1911 trigger carry condition

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by hammer58

I think the solution to my worry is that I didn't know it is less safe at half cocked. Someone may have already answered this but what is the purpose of the half cocked position?

Bob Hunter nailed it in his post #23. (Not surprising, considering that he's a top-notch 1911 gunsmith with many years experience.) Think of it not so much as a "safety" as a "fail safe."

[boondocker385]

Cocked and locked. And skip the ambidextrous safety.... the way it was designed to be carried. Half cocked is a horrible idea.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Hunter Customs

I do carry my 1911's in condition 1, did so in Vietnam and still do to date.
I've carried in holsters and "Mexican" carried and have never had a thumb safety dis-engage from the slide lock position.
[/url]

Having not served in the military, this question has always been on my mind. How did our soldiers carry in condition 1?

I have a GI .45 acp and a GI flap holster. I simply can't close the flap if the hammer is cocked.

I read that they were supposed to carry in condition 3. That makes sense for the flap. As action was immanent they would draw and rack to chamber, and thumb safety on. But then they would have to hold the pistol in their hands. They couldn't reholster as the flap wouldn't close.

What if they needed to holster the pistol? They would have to lower the hammer. In the field I think mostly likely they would manually decock and start carrying condition 2.

Now what would they do if the situation became hot again? They drew the pistol. But did they rack again to lose a round? Maybe if the action was really immanent. Or they just cocked the hammer and opened the slide a little to confirm a round in the chamber.

Only when the situation cooled down completely did they take the time to drop the mag and eject the chambered round, and put the pistol back in condition 3.

It seems the thumb safety was never on when the gun was carried in holster. It was on only when it was being held in hand.

That is my answer to my own question. Please correct me if your first hand experience in the military was otherwise.

Half cock notch was used as safety by some lefties. It wasn't ideal but it was the best they could improvise. Did they have left hand holsters back then?

-TL

[RX-79G]

Half cock notch is just as stupid for lefties as righties. The damn gun was designed for Condition 2, and that's an incredibly safe way to carry the gun, once you get the hammer down.

How did our soldiers carry in condition 1?

I have a GI .45 acp and a GI flap holster. I simply can't close the flap if the hammer is cocked.

What an extremely interesting question.

[kcub]

Since John Moss Browning did not write the military field manual, how did he carry? Seems like that would be the definitive answer as to how "the gun was designed to be carried".

[rcp1936]

From what I read on other sites J M BROWNING built the gun the way the government wanted for use by a cavalryman
The question should be what the military intended
And if differed once the horses weren't used

[tangolima]

Condition 1 is safe and appropriate for civilian carry, if a correct holster is used and the carrier is trained accordingly. I believe that.

Condition 2 is as safe as condition 1. There are 2 issues with it though. Manual decocking is risky. If the hammer slips the carrier is almost sure to lose a thumb to the slide. That's assuming he points the gun to a safe direction. I attended a hand gun training class. We were taught not to manually decock with a chambered round. The 2nd issue is that it is not as efficient as condition 1. Flipping the safety off is faster than cocking the hammer.

If I carry, it would be either condition 1 or 3.

-TL

[Hunter Customs]

Having not served in the military, this question has always been on my mind. How did our soldiers carry in condition 1?

To answer that question, as for regulations what's done in a war zone is different then what's done state side.

In Vietnam the flap holster was just another piece of the TA50 gear we were issued that many did not use and it was placed in the pile with the 5 buckle overshoes and other gear.

Now I'm not speaking for everyone, just my own personal experience and many that served in my unit.

When I was state side military it was flap holsters and condition 3, I also do not recall any imminent threats state side.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[Hunter Customs]

As for lowering the hammer on a live round I highly advise against this.

However if one feels they must carry this way then get an original 1911 hammer to put in your gun if it don't have one.

The reason for this is the original 1911 hammer has a wide pad on the hammer spur where as the 1911A1 does not.

The wide pad makes it easier to pinch the spur when lowering the hammer plus the 1911 hammer has a more rounded pad making the hammer easier to thumb cock one handed.

Also keep in mind the 1911 had a much shorter grip safety spur so it would not interfere with cocking the wider hammer.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[kcub]

Also extended beavertails don't work with condition 2, cocking or decocking. Maybe that is saying the same thing differently.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Hunter Customs

In Vietnam the flap holster was just another piece of the TA50 gear we were issued that many did not use and it was placed in the pile with the 5 buckle overshoes and other gear.

Thanks for clarifying, and thanks for your service to our country.

So in Vietnam you just replaced the flap holster with your own? I wonder whether the marines in wwii did the same when they were fighting the Japanese in the jungle.

-TL

[RX-79G]

Growing up I was a Vietnam buff, and had a lot of books on the subject - especially about LRRPs, SEALs, MACVSOG, Green Berets, etc.


For as widespread as we are frequently given to believe that US soldiers have carried their 1911s condition 1, I have never seen a photograph of a 1911 carried by foot soldier in any way but a flap holster, with the exception of this somewhat famous Green Beret image:

That's an old M3, rather than the M7 issued at the time. The 1911 is hammer down - condition 2 or 3.

There are many websites just dedicated to Vietnam and other era's gear photographs, but I wasn't able to find anything after quite a few searches. Plenty of photos of revolvers in M7 holsters, even a few of SEAL hushpuppy holsters. I searched for Vietnam and shoulder holster, holster, 1911, 1911A1, sidearm, .45.

I'm certain Bob is telling the truth, but is such a practice has been so rare that it has never made it onto a photograph? And if so rare, is it worth talking about?


If anyone has such a photograph, it would be really cool to post it.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by kcub

Since John Moss Browning did not write the military field manual, how did he carry? Seems like that would be the definitive answer as to how "the gun was designed to be carried".

Browning originally designed the pistol (as the 1910 prototype) without a thumb safety. That was added at the request of the Ordinance Department, to keep the cavalry happy. Keep in mind that Browning didn't design the 1911 for himself. He designed it as a contract designer on behalf of Colt, to meet the requirements set forth by the United State Ordnance Department.

[Hunter Customs]

RX-79G, the photo you posted must be very early days in Vietnam.
Where I was at no one would flash rank insignia so boldly.

tangolima, I recall some tanker holsters being used but many of the guys I knew carried their 1911A1 like I learned to carry mine, cocked, locked and stuffed in the waist band of their trousers.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[RX-79G]

tangolima, I recall some tanker holsters being used but many of the guys I knew carried their 1911A1 like I learned to carry mine, cocked, locked and stuffed in the waist band of their trousers.

Under their fatigue jackets and web gear?

[tangolima]

Very interesting. Thanks.

-TL

[45Gunner]

As far as the grip safeties go, you had better be paying attention to them, and checking them on a regular basis. Dont trust them just because they are there. Ive owned a couple of 1911's that came from the factory with non functioning grip safeties. Had a few others that had issues, and in both directions.

In my limited experience, I discovered that grip safeties fail because of the seer spring not properly installed or a failure of the spring altogether. Each time you clean the pistol, it should be function checked, at the very least. To be really diligent, function check it before shooting it at the range. A 1911 is my EDC gun. Each time I put 'er on, I remove the mag and the chambered round, do a function check, replace the mag, rechamber, do a press check, set the thumb safety and holster.

I carried a 1911 in Vietnam. I wore a holster as shown in a previous post. It was known as a Helicopter Pilot's Holster. The gun was always in Condition 1.

[tangolima]

The leaf spring has 3 prongs. From the shooter's perspective, trigger on the left, sear in the middle, grip safety on the right. By "seer spring" you must mean the whole leaf spring, instead of the middle prong. The middle sear spring really has nothing to do with the grip safety.

Back to the carry condition discussion. I can't help chewing on the new findings. If most soldiers carried in condition 1, they must either wear shoulder holsters or tack the pistol under their waist bands. The flap holsters hanging on pistol belts must be a rare scene. That is just too much a contrary to what I have seen in photos and documentary footages. I guess I need more research on that.

Thanks for your input and your service.

-TL

[RX-79G]

The photo I posted is of the M3 holster, replaced by Vietnam by the M7. I believe both were originally designed for tankers, but they are useful for others. The don't work great with the H harness web gear the majority of soldiers in Vietnam and earlier wore to carry ammo, water and other gear.

Waistband carry also doesn't work very well with a harness and the tropical fatigue shirt. I have a hard time imagining that the speed advantage of Condition 1 means much when you have to get up under your fatigue jacket and harness to get at the gun. Condition 2 in the readily available flap holster would be quicker, and less rusty.

[tangolima]

I agree.

M3 and M7 are for tankers and pilots, or whoever needs to draw the pistol while sitting down or in cramped space, where access to flap holster is restricted. If I were there and wearing a shoulder holster, I would have carried in condition 1. Otherwise I would carry in condition 3, or condition 2 if had to, in a flap holster, instead of condition 1 under waist band.

I wish I know more Vietnam vets to gather more data points. I only know 2. One was a marine radio man, and the other in the brown water navy. None of them were ground pounders in the jungle.

-TL

[Kreyzhorse]

As mentioned prior, half cock is not a safer option. Especially when you have to lower the hammer over a live round.

A proper holster will also add security to your carry. Mine has a retention strap that passes between the cocked hammer firing pin.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by tangolime

If I were there and wearing a shoulder holster, I would have carried in condition 1. Otherwise I would carry in condition 3, or condition 2 if had to, in a flap holster, instead of condition 1 under waist band.

I wish I know more Vietnam vets to gather more data points. I only know 2. One was a marine radio man, and the other in the brown water navy. None of them were ground pounders in the jungle.

You weren't there, and we have already heard from two forum members who were there just in this discussion thread. Both have said the M1911A1s were carried in tanker/pilot holsters, in Condition 1.

I was also there. However, my unit wasn't authorized sidearms, only M16s, so I can't really add much to the discussion. I know some of our guys had shotguns sent from home for walking point on patrol, but I didn't encounter anyone who managed to get an M1911A1 that wasn't on the unit's TOE.

I also agree that the photo of the captain must have been VERY early in Vietnam, when Americans were there only in limited numbers as advisors. I was there through most of 1968. Even then (which was still comparatively early) all insignia and unit patches were black on OD. Rank was always a small, black pin on the collar. The name tag and US Army tags were sewn on, but were likewise black lettering on an OD tape.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I was also there. However, my unit wasn't authorized sidearms, only M16s, so I can't really add much to the discussion. I know some of our guys had shotguns sent from home for walking point on patrol, but I didn't encounter anyone who managed to get an M1911A1 that wasn't on the unit's TOE.

What about your officers and NCOs? Did they have sidearms? They had shoulder holsters?

I wasn't there, and what I learned is from photos, documentaries, or even movies. I love to know more from guys who went there.

Thanks for your input and your service!

-TL

[44 AMP]

... when the thumb safety is inadvertently knocked off, and you attempt to handle or holster a 1911, the grip safety is normally depressed, unless you make a conscious effort to not engage it, so your basically left with a fairly light trigger that is easily tripped by something entering the trigger guard, be it a finger, clothing, piece of the holster, etc.

Well, yes. If you do, and or allow all the wrong things, then you are left only with the limitations of the mechanism. That is true for everything.

Browning was a genius, but he even he was not able to create a pistol that would be perfectly safe no matter what men did. No one can.

As already mentioned, Browning added the thumb safety (known in military manuals as the "safety lock"), because of the concerns of the cavalry. They were worried about a trooper trying to reholster a cocked pistol, while also having to handle a horse.

Browning left no journal or notes about how he intended the pistol to be carried. All this "designed to be..." is modern supposition.

Likewise is the idea that the military requirements for carry are based on personal safety. They are not. They are based on the safety of the service, as a whole.

Empty chamber is the best, and safest thing, when you have thousands of young men, usually under trained, handling and carrying loaded weapons. It is NOT the best choice for personal defensive carry. You and I are responsible for ourselves. If we have an accident, we pay. Carry in uniform is a much different matter.

If Plaxico had been carrying a 1911 in his shorts, and the safety was "somehow" knocked off, do you suppose the result would have been any different than it was with the Glock?

yes, I think it could have been different. No one, (probably including him) knows if he grabbed the gun in such a way that it would have depressed the 1911 grip safety AND pulled the trigger. All we know is that the trigger was pulled. With the Glock, it could not have been different. With a 1911, safety off, it might have been. It might not have been. There is simply no way to know.

Personally, while the 1911 system can be defeated, I think the levels of redundancy built in make it safer overall than many other, more "modern" designs.

[kcub]

I love the look of that tanker holster. I wonder if anyone makes something similar for a lefty. I could see using it for my 10mm hog or deer hunting.