New to me first gen Colt Bilsey questions

maikell77 · April 3, 2012, 07:59 AM

My grandfather gave me his old colt revolver. It's 45 colt caliber. I have given it a light cleaning and it has good barrel to cylinder alignment, locks up good and tight and has a crisp trigger pull. The finish is gone and there is some pitting on the outside.

The questions I have:

- Any recomendations as to a light load I could fire through this gun?
- What would it run to refinish the gun? (I'll try to post pictures tonight to show the extent of the pitting)

I realize that these guns can be worth a good bit, but with the worn off finish and pitting I know this doesn't have too much value. Doesn't really matter I have no plans to sell I would just like to clean it up and have it as a shooter I can pass down someday.

Willie Sutton · April 3, 2012, 08:40 AM

(1) refinishing it would ruin it's value COMPLETELY. You are far better off with NO original finish than with even the best refinish work. Truly. Those marks and scratches are the ones that your Grandfather and another few generations put on the gun. Revere them... don't remove them. hey are the signs of an honest life. Trust me on this, it would be a huge error to refinish it.

(2): Take it to a good gunsmith and get it checked out for safety. Likely it's just fine, but just make sure.

(3): These are relatively modern (note the term "relatively"), and ought to be safe to shoot. The loads I'd use would be what is now called "Cowboy Action Loads", which are reduced recoil (reduced pressure too) loads used in cowboy action shooting. They are available in many places over the counter these days. Easy by mail order to your house in any event. These loads will be respectful to the old gun and are fun and easy to shoot.

Use oil and a rag and nothing else to clean it up... don't remove the patina or anything else as you clean it. Please do not refinish it...

Willie

.

maikell77 · April 3, 2012, 09:02 AM

Point taken on refinishing. It has a nicely worn leather holster that fits the gun perfectly.

As far as cleaning yes, just oil and rag.

I had assumed cowboy load would be the way to go. Most of those, I have seen, are dirty and smoky, do you know of any that would be relatively clean?

Willie Sutton · April 3, 2012, 09:05 AM

Any of the smokeless powder loads for cowboy action will be as clean as any other modern smokeless load.

Black Powder loads (big smoke) are actually pretty darned hard to purchase, and are a real specialty item. You would have to search high and low for them and will pay a premium for them. Don't worry about buying them unknowingly..

I'd just go buy a box of any of the smokeless cowboy loads and have at it.

Willie

.

raveneap · April 3, 2012, 09:26 AM

Totally agree. Absolutely NO refinish - clean with oil & rag. That's a piece of history you have. Enjoy it.

gak · April 3, 2012, 10:20 AM

+1 agree 100% on the very good responses thus far. Check it out for safety/function but otherwise leave it alone in terms of doing anything irreversible. I'd think about replacing the (presumably) stock "gutta percha" hard rubber grips with repro of same that are available - and "antique" (smooth) to match the original/rest of the gun. (Other grips are available of course) - "premptively" if you plan on handling/shooting it a fair amount (and save your originals of course). Similarly, the mainspring on these old originals can be a bit stiff and I'd consider replacing it--rather than risk breaking the original regardless, but keeping it in safekeeping..

maikell77 · April 3, 2012, 11:28 AM

The grips appear to be original. They still have most of the cross hatching and the colt logo is still clear. One side does have a small chip but thats about is for wear. On the backside they have the last 4 digits of the serial number engraved by hand. Does anyone know if that is original to manufacture or something some gunsmith would have done in the past?

Willie Sutton · April 3, 2012, 11:46 AM

the engravings are likely an issue rack-number, meaning that it's likely this was a police or militia issue revolver at one time. Set in storage racks the inventory can be controlled by reading the numbers. it neither adds not detracts from the gun value, unless you can figure out who issued in, in which case it might add value.

I'd suggest writing Colt for a "Factory Letter" on this, which will give the date of manufacture and who it was first shipped to. In the pre-1968 era, many of these were sold directly to individuals or individual units, as well as to retailers and distributors. Colt has very complete records and a full time staff doing research for a very nominal fee. It would be a huge benefit to take advantage of this. You might very well find out the original purchaser was an individual or a local agency of some sort.

I'd second the idea of removing and then carefully storing the original grips and spring after replacement with quality reproductions if you plan to shoot it a lot. For casual and irregular use, with care, they are probably OK. The grips are the more sensitive of the two, and the easiest to change out. Really, even a replacement mainspring is not going to affect value if it breaks.. start with the grips. Gutta Percha was a very early type of rubber-based hard material of the pre-plastic era, and gets very brittle and breaks with even careful use. Often times they just degrade into fragments in storage, a common problem with old rubber items.

Willie

.

RickB · April 3, 2012, 03:22 PM

It should probably be shot only with black powder ammo, if it was manufactured prior to WWI. Even some of the guns with the so-called "smokeless frame" were made years before Colt warranted their guns for smokeless powder use. It's not only the peak pressure, but the pressure curve that differs between black and smokeless powders. I have a 1st Generation Frontier Six Shooter, and though I put some factory loads through it, 20 years ago, on the rare occasions that I do shoot it, it's now black powder only.

gunsmokeTPF · April 3, 2012, 04:40 PM

If in a rush for the Colt letter you can call them on the phone to speed things up a couple of months. When I checked out my Bisley a number of years ago the fee for a SAA, which is actually the category the Bisley ser# range falls within, was $100. They charged an additional $50 for any model like the Bisley, engraved, or had historical significance. You never know where those old guns have been. You could be sitting on a treasure. They also charged an extra $50 for giving you the info over the phone, once you gave them your credit card# of course. You'll get the letter within 2 weeks, but check current fees. I just did it last year for a Kornbrath engraved Colt Officer's Model Target HB made in '38 for $175.

My Bisley was, as far as I know, the only one that was factory converted to a SAA by machining the rare of the frame and replacing the grip strap and trigger guard and hammer from a SAA mfg. in 1904. It was made in 1906. I do have a slightly fuzzy photo in my computer taken by my cousin, but only know how to attach it to an email. On the internet you can check out an article from the October 2007 American Rifleman written by Gary Johnston, regarding John Wayne's SAA, which was also a converted Bisley. His Bisley was converted by someone unknown, but mine had Colt's 3 digit #'s on various parts of the gun to prevent putting the gun back together from parts of another gun. Colt expert John Kopec advised me about my gun.

I spoke to Mr. Johnston a couple of weeks ago about it and told him if in the future if he wanted to do a followup article on the converted Bisley I'd be more than happy to assist him with mine. When he saw my photo he thought maybe it was a SAA with a replaced Bisley barrel, which was common. But I told him I had the letter from Colt that it was in fact born a Bisley. He said the only other example he knew of was Elmer Keith's conversions where he attached a Bisley back strap to his guns, but it isn't the same.

Anyway, careful with the grips on yours and under no condition even think of touching it's finish. If you don't want to screw it up then stay away from black powder. That's nasty stuff, though fun to shoot. Ist generation SA's prior to approx ser#165,000 were black powder frames made of cast iron, which most people don't realize and not steel. Smokeless in those frames at the very least caused numerous cracks. If there's a stamped triangle with VP on the left side of your trigger guard, that means that Colt gave a warranty for smokeless powder, which was in around 1901 at ser#192,000. It took them a long time to do it. Let a gunsmith check it out for you and if it's in good condition there's no reason for you not to use moderate factory loads. Those Bisleys are under valued, but going up in price. Don't let anyone snooker you out of it. Take care of it and good luck.

James K · April 3, 2012, 08:44 PM

The numbers inside the grips are from the factory. When those guns were made, the grips were fitted to the the frame before final polishing and bluing, and polished down with the frame. Then they were numbered to be sure the fitted grips got back with the right gun after final polish and blue.

If you choose to replace the old (and posibly brittle) grips with modern ones for shooting, make sure you don't lose the originals.

Jim

April 3, 2012, 09:26 AM	#5
raveneap Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2005 Location: Maine Posts: 229	Totally agree. Absolutely NO refinish - clean with oil & rag. That's a piece of history you have. Enjoy it. __________________ ... ed ... -- MAINE -- The Way Life Should Be NRA/C&R/CCW

April 3, 2012, 04:40 PM	#10
gunsmokeTPF Junior member Join Date: February 14, 2012 Posts: 268	If in a rush for the Colt letter you can call them on the phone to speed things up a couple of months. When I checked out my Bisley a number of years ago the fee for a SAA, which is actually the category the Bisley ser# range falls within, was $100. They charged an additional $50 for any model like the Bisley, engraved, or had historical significance. You never know where those old guns have been. You could be sitting on a treasure. They also charged an extra $50 for giving you the info over the phone, once you gave them your credit card# of course. You'll get the letter within 2 weeks, but check current fees. I just did it last year for a Kornbrath engraved Colt Officer's Model Target HB made in '38 for $175. My Bisley was, as far as I know, the only one that was factory converted to a SAA by machining the rare of the frame and replacing the grip strap and trigger guard and hammer from a SAA mfg. in 1904. It was made in 1906. I do have a slightly fuzzy photo in my computer taken by my cousin, but only know how to attach it to an email. On the internet you can check out an article from the October 2007 American Rifleman written by Gary Johnston, regarding John Wayne's SAA, which was also a converted Bisley. His Bisley was converted by someone unknown, but mine had Colt's 3 digit #'s on various parts of the gun to prevent putting the gun back together from parts of another gun. Colt expert John Kopec advised me about my gun. I spoke to Mr. Johnston a couple of weeks ago about it and told him if in the future if he wanted to do a followup article on the converted Bisley I'd be more than happy to assist him with mine. When he saw my photo he thought maybe it was a SAA with a replaced Bisley barrel, which was common. But I told him I had the letter from Colt that it was in fact born a Bisley. He said the only other example he knew of was Elmer Keith's conversions where he attached a Bisley back strap to his guns, but it isn't the same. Anyway, careful with the grips on yours and under no condition even think of touching it's finish. If you don't want to screw it up then stay away from black powder. That's nasty stuff, though fun to shoot. Ist generation SA's prior to approx ser#165,000 were black powder frames made of cast iron, which most people don't realize and not steel. Smokeless in those frames at the very least caused numerous cracks. If there's a stamped triangle with VP on the left side of your trigger guard, that means that Colt gave a warranty for smokeless powder, which was in around 1901 at ser#192,000. It took them a long time to do it. Let a gunsmith check it out for you and if it's in good condition there's no reason for you not to use moderate factory loads. Those Bisleys are under valued, but going up in price. Don't let anyone snooker you out of it. Take care of it and good luck. Last edited by gunsmokeTPF; April 3, 2012 at 05:15 PM.

April 3, 2012, 07:59 AM	#1
maikell77 Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2007 Location: Columbus, IN Posts: 116	New to me first gen Colt Bilsey questions My grandfather gave me his old colt revolver. It's 45 colt caliber. I have given it a light cleaning and it has good barrel to cylinder alignment, locks up good and tight and has a crisp trigger pull. The finish is gone and there is some pitting on the outside. The questions I have: - Any recomendations as to a light load I could fire through this gun? - What would it run to refinish the gun? (I'll try to post pictures tonight to show the extent of the pitting) I realize that these guns can be worth a good bit, but with the worn off finish and pitting I know this doesn't have too much value. Doesn't really matter I have no plans to sell I would just like to clean it up and have it as a shooter I can pass down someday.

April 3, 2012, 08:40 AM	#2
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	(1) refinishing it would ruin it's value COMPLETELY. You are far better off with NO original finish than with even the best refinish work. Truly. Those marks and scratches are the ones that your Grandfather and another few generations put on the gun. Revere them... don't remove them. hey are the signs of an honest life. Trust me on this, it would be a huge error to refinish it. (2): Take it to a good gunsmith and get it checked out for safety. Likely it's just fine, but just make sure. (3): These are relatively modern (note the term "relatively"), and ought to be safe to shoot. The loads I'd use would be what is now called "Cowboy Action Loads", which are reduced recoil (reduced pressure too) loads used in cowboy action shooting. They are available in many places over the counter these days. Easy by mail order to your house in any event. These loads will be respectful to the old gun and are fun and easy to shoot. Use oil and a rag and nothing else to clean it up... don't remove the patina or anything else as you clean it. Please do not refinish it... Willie .

April 3, 2012, 09:02 AM	#3
maikell77 Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2007 Location: Columbus, IN Posts: 116	Point taken on refinishing. It has a nicely worn leather holster that fits the gun perfectly. As far as cleaning yes, just oil and rag. I had assumed cowboy load would be the way to go. Most of those, I have seen, are dirty and smoky, do you know of any that would be relatively clean?

April 3, 2012, 09:05 AM	#4
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	Any of the smokeless powder loads for cowboy action will be as clean as any other modern smokeless load. Black Powder loads (big smoke) are actually pretty darned hard to purchase, and are a real specialty item. You would have to search high and low for them and will pay a premium for them. Don't worry about buying them unknowingly.. I'd just go buy a box of any of the smokeless cowboy loads and have at it. Willie .

April 3, 2012, 10:20 AM	#6
gak Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2005 Location: Aridzona Posts: 2,767	+1 agree 100% on the very good responses thus far. Check it out for safety/function but otherwise leave it alone in terms of doing anything irreversible. I'd think about replacing the (presumably) stock "gutta percha" hard rubber grips with repro of same that are available - and "antique" (smooth) to match the original/rest of the gun. (Other grips are available of course) - "premptively" if you plan on handling/shooting it a fair amount (and save your originals of course). Similarly, the mainspring on these old originals can be a bit stiff and I'd consider replacing it--rather than risk breaking the original regardless, but keeping it in safekeeping..

April 3, 2012, 11:28 AM	#7
maikell77 Senior Member Join Date: June 2, 2007 Location: Columbus, IN Posts: 116	The grips appear to be original. They still have most of the cross hatching and the colt logo is still clear. One side does have a small chip but thats about is for wear. On the backside they have the last 4 digits of the serial number engraved by hand. Does anyone know if that is original to manufacture or something some gunsmith would have done in the past?

April 3, 2012, 11:46 AM	#8
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	the engravings are likely an issue rack-number, meaning that it's likely this was a police or militia issue revolver at one time. Set in storage racks the inventory can be controlled by reading the numbers. it neither adds not detracts from the gun value, unless you can figure out who issued in, in which case it might add value. I'd suggest writing Colt for a "Factory Letter" on this, which will give the date of manufacture and who it was first shipped to. In the pre-1968 era, many of these were sold directly to individuals or individual units, as well as to retailers and distributors. Colt has very complete records and a full time staff doing research for a very nominal fee. It would be a huge benefit to take advantage of this. You might very well find out the original purchaser was an individual or a local agency of some sort. I'd second the idea of removing and then carefully storing the original grips and spring after replacement with quality reproductions if you plan to shoot it a lot. For casual and irregular use, with care, they are probably OK. The grips are the more sensitive of the two, and the easiest to change out. Really, even a replacement mainspring is not going to affect value if it breaks.. start with the grips. Gutta Percha was a very early type of rubber-based hard material of the pre-plastic era, and gets very brittle and breaks with even careful use. Often times they just degrade into fragments in storage, a common problem with old rubber items. Willie .

April 3, 2012, 03:22 PM	#9
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	It should probably be shot only with black powder ammo, if it was manufactured prior to WWI. Even some of the guns with the so-called "smokeless frame" were made years before Colt warranted their guns for smokeless powder use. It's not only the peak pressure, but the pressure curve that differs between black and smokeless powders. I have a 1st Generation Frontier Six Shooter, and though I put some factory loads through it, 20 years ago, on the rare occasions that I do shoot it, it's now black powder only.

April 3, 2012, 08:44 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The numbers inside the grips are from the factory. When those guns were made, the grips were fitted to the the frame before final polishing and bluing, and polished down with the frame. Then they were numbered to be sure the fitted grips got back with the right gun after final polish and blue. If you choose to replace the old (and posibly brittle) grips with modern ones for shooting, make sure you don't lose the originals. Jim