AZ to Drop CCW Permit Requirement - Page 7

armoredman · April 11, 2010, 10:25 PM

Oooooh, Alaskan Amber....best beer ever....ONLY WHEN NOT CARRYING A FIREARM! Just got to throw that out there.

Back to topic, looking forward to bill movement tomorrow, signature by weeks end.

Mike In Charleston · April 12, 2010, 08:55 AM

Since this thread is so long I might have missed it but how many hand guns are manufactured in Arizona?

rickyjames · April 12, 2010, 09:57 AM

i live in phoenix. todays news headline, feelings mixed on new law requiring no license to cc. todays morning tv news, who is opposing the new law? some of the most vocal against the law are those that profit from cc classes. gun stores, cc instructors anyone that rides the cc class gravy train and stands to lose money by not making a cc license mandatory. i guess these 2nd amendment right advocates are 100% behind your gun rights as long as they can profit from them but when faced with losing revenue suddenly they become the judge and jury of who is qualified to carry and who is not. i don't remember anywhere in the 2nd amendment where it says someone has to profit from you and decide if you are qualified for your 2nd amendment rights. it makes me ill to see gun owners disagree on who is qualified to own and carry firearms based on how much money the stand to make or lose on your gun rights. have any of the "elite" instructors ever charged a person for a cc class and then failed them?

sonick808 · April 12, 2010, 10:16 AM

Gov. Brewer will sign it; she's got no reason not to.

NavyLT · April 12, 2010, 10:48 AM

+1 rickyjames, +1

geetarman · April 12, 2010, 10:55 AM

I live in Gilbert and I really do not have a dog in the fight. It looks like the law will be signed but once again I am not sure how good a law it will be.

Everyone has an opinion and I am as entitled to mine as anyone else. Those who illegally carry now will not be affected by this law one way or the other unless they do something stupid and get busted.

I do not think it will make as big a change as many seem to believe.

Personally, I took the class and profited from it. There was a lot of good information and I tried to absorb as much as I could.

I do not want to see the Second Amendment abridged but people do need to know the repercussions of an intended or unintended weapon discharge that hurts or kills someone.

The class gives you some insight to that. Those consequences are serious and they can bankrupt you.

People need to be aware just how serious this issue can be for the careless or unwary.

Geetarman

Daryl · April 12, 2010, 12:03 PM

Quote:

I live in Gilbert and I really do not have a dog in the fight. It looks like the law will be signed but once again I am not sure how good a law it will be.

Everyone has an opinion and I am as entitled to mine as anyone else. Those who illegally carry now will not be affected by this law one way or the other unless they do something stupid and get busted.

I do not think it will make as big a change as many seem to believe.

Personally, I took the class and profited from it. There was a lot of good information and I tried to absorb as much as I could.

I do not want to see the Second Amendment abridged but people do need to know the repercussions of an intended or unintended weapon discharge that hurts or kills someone.

The class gives you some insight to that. Those consequences are serious and they can bankrupt you.

People need to be aware just how serious this issue can be for the careless or unwary.

Geetarman

People SHOULD understand such things, and most people DO understand them. There's never been any doubt in my mind...

I took the CCW class as well; first in early 1995, then I renewed in 1999. I renewed again in 2003, and again in 2007. The renewal in 2007 was the first one that didn't require me to take a class and requalify with a handgun.

I don't think I've ever heard anything in a CCW class that I didn't already know. There were certainly things said in a class or two that raised questions in my mind, and that resulted in more study, and therefore better understanding of the subject on my part.

That said, I've learned more from exchanging information on the 'net. It works the same way, only in more diversified ways. More opinions, more questions asked, and therefore more study on more subjects for a better understanding.

Bear in mind that anyone who can legally own a gun can open carry in Arizona without any permits whatsoever. It's been that way since Arizona became a state in something like 1912. For that reason, it's really not a matter of people not knowing how to use a gun; those who can carry, and want to carry, already have the legal means to do so.

The only thing this law will/would change is the WAY people without permits can carry in places where they can already legally carry. A handgun in open sight is little different than a handgun with a jacket covering it IMO, yet the latter will get you arrested, and possibly cause the loss of your firearms rights if you don't have a CCW permit.

The blood has never really ran in Arizona streets with legal open carry, and I don't see that changing if someone's allowed to wear a jacket or shirt over their handgun to keep things more "discrete".

This law will not make any difference whatsoever in my life and means of carry. My wife and I both have valid Az CCW permits, and we'll maintain those regardless of this law. I'm very pro-rights, however, and I see absolutely no reason for not allowing law abiding citizens their full constitutional right to keep AND bear arms.

Daryl

rickyjames · April 12, 2010, 12:54 PM

daryl +1

there is nothing they teach in a ccw course that is not available to you on your own thru the internet or free govt information. one day a month at the range will serve you better than a few rounds fired at a class. granted ccw classes can be informative specially if you have little or no firearms experience and IF you get a good teacher but they also get paid well for their efforts and don't want to lose that income. a few shots on a range does not qualify you as a marksman any more than a few hours in a ccw class qualify you as a lawyer but it can be time and money well spent. there are other advantages to a ccw permit, no backgroud check when buying a gun, reciprocity with some states, expanded areas you can carry so getting a ccw permit does have some advantages.

the point of my post wasn't the value of taking the class or the added benefits. it was the division between gun owners who supposedly believe in the second amendment. some instructors seem to think the 2nd amendment was put there to enrich instructors and they are very vocal they don't want to lose that right (income).

Al Norris · April 12, 2010, 01:50 PM

There is one thing that you may get in taking the class, that you won't get anywhere else.

Case law.

How it affects you, in regards to the statutes that your legislatures pass, may well be different than what you think the written text says. Not saying you will get this info, but if the class is good, the instructor is good, then you will benefit by knowing how the courts are interpreting the laws.

Something to ask about, if you decide to take CCW classes.

sonick808 · April 12, 2010, 02:11 PM

Arizonans:

Please call Governor Brewer TODAY and ask her to sign this bill! (SB 1108)

You can reach her office via tele here:

Telephone (602) 542-4331
Toll Free 1-(800) 253-0883
Fax (602) 542-1381

sonick808 · April 12, 2010, 02:13 PM

Mike in Charleston:

For starters, Ruger is located in Prescott, AZ

I'm sure others can pipe in with others, especially smaller shops

rickyjames · April 12, 2010, 02:51 PM

"There is one thing that you may get in taking the class, that you won't get anywhere else.

Case law."

firearms instructors are legal professors?

qcpunk · April 12, 2010, 03:14 PM

Sonick, called! Let's get this one passed!

Daryl · April 12, 2010, 05:27 PM

[

Quote:

firearms instructors are legal professors?

Nope, and if they were, the only thing they could tell you for certain about court is uncertainty. The SCUTUS justices thenselves seldom agree on a decision. All you get is some idea of what the law says, and how things MIGHT go in court under a certain circumstance. Even when using a tried case as an example, one never knows how that same case might have turned out with a different lawyer, and/or a different jury.

Once the shooting stops, it's up to the individual and his/her lawyer to convince the judge and jury.

Daryl

tet4 · April 12, 2010, 05:48 PM

rickyjames - feel free to post the names and companies of those gun stores and cc instructors that opposed the bill. They need to be corrected in a very short manner. :-)

BTW, I'm guessing that by not having a mandatory requirement for CC training, CC instructors and gun stores are not really going to loose out. CC instructors in general, if they are smart, should end up with a larger client list with more active training because people who seek them out will probably train more times and spend more money. There's nothing worse for an industry than for the government to set a bar on training. People will take the class and then have no reason to continue training. However, if people seek it out voluntarily, they will be more likely to be repeat customers - jmho.

snevel · April 12, 2010, 06:01 PM

Geetarman said:

"I do not think it will make as big a change as many seem to believe."

The biggest change is that people will no longer get in trouble for "innocent" violations of the concealed carry law...

For example:

My buddy Joe has his CCW. I don't. He's carrying in his car as we drive to the local range to shoot. We get stopped for some minor traffic violation. He's fine. *I* could be charged with a felony because I had "access" the the gun he has in the glove box or console.

The law changes this and will have similar effects in other situations.

Simeon

armoredman · April 12, 2010, 06:26 PM

Quote:

There is one thing that you may get in taking the class, that you won't get anywhere else.

Case law.

All the CCW classes I took in AZ, (I was class #10 in 1994), not one dealt with case law of any kind. We had The Arizona Gun Owners Guide, that was about it. First CCW class had a police officer who walked out in front of us and said, "It's your responsibility to know the law, have a nice day."
Now going to Lethal Force Institute, or Gunsite, or any other high dollar schools should give plenty of that, I would think, but I lack the $900 a week for those.

BTW,

Quote:

Originally Posted by azleg.gov

TRANSMITTED TO: GOVERNOR 04/12/10

sonick808 · April 12, 2010, 08:16 PM

right on qcpunk ! we have to beat back this final push by the alarmists

she's in DC but if she's back in time tomorrow, her schedule is wide open

wednesday is wide open too... check out her schedule pdf on her homepage

AZwarts · April 12, 2010, 09:29 PM

I love the idea that I do not have to go to special classes or pay any money to conceal but that liscence is a privelage and shows that you have been properly trained and certified to conceal a firearm. I do believe in order to obtain a CCW now, you must get cleared by the FBI or ATF. I have mixed feelings about this and haven't made up my mind.

There is lots of good information people might miss out on by not being required to take classes. A lot of folks are tought by some one who may or may not practice safe gun handling procedure...

gyvel · April 12, 2010, 10:15 PM

Quote:

There are no rights without responsibilities.

And, of course, we all know that EVERYBODY is responsible...

qcpunk · April 12, 2010, 10:53 PM

Armored, Agreed. CCW instructors do not teach Case Law in CCW class.

However, I think something here is getting over looked or lost in translation...

In the two CCW classes I have attended, much of the time spent sitting at desks was not talking about the good stuff; guns, ammo, gear. Instead, it was spent discussing interpretations of the laws that were written in the books at the time of class; WHEN is WHAT justified, What you still CANNOT do, and most importantly, What NOT to say after an incident.

Example: Do NOT proceed to tell the responding officer "Yeah, I never really liked the guy anyways" or Do NOT self incriminate yourself on the police report.

Instead, say "Sir, all I can say right now is that I FEARED FOR MY LIFE and did what I felt necessary. I respect what you're doing, but I would like to speak with my lawyer before we go any further."

Thoughts?

LOUcifer · April 13, 2010, 04:57 AM

Quote:

And, of course, we all know that EVERYBODY is responsible...

LOL...Exactly...because if that were truly the case than common sense would be just that...common...BUT only a daily basis it is proven over and over again by many different people that common sense is NOT so common

armoredman · April 15, 2010, 01:15 AM

I believe the term "common sense" is not so much a statement than a prayer.
Two days left.

sonick808 · April 15, 2010, 01:56 AM

i think she's probably thinking a LOT more about the immigration bill that just passed the house.....

she'll probably sign sb 1108 with little reservation at all

sonick808 · April 15, 2010, 04:12 PM

well, she signed a ton of bills yesterday, but sb 1108 wasn't one of them....

just called her again asking her to sign.

April 12, 2010, 09:57 AM	#153
rickyjames Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 558	i live in phoenix. todays news headline, feelings mixed on new law requiring no license to cc. todays morning tv news, who is opposing the new law? some of the most vocal against the law are those that profit from cc classes. gun stores, cc instructors anyone that rides the cc class gravy train and stands to lose money by not making a cc license mandatory. i guess these 2nd amendment right advocates are 100% behind your gun rights as long as they can profit from them but when faced with losing revenue suddenly they become the judge and jury of who is qualified to carry and who is not. i don't remember anywhere in the 2nd amendment where it says someone has to profit from you and decide if you are qualified for your 2nd amendment rights. it makes me ill to see gun owners disagree on who is qualified to own and carry firearms based on how much money the stand to make or lose on your gun rights. have any of the "elite" instructors ever charged a person for a cc class and then failed them? __________________ ya only got 1 arm and ya carry 3 guns for Christs sake. Well I don't want to get killed for lack of shooting back.

April 12, 2010, 12:54 PM	#158
rickyjames Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 558	daryl +1 there is nothing they teach in a ccw course that is not available to you on your own thru the internet or free govt information. one day a month at the range will serve you better than a few rounds fired at a class. granted ccw classes can be informative specially if you have little or no firearms experience and IF you get a good teacher but they also get paid well for their efforts and don't want to lose that income. a few shots on a range does not qualify you as a marksman any more than a few hours in a ccw class qualify you as a lawyer but it can be time and money well spent. there are other advantages to a ccw permit, no backgroud check when buying a gun, reciprocity with some states, expanded areas you can carry so getting a ccw permit does have some advantages. the point of my post wasn't the value of taking the class or the added benefits. it was the division between gun owners who supposedly believe in the second amendment. some instructors seem to think the 2nd amendment was put there to enrich instructors and they are very vocal they don't want to lose that right (income). __________________ ya only got 1 arm and ya carry 3 guns for Christs sake. Well I don't want to get killed for lack of shooting back.

April 12, 2010, 02:51 PM	#162
rickyjames Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 558	"There is one thing that you may get in taking the class, that you won't get anywhere else. Case law." firearms instructors are legal professors? __________________ ya only got 1 arm and ya carry 3 guns for Christs sake. Well I don't want to get killed for lack of shooting back.

April 12, 2010, 03:14 PM	#163
qcpunk Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Farmsville, AZ Posts: 305	Sonick, called! Let's get this one passed! __________________ "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." --Abraham Lincoln

April 12, 2010, 10:53 PM	#171
qcpunk Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Farmsville, AZ Posts: 305	Armored, Agreed. CCW instructors do not teach Case Law in CCW class. However, I think something here is getting over looked or lost in translation... In the two CCW classes I have attended, much of the time spent sitting at desks was not talking about the good stuff; guns, ammo, gear. Instead, it was spent discussing interpretations of the laws that were written in the books at the time of class; WHEN is WHAT justified, What you still CANNOT do, and most importantly, What NOT to say after an incident. Example: Do NOT proceed to tell the responding officer "Yeah, I never really liked the guy anyways" or Do NOT self incriminate yourself on the police report. Instead, say "Sir, all I can say right now is that I FEARED FOR MY LIFE and did what I felt necessary. I respect what you're doing, but I would like to speak with my lawyer before we go any further." Thoughts? __________________ "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." --Abraham Lincoln

April 11, 2010, 10:25 PM	#151
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	Oooooh, Alaskan Amber....best beer ever....ONLY WHEN NOT CARRYING A FIREARM! Just got to throw that out there. Back to topic, looking forward to bill movement tomorrow, signature by weeks end.

April 12, 2010, 08:55 AM	#152
Mike In Charleston Junior Member Join Date: August 21, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 13	Since this thread is so long I might have missed it but how many hand guns are manufactured in Arizona?

April 12, 2010, 10:16 AM	#154
sonick808 Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 396	Gov. Brewer will sign it; she's got no reason not to.

April 12, 2010, 10:48 AM	#155
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	+1 rickyjames, +1

April 12, 2010, 10:55 AM	#156
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	I live in Gilbert and I really do not have a dog in the fight. It looks like the law will be signed but once again I am not sure how good a law it will be. Everyone has an opinion and I am as entitled to mine as anyone else. Those who illegally carry now will not be affected by this law one way or the other unless they do something stupid and get busted. I do not think it will make as big a change as many seem to believe. Personally, I took the class and profited from it. There was a lot of good information and I tried to absorb as much as I could. I do not want to see the Second Amendment abridged but people do need to know the repercussions of an intended or unintended weapon discharge that hurts or kills someone. The class gives you some insight to that. Those consequences are serious and they can bankrupt you. People need to be aware just how serious this issue can be for the careless or unwary. Geetarman

April 12, 2010, 01:50 PM	#159
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	There is one thing that you may get in taking the class, that you won't get anywhere else. Case law. How it affects you, in regards to the statutes that your legislatures pass, may well be different than what you think the written text says. Not saying you will get this info, but if the class is good, the instructor is good, then you will benefit by knowing how the courts are interpreting the laws. Something to ask about, if you decide to take CCW classes.

April 12, 2010, 02:11 PM	#160
sonick808 Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 396	Arizonans: Please call Governor Brewer TODAY and ask her to sign this bill! (SB 1108) You can reach her office via tele here: Telephone (602) 542-4331 Toll Free 1-(800) 253-0883 Fax (602) 542-1381

April 12, 2010, 02:13 PM	#161
sonick808 Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 396	Mike in Charleston: For starters, Ruger is located in Prescott, AZ I'm sure others can pipe in with others, especially smaller shops

April 12, 2010, 05:48 PM	#165
tet4 Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2009 Posts: 232	rickyjames - feel free to post the names and companies of those gun stores and cc instructors that opposed the bill. They need to be corrected in a very short manner. :-) BTW, I'm guessing that by not having a mandatory requirement for CC training, CC instructors and gun stores are not really going to loose out. CC instructors in general, if they are smart, should end up with a larger client list with more active training because people who seek them out will probably train more times and spend more money. There's nothing worse for an industry than for the government to set a bar on training. People will take the class and then have no reason to continue training. However, if people seek it out voluntarily, they will be more likely to be repeat customers - jmho.

April 12, 2010, 06:01 PM	#166
snevel Junior Member Join Date: January 11, 2008 Posts: 12	Geetarman said: "I do not think it will make as big a change as many seem to believe." The biggest change is that people will no longer get in trouble for "innocent" violations of the concealed carry law... For example: My buddy Joe has his CCW. I don't. He's carrying in his car as we drive to the local range to shoot. We get stopped for some minor traffic violation. He's fine. I could be charged with a felony because I had "access" the the gun he has in the glove box or console. The law changes this and will have similar effects in other situations. Simeon

April 12, 2010, 08:16 PM	#168
sonick808 Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 396	right on qcpunk ! we have to beat back this final push by the alarmists she's in DC but if she's back in time tomorrow, her schedule is wide open wednesday is wide open too... check out her schedule pdf on her homepage

April 12, 2010, 09:29 PM	#169
AZwarts Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2009 Posts: 112	I love the idea that I do not have to go to special classes or pay any money to conceal but that liscence is a privelage and shows that you have been properly trained and certified to conceal a firearm. I do believe in order to obtain a CCW now, you must get cleared by the FBI or ATF. I have mixed feelings about this and haven't made up my mind. There is lots of good information people might miss out on by not being required to take classes. A lot of folks are tought by some one who may or may not practice safe gun handling procedure...

April 15, 2010, 01:15 AM	#173
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,299	I believe the term "common sense" is not so much a statement than a prayer. Two days left.

April 15, 2010, 01:56 AM	#174
sonick808 Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 396	i think she's probably thinking a LOT more about the immigration bill that just passed the house..... she'll probably sign sb 1108 with little reservation at all

April 15, 2010, 04:12 PM	#175
sonick808 Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 396	well, she signed a ton of bills yesterday, but sb 1108 wasn't one of them.... just called her again asking her to sign.