Not getting published velocities for 5.56 with 55gr fmj / CFE223

terrybarb3 · March 4, 2014, 06:05 PM

Hope one of you can answer something for me. I looked at the Hornady load data for 5.56 with 55gr fmj bullets. It shows a max load for CFE @27.7gr with an approximate fps of 3200.

I used 27gr even of CFE223 and only got an average of 2850 fps (it was 18degrees here today also). ((CCI small rifle primers))

The manual states they used a Bushmaster 20", I used a Bushmaster 16"... but HOLY COW! Thats a 350fps spread.

Plus, the primer's showed pressure signs. I'm seriously confused how I can be getting 350fps lower than published (I expected maybe a max of 120fps spread at 30fps per barrel inch difference). But the primer's showing flattening and the incredibly low speeds have me scratching my head.

Any ideas what's going on here?

Brian Pfleuger · March 4, 2014, 06:08 PM

Your gun is not their gun.

It was 18 degrees.

I hope you worked up to that load. 27gr would not be a starting load for a 27.7gr max.

jwrowland77 · March 4, 2014, 06:08 PM

Your load and setup would have to be exactly the same as what the tested with. Everything would have to be the same to even get close or match.

Are you chasing velocity or accuracy?

terrybarb3 · March 4, 2014, 06:12 PM

I'm tracking with your velocity vs. accuracy point. The fps spread is so dramatic that I am looking for something that I may be doing wrong. That much fps is a lot of energy loss at 200 yards.

Do different rifle's create that great of velocity differences/variations?

terrybarb3 · March 4, 2014, 06:14 PM

Brian
Does colder temp make a dramatic difference in today's powders?

jwrowland77 · March 4, 2014, 06:15 PM

Yes they do.

I have a 7mm RM load that only gets me 2850fps but man o man, it's deadly tack driving accurate.

Can I push it faster? Yes. Will I? Nope. It's deadly accurate. Am I getting book velocity? Nope.

The thing is, your cases would have to be exactly like theirs, primers exactly like theirs, conditions, etc...to get close to theirs

Brian Pfleuger · March 4, 2014, 06:17 PM

Just holding a rifle different can effect the velocity by 100 fps.

Yes, cold temperatures can effect velocity dramatically. I don't know how temperature sensitive CFE223 is.

Bart B. · March 4, 2014, 06:24 PM

Most of the difference is probably due to your barrel's bore and groove diameters being larger than the barrrel used to develop that listed load. A different lot of powder can easily produce 25 to 35 fps different velocities than another lot. And several folks shooting the same rifle and ammo can easily have a 60 to 90 fps spread in average muzzle velocities caused by how hard they hold the rifle against their bodies to shoot it.

SpringOWeiler · March 4, 2014, 06:54 PM

My buddy and I did some testing with that exact bullet and 27.5gr CFE223 and it was 15* and snowing hard. 16" Rock River something, (sry i'm an ak guy)and he averaged 2948fps and shot a .67", .76", and .81" 10 shot groups, then a 1.45" tulla 10shot group. Would have been .95" if we dropped one flyer. I promise you that round has enough energy to make a good whack on a steel plate at 200 yards even 300. 450 is the point where you gotta try to hear it lol

terrybarb3 · March 4, 2014, 07:07 PM

You gents bring an interesting point that I was un aware of. I had 'heard' temp effects fps... but how does the pressure against one's shoulder effect anything? I'm familiar with free float barrels... but shoulder pressure?

Jimro · March 4, 2014, 07:15 PM

Don't know what chamber you have in your rifle. A 5.56 chamber should "drop" around 4,000 PSI off of a 223 chamber for the same load based on the research I've been doing into chamber mismatches.

I'm guessing the Hornady Load Data was using a 223 Chamber. The M193 milspec data calls for 28.0 grains of WC844 with a SAAMI chamber pressure of 52,000 psi. CFE223 is slower than WC844 by a fair bit, slower than WC846 in fact. So in your rifle, with the pressure signs you are getting, it isn't likely you'll be able to break 3000 fps with CFE223 in that rifle.

I'd suggest a faster powder or a heavier bullet.

Jimro

jwrowland77 · March 4, 2014, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terrybarb3

You gents bring an interesting point that I was un aware of. I had 'heard' temp effects fps... but how does the pressure against one's shoulder effect anything? I'm familiar with free float barrels... but shoulder pressure?

I've noticed while shooting over my chronograph, that as long as I hold the rifle nice and right against my shoulder, I'll have higher velocity than if I just rest it against my shoulder.

For every action, there's an opposite equal reaction. If there's slack in the rifle against your shoulder, part of that reaction is being taken up by the rifle moving to a solid position against your shoulder. If the rifle is already there and doesn't taken up any of the reaction, the only thing that can really react is the bullet.

terrybarb3 · March 4, 2014, 09:36 PM

Gentleman, I must say that I am actually impressed with your answers on this post. Thank you for the input, and the examples.

steve4102 · March 5, 2014, 08:07 AM

Your velocities are pretty close to Hodgdon data and Quickload.

Hodgdon used a 24 inch barrel. 27.8gr Max with Speer 55gr SP generated 3329fps. Quickload predicts this to be 3298fps.

By reducing the charge to 27gr and the barrel to 16 inches, QL predicts 2885fps compared to your 2859fps.

So, you did two things, you reduced the powder charge by .7gr and reduced the barrel length. According to QL that .7gr reduced velocity by about 100fps. The 8 inches of barrel accounts for the rest.

steve4102 · March 5, 2014, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Hornady load data for 5.56 with 55gr fmj bullets. It shows a max load for CFE @27.7gr with an approximate fps of 3200.

What manual do you have?
My Hornady #7 lists a 26 inch barrel for the 223 Remington.

Looking at Hornady Superformance ammo, their ammo that beats all uthers by 100-200fps doesn't gitty-up-go to 3200fps out of a 20 inch barrel.

http://www.hornady.com/store/5.56-NA...Superformance/

chiefr · March 5, 2014, 10:15 AM

If I have learned one thing from reloading in over 40 years is. You will RARELY attain published velocities with ANY advertised bullets and ANY advertised powder.

Some velocities less and some more.
Hundreds of reasons are already listed from temp to even how you hold the gun plus characteristics of your rifle. Feel free to add more.

I have learned to concentrate more on group size while developing a load at the same time never exceeding recommendations as published in data.

Brian Pfleuger · March 5, 2014, 11:13 AM

Quote:

You will RARELY attain published velocities with ANY advertised bullets and ANY advertised powder.

By the nature of the beast that will almost always be the case. Load data is most typically obtained by skewing the variables toward high pressure (SAAMI minimum chambers) while real world guns are almost always built to skew the variables toward low pressure (SAAMI maximum chambers).

If the data was obtained with real world guns, velocity is usually not that tough to match, sometimes exceed. Most isn't though.

Sharkbite · March 5, 2014, 12:17 PM

I think you got variables stacking against you here

1. COLD temps
2. Shorter barrel then tested
3. .7 gn reduction in powder
4. (And maybe the most critical) shooting a 223 load outta a 5.56 chamber. This was covered in reverse on another thread here. 556 chambers have more leade or freebore ahead of the case mouth. This will cause a drop in velocity unless the load is tailored for that gun.

If you have a good AR smith in your area. Take the rifle in and have him check leade on the barrel. Simple and fast way to KNOW what the rifle actually has. Ive seen more then one rifle marked wrong. 223 vs 556

cdoc42 · March 5, 2014, 06:21 PM

I haven't graphed these loads but accuracy seems more important: These are 5 shots each at a 5-inch paper plate at 50 yards with a red dot sight, no magnification:

CFE-223, 26.0gr................0.7145"
H4895, 25.0gr....................0.902"
Varget, 25.0gr....................1.027"
IMR 8208XBR 23.5gr.............1.868"
IMR 3031 23.5 gr.................0.902"
BL-C(2) 25.0gr.................... 1.527"

I quit experimenting, disregarding any load changes because how can I beat CFE-223 no matter what the velocity?

steve4102 · March 5, 2014, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger

If the data was obtained with real world guns, velocity is usually not that tough to match, sometimes exceed. Most isn't though.

According to Hornady #7, they pressure test their loads in a Pressure barrel then re-test for velocity in "real world guns" In the 223 that would be a 26 inch barreled Rem 700.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot · March 5, 2014, 07:23 PM

Terry,

Your receiving some good info in the above posts.

Now, over the years I have been choreographing rounds from my and friends firearms, I quickly found there to be at least 3 groups of rifles as per velocity rec'd

First and largest group are those rifles which miss published velocities by in many cases, 2 - 300fps.

Second and smaller group are those rifles that about match published data, while the 3rd and much the smallest group are those which exceed the published data.

Then, you have the big decrease in barrel length with your rifle, a different lot number of powder being used as well as different primers, brass and oh yes a different rifle and barrel.

I have seen just about a 100fps decrease in just changing lots of powder.

It is fun to be out with a friend and his super boomer and watch his face when the velocities fall way short of his expectations, but it is also fun to sometimes see a rifle show it's heals to the published data.

Some years back, there was a Speer manual that published some data which would make every velocity hounds blood run faster. In reality, my rifle was HUNDREDS of fps slower.

I'd love to have a few jugs of that powder in that same lot number, but even then I might still be way short of their results.

Don't despair, critters are not likely to know the difference, and the question about you chasing accuracy or velocity is very valid.

Which is it?

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Brian Pfleuger · March 5, 2014, 08:14 PM

Quote:

According to Hornady #7, they pressure test their loads in a Pressure barrel then re-test for velocity in "real world guns" In the 223 that would be a 26 inch barreled Rem 700.

Yeah, some of them do that. Some even test in regular guns and don't give pressure data at all.

Stavman11 · March 6, 2014, 10:38 AM

I also agree with posts above

I did some Personal testing of H335 vs Bulk WC844... And based on all the data i was able to find for my pre-testing, as well as hundreds of Rounds of Comparison... The Biggest Contributor was the Barrel Length

16" to 24" barrel is easily 250-300fps difference
16" to 22" 200fps

Now 20" to 22" isnt as much, maybe 25-45fps same with 22"-24"

So with the Powder Lot's Difference, weather, Relative humidity, Solar Flares, Rotational Variations of the earth vs moon cycle.... the Barrel length will be the Biggest Difference in the calculations...

Hope all the replies from everyone Helps

castnblast · March 7, 2014, 06:05 PM

If you switch over to pistol data you will find your velocities are in check. Pistol data for hodgdon was shot out of a 14" barrel. Your 16" M4 is really a 15". The extra inch is your flash suppressor and a 4" reduction will yield a loss of approx 300 fps or so with a 223. I just put an 18"
McMillan on my AR and my velocity went up 247 fps from my M4 velocities with the same powder charge.

That said I don't over concern myself with velocity. Doesn't matter how fast it gets there if it misses the target.

jmr40 · March 7, 2014, 06:46 PM

I've seen over 100 fps difference between different guns with the SAME barrel length with ammo from the same box.

Most ammo is tested at 72 degrees. Some powder will lose 1-2 fps for each degree less than that so that could account for 50-100 fps.

Most ammo loses 15-25 fps for each inch shorter barrel than the test barrel, so that could easily account for another 100 fps

Lots of little things add up.

March 4, 2014, 06:05 PM	#1
terrybarb3 Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 43	Not getting published velocities for 5.56 with 55gr fmj / CFE223 Hope one of you can answer something for me. I looked at the Hornady load data for 5.56 with 55gr fmj bullets. It shows a max load for CFE @27.7gr with an approximate fps of 3200. I used 27gr even of CFE223 and only got an average of 2850 fps (it was 18degrees here today also). ((CCI small rifle primers)) The manual states they used a Bushmaster 20", I used a Bushmaster 16"... but HOLY COW! Thats a 350fps spread. Plus, the primer's showed pressure signs. I'm seriously confused how I can be getting 350fps lower than published (I expected maybe a max of 120fps spread at 30fps per barrel inch difference). But the primer's showing flattening and the incredibly low speeds have me scratching my head. Any ideas what's going on here?

March 4, 2014, 06:08 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Your gun is not their gun. It was 18 degrees. I hope you worked up to that load. 27gr would not be a starting load for a 27.7gr max. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

March 4, 2014, 06:14 PM	#5
terrybarb3 Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 43	Max published loads Brian Does colder temp make a dramatic difference in today's powders?

March 4, 2014, 06:54 PM	#9
SpringOWeiler Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2014 Location: Washington (Dry Side) Posts: 116	Similar Results! My buddy and I did some testing with that exact bullet and 27.5gr CFE223 and it was 15* and snowing hard. 16" Rock River something, (sry i'm an ak guy)and he averaged 2948fps and shot a .67", .76", and .81" 10 shot groups, then a 1.45" tulla 10shot group. Would have been .95" if we dropped one flyer. I promise you that round has enough energy to make a good whack on a steel plate at 200 yards even 300. 450 is the point where you gotta try to hear it lol

March 4, 2014, 07:07 PM	#10
terrybarb3 Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 43	Holding the rifle differently contributes to spread? You gents bring an interesting point that I was un aware of. I had 'heard' temp effects fps... but how does the pressure against one's shoulder effect anything? I'm familiar with free float barrels... but shoulder pressure?

March 4, 2014, 06:08 PM	#3
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Your load and setup would have to be exactly the same as what the tested with. Everything would have to be the same to even get close or match. Are you chasing velocity or accuracy?

March 4, 2014, 06:12 PM	#4
terrybarb3 Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 43	I'm tracking with your velocity vs. accuracy point. The fps spread is so dramatic that I am looking for something that I may be doing wrong. That much fps is a lot of energy loss at 200 yards. Do different rifle's create that great of velocity differences/variations?

March 4, 2014, 06:15 PM	#6
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Yes they do. I have a 7mm RM load that only gets me 2850fps but man o man, it's deadly tack driving accurate. Can I push it faster? Yes. Will I? Nope. It's deadly accurate. Am I getting book velocity? Nope. The thing is, your cases would have to be exactly like theirs, primers exactly like theirs, conditions, etc...to get close to theirs

March 4, 2014, 06:17 PM	#7
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Just holding a rifle different can effect the velocity by 100 fps. Yes, cold temperatures can effect velocity dramatically. I don't know how temperature sensitive CFE223 is. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

March 4, 2014, 06:24 PM	#8
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Most of the difference is probably due to your barrel's bore and groove diameters being larger than the barrrel used to develop that listed load. A different lot of powder can easily produce 25 to 35 fps different velocities than another lot. And several folks shooting the same rifle and ammo can easily have a 60 to 90 fps spread in average muzzle velocities caused by how hard they hold the rifle against their bodies to shoot it.

March 4, 2014, 07:15 PM	#11
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Don't know what chamber you have in your rifle. A 5.56 chamber should "drop" around 4,000 PSI off of a 223 chamber for the same load based on the research I've been doing into chamber mismatches. I'm guessing the Hornady Load Data was using a 223 Chamber. The M193 milspec data calls for 28.0 grains of WC844 with a SAAMI chamber pressure of 52,000 psi. CFE223 is slower than WC844 by a fair bit, slower than WC846 in fact. So in your rifle, with the pressure signs you are getting, it isn't likely you'll be able to break 3000 fps with CFE223 in that rifle. I'd suggest a faster powder or a heavier bullet. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

March 4, 2014, 09:36 PM	#13
terrybarb3 Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 43	Gentleman, I must say that I am actually impressed with your answers on this post. Thank you for the input, and the examples.

March 5, 2014, 08:07 AM	#14
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Your velocities are pretty close to Hodgdon data and Quickload. Hodgdon used a 24 inch barrel. 27.8gr Max with Speer 55gr SP generated 3329fps. Quickload predicts this to be 3298fps. By reducing the charge to 27gr and the barrel to 16 inches, QL predicts 2885fps compared to your 2859fps. So, you did two things, you reduced the powder charge by .7gr and reduced the barrel length. According to QL that .7gr reduced velocity by about 100fps. The 8 inches of barrel accounts for the rest.

March 5, 2014, 10:15 AM	#16
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	If I have learned one thing from reloading in over 40 years is. You will RARELY attain published velocities with ANY advertised bullets and ANY advertised powder. Some velocities less and some more. Hundreds of reasons are already listed from temp to even how you hold the gun plus characteristics of your rifle. Feel free to add more. I have learned to concentrate more on group size while developing a load at the same time never exceeding recommendations as published in data.

March 5, 2014, 12:17 PM	#18
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	I think you got variables stacking against you here 1. COLD temps 2. Shorter barrel then tested 3. .7 gn reduction in powder 4. (And maybe the most critical) shooting a 223 load outta a 5.56 chamber. This was covered in reverse on another thread here. 556 chambers have more leade or freebore ahead of the case mouth. This will cause a drop in velocity unless the load is tailored for that gun. If you have a good AR smith in your area. Take the rifle in and have him check leade on the barrel. Simple and fast way to KNOW what the rifle actually has. Ive seen more then one rifle marked wrong. 223 vs 556

March 5, 2014, 06:21 PM	#19
cdoc42 Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,687	I haven't graphed these loads but accuracy seems more important: These are 5 shots each at a 5-inch paper plate at 50 yards with a red dot sight, no magnification: CFE-223, 26.0gr................0.7145" H4895, 25.0gr....................0.902" Varget, 25.0gr....................1.027" IMR 8208XBR 23.5gr.............1.868" IMR 3031 23.5 gr.................0.902" BL-C(2) 25.0gr.................... 1.527" I quit experimenting, disregarding any load changes because how can I beat CFE-223 no matter what the velocity?

March 5, 2014, 07:23 PM	#21
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Location: Deary, Ideeeeeeho Posts: 531	Terry, Your receiving some good info in the above posts. Now, over the years I have been choreographing rounds from my and friends firearms, I quickly found there to be at least 3 groups of rifles as per velocity rec'd First and largest group are those rifles which miss published velocities by in many cases, 2 - 300fps. Second and smaller group are those rifles that about match published data, while the 3rd and much the smallest group are those which exceed the published data. Then, you have the big decrease in barrel length with your rifle, a different lot number of powder being used as well as different primers, brass and oh yes a different rifle and barrel. I have seen just about a 100fps decrease in just changing lots of powder. It is fun to be out with a friend and his super boomer and watch his face when the velocities fall way short of his expectations, but it is also fun to sometimes see a rifle show it's heals to the published data. Some years back, there was a Speer manual that published some data which would make every velocity hounds blood run faster. In reality, my rifle was HUNDREDS of fps slower. I'd love to have a few jugs of that powder in that same lot number, but even then I might still be way short of their results. Don't despair, critters are not likely to know the difference, and the question about you chasing accuracy or velocity is very valid. Which is it? Crusty Deary Ol'Coot Last edited by Crusty Deary Ol'Coot; March 6, 2014 at 11:30 AM.

March 6, 2014, 10:38 AM	#23
Stavman11 Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Posts: 26	I also agree with posts above I did some Personal testing of H335 vs Bulk WC844... And based on all the data i was able to find for my pre-testing, as well as hundreds of Rounds of Comparison... The Biggest Contributor was the Barrel Length 16" to 24" barrel is easily 250-300fps difference 16" to 22" 200fps Now 20" to 22" isnt as much, maybe 25-45fps same with 22"-24" So with the Powder Lot's Difference, weather, Relative humidity, Solar Flares, Rotational Variations of the earth vs moon cycle.... the Barrel length will be the Biggest Difference in the calculations... Hope all the replies from everyone Helps

March 7, 2014, 06:05 PM	#24
castnblast Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2006 Location: Corpus Christi TX Posts: 1,148	Your velocities If you switch over to pistol data you will find your velocities are in check. Pistol data for hodgdon was shot out of a 14" barrel. Your 16" M4 is really a 15". The extra inch is your flash suppressor and a 4" reduction will yield a loss of approx 300 fps or so with a 223. I just put an 18" McMillan on my AR and my velocity went up 247 fps from my M4 velocities with the same powder charge. That said I don't over concern myself with velocity. Doesn't matter how fast it gets there if it misses the target. __________________ VEGETARIAN...old indian word for bad hunter

March 7, 2014, 06:46 PM	#25
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	I've seen over 100 fps difference between different guns with the SAME barrel length with ammo from the same box. Most ammo is tested at 72 degrees. Some powder will lose 1-2 fps for each degree less than that so that could account for 50-100 fps. Most ammo loses 15-25 fps for each inch shorter barrel than the test barrel, so that could easily account for another 100 fps Lots of little things add up.