due to what I'm guessing are his connections or privileges from his long association with SIG and SIG Sauer, he is able to cull some of the best German P210 models from imported lots (or was, prior to the import ban), and it's only these cream-of-the-crop examples that shoot as accurately as the Swiss P210s.

[vkeith]

My most accurate handgun is easily my Trailside. Unfortunately, as I have aged, my eyesight has grown so bad that I can't even hope to match the factory target without magnified optics and a bench rest.



Five shots at 25 meters. Four of them in just over 1/4" and with the fifth at 5/8"

[passtime]

I am the most accurate with my Ruger SR45 using my handloads. I shot this 12" target at 25 yards using the irons. The SR45 is more accurate than I am. lol

[volkstrm]

Well for me that's hard to say but I think I would have to say its my CZ,SP01. (9mm)

[Stevie-Ray]

My T/C Contender Super 14 in .30-30

[Brian48]

My Gold Cup in 45acp.

[cougar gt-e]

With my eyes and shaky old paws, nothing is more accurate than "minute of barn" anymore.

But the most accurate is an early colt woodsman. Not in the class of some, but pretty good.

[Tactical Jackalope]

1911's and my P226. Factory.

My Glock 41 with the full pyramid. Obviously modified.

[SauerGrapes]

The one I have in my hand any given time.

[JeffK]

I've read plenty of reviews that say otherwise, but I'm not really concerned with lay opinion anyway.

I'm much more interested in real data than opinions and hearsay, "lay" or otherwise. I have no reason to believe the following from my Legend Target is any better or worse than average, and in fact statistically it's probably average, but it's a data point. Statistically speaking, the radial standard deviation is better than an arcminute.

rangetest.jpg
p210plot.jpg

There are other tests (like http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5902/img3651h.jpg, http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armsl...ig_p21_640.jpg, http://prebanarmory.com/wp-content/u...s/p210_set.jpg, http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/r...psd3187e70.jpg, etc.) you can find on the internet, that appear comparable. I'd be curious to see how well an average assortment of older P210s can do. Not the very best-ever P210, or a selection of some of the best, but an average assortment.