Had To Draw Down This Morning!

[Harley Quinn]

Time to take a few TKD classes, learn to scream and kick high, when he is 20 feet away from you.
If he continues to come at you just shoot him. Hey, is'nt that why you carry, to shoot?
If you are not going to shoot um, don't carry.

Or you can go down and get counceling on why we need to be a kinder and gentler Nation. That might change your attitude.
Or after they tell you how many people are actually victim's you just might shoot quicker

I know it is really against your religion. I am just kidding, Sick cop.

HQ

[mgdavis]

Aren't you glad you weren't having another one of These days?

[Harley Quinn]

The guy is definitly living on the edge.

Need some serious physcial exercise and fighting abilities, so you will be able to sleep better and not go to work so early, (dark).

HQ

[azurefly]

Originally Posted by CW04

A call to the police should have been made. The aggressor should have been reported. You did good protecting yourself, but what about the next person he meets - what if it was a 12 year old girl or a 75 year old man? Next time, before you call spiffy, please report it to the police - let them decide what to do or not do.

I know I'm late to this thread, and haven't read the intervening posts yet, but, I want to offer to CW04 that a large part of the ambivalence that many of us civvies would have about calling the police is the crapshoot we engage in regarding whether we end up with a cop who is prosecutorially hostile to our right to carry guns, and use them for personal defense.

In other words, we could easily end up with a cop who decides he has a need to slap the cuffs on us, because well, we just admitted to aggravated assault with a firearm! :barf:

It's tempting to just keep yer yap shut and count yerself lucky that you had what you needed to avert being harmed by some psycho dude. If he never goes and swears out a complaint against you (another gamble) you're in the clear. But then, while some advocate being the first to contact the police about a righteous use of your firearm because it gives you the legitimacy (even if it's just a display: obviously if you fired you'd call the cops, I would think), there is danger that the cop who responds will be all "Massachusetts" on ya.

-azurefly

[azurefly]

"He also could have been looking to rob/rape or kill someone and after he left your home, looked for a better victim. Calling the cops may have stopped him from hurting another person."

Because they could charge him with what, walking at someone in a parking lot?

Well, I was thinking that if he called the cops on the bruiser, and the cops caught up with him, they would probably be able to size up -- as cops can -- whether the guy was off-kilter and dangerous or not, and if he was, they could probably have easily nudged him into giving them the reason to haul him in. Anyway, I've seen that kind of thing happen enough on "COPS."

I just am giving credit to cops being able to make an assessment of a large, potentially-dangerous vagrant type and determining if leaving him to wander might end up endangering further innocents who may either be less prepared than WA or less cool-under-pressure.

-azurefly

[tanksoldier]

If you have a gun, and you allow yourself to be drawn into a physical confrontation, you could find your gun in the hands of your opponant.

You don't HAVE to get into a fistfight just because your adversary is apparently unarmed, even if you're the same size or bigger. Due to the limitations of most states' CCW we don't have the same force options a police officer has... no pepper spray, no ASP, no taser, often no knife... it's fists or gun.

If the drunk had continued to advance on Wild, what was he going to do? Put the gun away and duke it out with the guy, or let the guy walk up and take it from him?

At some point you have to decide to shoot even an apparently unarmed badguy... and the law has to recognize that.

[threegun]

The scariest bad guy I ever knew didn't carry a weapon. He was a big psycho with plenty of knife scars on his normally shirtless chest. The local police were even afraid of him.

I work at a pawnshop. A really normal looking average sized customer was confronted by police for dealing in stolen property (not at the shop). This guy was maybe 5'9" 180 or so and of average muscular build. He successfully fought off 4 officers actually taking one officers gun from its retention holster (tossed it away before being shot) then ran under a house and fought a german sheppard police officer to a draw. I saw his mug shot while detectives took paperwork and statements from us at the pawnshop and told us the story. He looked like Rocky Balboa before mick cut him. The point is he didn't look like a bad *** but would have been able to kill most of us with our own gun if he wanted to and if we didn't shot him.

This is just one reason why I would have shot if he didn't stop

[YellowLab]

THe number one rule is that I go home. Money can be replaced. There lots of it out there.

You only have 1 life.. and my belief is that NO ONE but me has the duty to protect it.

I live in semi rural PA and at best we have State Trooper coverage. Response time is 10-20 minutes.

Not being flippant, but in you situation if the 10 ft zone is breached (I think some places call it the saftey zone or some such) its two to the chest and one to the head.

With AIDs, HEP C and god knows what else floating around in Mr. Bad guy a physical confrontation is not gonna happen. I'll pay my law dog whatever it takes... but I go home. Period.

[Mikeyboy]

Time to take a few TKD classes, learn to scream and kick high, when he is 20 feet away from you.
If he continues to come at you just shoot him. Hey, is'nt that why you carry, to shoot?
If you are not going to shoot um, don't carry.

To quote Bobby from King of the Hill. "That's my purse!!! I don't know you!!"
If that don't work apparently you can shoot an unarmed man dead for walking "menacingly" toward you

Can we turn the tactical down a little here. Wild did fine. The guy backed down, and no one got hurt. Actually Wild it was probably Bigfoot trying to ask you a question about a 1911

[CWO4USCGRET]

Azurefly, I think your reasoning for not calling the police is total bullcrap. As I said previously calling the police and letting them handle it is a civic responsibility. Sometimes even off-duty officers best response it to be a witness...depending on the situation of course - before anyone starts the "what ifs." Now to address your concern about what you said about the zealous officer: Do you lie to him? No, do you tell him everything? No. Could you say something like I was in my parking lot coming home and this big (enter description) person was acting threatening and menacing, he appeared to be under the influence of something; I was able to avoid him but I feel it was necessary to call you.

Recently (about 0230 in the morning) my 110# German Shepard started barking and woke me up. He was trying to get through the picture window, some teenaged young woman apparently drunk, was having trouble walking (hell standing up). Although I could have gone outside with anything from .22 to 12 gauge; I called 911, identified myself, explained what was happening and they took care of it. What they possibly did was saved her life. She could have very easily stepped into the path of an oncoming car or even tried to go into someone else's house and get shot. Like I said, calling the police is a civic responsibility, and should be done.

WRT WildAlaska's reaction to the threat I see nothing wrong with his action regarding clearing leather. The only negative comment I have about his actions which could haunt any of us if we do have to shoot someone is his (and others) comments about "popping" him. Ambulance Chasers (personal injury lawyers) just love that...he walked toward me, looked crazy, so I popped him...the same thought is if I use my baton on someone, I didn't wail on him, I struck him as I was trained, to stop him from his assaultive behavior. If I shoot someone, it isn't "I popped hm," I shot him twice to the chest and once to the head to stop him because he had the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause me serious or fatal harm. Maybe it sounds hokey to some, but when you testify that you responded to the threat as you were trained to do it goes alot longer to showing you acted properly.

[azurefly]

CW04,
Take it easy, killer! I wasn't saying that I necessarily espouse not calling the police -- just offering reasons why in some places even a person who was justified in drawing a gun might fear the type of treatment he might get by the officer who responds. We all know that there are jurisdictions that are far from sympathetic to those of us who would use a gun for lawful self defense.

-azurefly

[CWO4USCGRET]

Azure, you don't know me well enough to refer to me as a "killer" so take it easy yourself I won't take it real personal, but I don't like it. Here is your comment that predicated my response:

I want to offer to CW04 that a large part of the ambivalence that many of us civvies would have about calling the police is the crapshoot we engage in regarding whether we end up with a cop who is prosecutorially hostile to our right to carry guns, and use them for personal defense.

In other words, we could easily end up with a cop who decides he has a need to slap the cuffs on us, because well, we just admitted to aggravated assault with a firearm!

You are the one talking about ambivalence about calling and it being a crapshoot worrying about "hostile" (arrest heavy?) officers responding.

My comment about calling the police is to report the aggressive behavior and t allow them to investigate the threat and take action. For all they know you heard a noise, saw the threat, and called it in.

[azurefly]

Dude, I was just saying take it easy. You came off like you took personal insult to what I had written, calling it "bullcrap." I was just trying to set the record straight. I myself am not of a set opinion about what I would do if I had to draw on someone but not fire. Would I call police? Would I refrain? I don't know.

The "take it easy, killer," is just a figure of speech, for cryin' out loud. (For that matter, so is "for cryin' out loud"! ) It wasn't like I was calling you an actual killer or something. Sorry if it was misunderstood.

-azurefly

[azurefly]

CW04, your clarification makes sense to me but it was something I hadn't caught earlier. I thought you were still talking on the subject (that most of us were still on) regarding whether we call and tell a cop that we had just drawn a handgun on someone we thought was intent on harming us.

You were talking about reporting the guy for being a menace, yes?
Well, what if we call it in, and the next thing you know, he is picked up, and after questioning, he admits that he approached some dude in a parking lot who scared the crap out of him by pulling a GUN on him? "Really? Someone pulled a gun on you?! Where? Take us there!"

Next thing you know, you're in handcuffs.

So there are potential drawbacks to even your plan of saying nothing about the gun but warning them that there's a big nasty dude wandering around.

-azurefly

[Lt. G]

Glad you're still here Wild. You showed more restraint than I would have.

Lt. G

[tepin]

In my opinion, if you pull a gun on someone and tell them to “get the F*** out or I will shoot you” and they keep walking towards you, a reasonable person should conclude that the bad guy believes he has the ability to disarm you. Whether the gun is in your hand or on the ground 10 feet away, the bad guy is going for a gun and you have the right to defend yourself if no other options exist. You need to consider the caliber of your firearm. I am not familiar with your choice of firearm but a person as large as what you have described and being drunk and possibly highly motivated, anything smaller than a .40 might be on the light side of stopping power.

[Wildalaska]

You need to consider the caliber of your firearm. I am not familiar with your choice of firearm but a person as large as what you have described and being drunk and possibly highly motivated, anything smaller than a .40 might be on the light side of stopping power.

This is a good one for a rant:

OK here it is....Here is the first rule of gun fighting:...Have a Gun. I had one. My choice of pistols is based on COMFORT. Its so small I forget its there (which causes problems sometimes ). I dont worry about all this caliber mumbo jumbo, I dont pay any attention to stopping power equations or apocryphal stories of crazed crackheads taking 27 shots of 40 in the chest....I comfortably have a gun, guys want to go around with 40s or 45s in their pockets with spare mags or clips or whatnot, hey, their thing, me I can whip that little 32 out from my pocket faster than a bucket of slop gets et by a hungry pig. Think a 32 isnt effective? let me shoot you in the face with one from 7 feet.

Every time I see the word stopping power I want to :barf: Im an armed civilain who uses a handgun as a LAST RESORT for self defense, stopping power is for cops and ninjas that go into harms way.

WildinarticulatethisamsorryAlaska

[threefivesevenmag]

Agreed. It's not necessarily the caliber, it's the person behind it. WildAlaska made it out okay and nobody was hurt in the process. All the other factors of caliber selection are negated.

[Roberta X]

Hooray for WA and Threefivesevenmag!

The "right" caliber is the one you will carry. Having a nice 1911 is no help at all if you're not able to carry it consistently, whatever the reason.

I own a lot of guns. The one that's most often on my person is a silly little DAO Colt Pocketlite .380. Not because I have worked out some specific .380 round that will take down a zombie but because it is a reliable gun I can carry in nearly every situation.

Just as WA said, the first rule is, "Have a gun." Maybe it's a Kel-Tec .32; maybe it's a flat and nasty Tokarev TT-5 or one of the zillions of .25s and .32s cranked out in Spain during WW I and after: it is still better than a purse with a brick in it or a sharp stick. It's better than a celphone or a stinging rebuke.

"The best is the enemy of good enough." I've been held up at gunpoint twice, each time by nervous youth weilding rusty small-caliber revolvers. While a .45 or Dirty Harry's .44 mag would have been nice, I was empty-handed. I'd've given my eyeteeth for WA's Kel-Tec. I'd've given my eyeteeth for a 1907 Savage .32 with a full magazine.

The idea isn't to fight a war, it's to live within our civilization and get home alive. Sometimes that means a plug-ugly or unloveable sidearm; sometimes it means a mousegun.

[Holman]

Carry the caliber you are most comfortable with. A gun in hand is better than no gun at all. I own several handguns from .38 Special to .44 Magnum and my favorite carry gun is my .38 special. It's not the size of the gun that matters, it's can you hit where you aim if you have to use it? One shot in the heart from any caliber is effective and will get the job done.

[mbs357]

This is a really popular thread!
It's been in the "last post" box on the main forum index every time I've checked the page for quite sometime, and I've been here rather frequently in the past few days. =)
I'll just chime in to say that I'm glad you came through ok, WA. ;D

[odessastraight]

W.A. if you feel comfortable with pulling a .32 on Big Foot then I, nor any other back seat driver should question your judgement in that matter. It worked for you. Congratulations. I have a different opinion about using mouse guns as CCWs and want what I consider effective in a package that I WILL have with me always. This has come down to a snubby in either .357 or in .44 special. It weighs a tad more than your Secamp, but I can live with the extra weight for what I consider effective stopping power. Anyway, I'm pleased that it worked out for you so well.

About calling LE... Hummmmmmm, I firmly believe in the rule of law and have lived a law abiding life (at least to the extent that I quallify for a CCW permit), but I don't think I'd have called the law in WAs case. I'm libertarian enough to feel that we don't need the government (to include LE) so involved with our private business. That was between WA and the Big Foot punk...WA solved the problem without LE. Yeaaaaah, had he took off shouting that he was going to call the cops on me then I WOULD have beaten him to the punch to cover my 6 o'clock.

[CWO4USCGRET]

called the law in WAs case. I'm libertarian enough to feel that we don't need the government (to include LE) so involved with our private business. That was between WA and the Big Foot punk...WA solved the problem without LE. Yeaaaaah, had he took off shouting that he was going to call the cops on me then I WOULD have beaten him to the punch to cover my 6 o'clock.

My bold highlight, Odessastraight's comment. I am amazed by how many who have responded to this thread are so adamantly opposed to calling the police in this situation. Also amazing is how many ae actually debating the caliber of the gun he was carrying. Proficiency and competence regardless of caliber is more important then bullet size. I carry everything from .22 lr to .41 Magnum, depending on the occasion. More often then not, it is either a PPK in .380 or a ParaOrd Warthog in .45 ACP. I am proficient with all my handguns, know their limitations, and act accordingly. At the range the actual confrontation (within 20 feet) will happen any of those calibers are more then adequate. Silver tips are great .32 ACP rounds; hydrashok .38 special +P, Golden Saber 185 grain +P .45 ACP, .22 lr CCI mini-magnums; 215 grain .41 Magnum JHP - they will work; I know they will.

WildAlaska acted appropriately when he defended himself. No questions about that, he did what he felt was necessary; perceived a grave threat to his personal safety, and acted accordingly - got rid of the threat.

What would have happened had the assailant went after a lesser threat, someone unarmed, and either injured them severely or killed them? What if after WA sent him packing, tail between his legs, and he took it out on the next person he saw? Not caling the police to report something like that is neglecting civic responsibility; it condones illegal behavior. If you are that concerned about getting in trouble with the law for taking an action that you are legally permitted to do (instead of taking steps to help safeguard your community, then maybe you should re-evaluate carrying concealed.

Sorry guys, I would much rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6 or live with knowing that maybe had I made a phone call, someone else's life wouldn't have been ruined.

[azurefly]

If you are that concerned about getting in trouble with the law for taking an action that you are legally permitted to do (instead of taking steps to help safeguard your community, then maybe you should re-evaluate carrying concealed.

I think you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that some people live with the VERY REAL possibility that even though they did not break any law, or even react inappropriately by producing a firearm, they may be charged or otherwise hassled by police. It is a real phenomenon. You are far too dismissive of the concerns of others, and are acting like it should be done your way or no way.

Many people here have made clear that they take responsibility for themselves, as they well should, and will not put their necks out necessarily for the rest of the public. After all, each member of the public should be taking responsibility for his or her own safety. I don't owe it to the next person down the street to risk having a cop give me a hard time about my pulling a gun on "Bigfoot," especially since my view is that joe-down-the-street ought to have seen to his own protection himself.

-azurefly

[CWO4USCGRET]

I think you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that some people live with the VERY REAL possibility that even though they did not break any law, or even react inappropriately by producing a firearm, they may be charged or otherwise hassled by police. It is a real phenomenon. You are far too dismissive of the concerns of others, and are acting like it should be done your way or no way.

Azure, it isn't my way, it is what any law abiding citizen should do.

My last comment on the issue.