Dirty .45ACP reloads . . . help needed.

DaveInPA · March 16, 2008, 08:10 PM

Hey everyone. I took my 1911 and a batch of reloads to the range today. Here's what the load was:

185gr LSWC
4.6gr W231
WLP Primers

These loads were DIRTY! Lots of smoke, lots of soot buildup inside the gun after 75 rounds. Also on a few magazines, the gun didn't lock open on empty. I know it's not the gun causing that issue because other ammo locked the gun open on empty with no issues. Now, should I try a heavier powder charge next time so that the powder burns more completely? Would 4.9 grains be ok?

What do you suggest? I also have Hodgdon titegroup on hand, is that any cleaner, and if so, what would a good charge be for that bullet?

Thanks!

Hawg · March 16, 2008, 08:33 PM

I use a 255 gr. home cast SWC with 4.5 grs. of W 231 and CCI primers. I don't get any smoke or dirty action. My lube so far has been beeswax. Maybe your lube is at fault.

DaveInPA · March 16, 2008, 08:34 PM

I'm using bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. I don't think it's the lube because 230gr RN bullets from the same company haven't given my any issues.

rwilson452 · March 16, 2008, 09:26 PM

Dave, you may find this strange but try a tighter crimp. sometimes that works.

somerled · March 16, 2008, 10:07 PM

That is a light charge. It might help to go up to 5.0 grains. The case will expand a bit more and be a better seal. A good taper crimp as rwilson suggested will also help. Some people use the Lee factory crimp dies.

snuffy · March 16, 2008, 10:18 PM

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Hodgdon data says that 5.0 is a starting load for 45 acp and 185 JSWC bullets, with a top load of 5.9. Lead 180 grain boolits have the same 5.0 starting load with a 6.0 max. That shows that your pressure was not near what it should be for that boolit.

ForneyRider · March 16, 2008, 11:46 PM

I shot a bunch of 230gr Hornady FMJ with 4.6,5.3,5.8gr W231, WLP with hardly any mess. Wiped the frame off. I looked down the barrel and couldn't tell I any difference from before I shot.

Spoiled with the FMJ and JHP. Just not ready to make jump to lead.

I lube every 5th case with Lee lube. Smells like fish.

DaveInPA · March 17, 2008, 08:44 PM

Any other input? Load data is seriously lacking in the 185gr LSWC department.

snuffy · March 18, 2008, 11:45 AM

180 GR. LFP Winchester 231 .452" 1.140" 5.0 778 11,300 CUP 6.0 950 16,800 CUP

185 GR. HDY JSWC Winchester 231 .451" 1.195" 5.0 762 12,000 CUP 5.9 906 15,800 CUP

I've loaded 5.5 of WW231 for 200 rfn 45 lead boolits. As you can see above that's half way between starting and max for the 180/185 gr. 45 bullets. For the heavier 230 grainers, I drop down to the recommended 5.3 grains. None of my loads are dirty.

200 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester 231 .451" 1.225" 4.4 771 11,000 CUP 5.6 914 16,900 CUP

230 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .452" 1.200" 4.3 699 12,200 CUP 5.3 834 16,900 CUP

These loads are from the online loading data from Hodgdon. Your load is too light. That's why you are getting dirty results. You're not even close to minimum starting loads.

180 GR. LFP Hodgdon Titegroup .452" 1.140" 4.2 771 10,200 CUP 5.2 946 16,600 CUP

185 GR. HDY JSWC Hodgdon Titegroup .451" 1.195" 5.0 892 14,600 CUP 5.5 956 17,000 CUP

With titegroup you can get away with a little less powder to get the same performance. I don't use it myself, so I can't speak as to it's cleanliness.

azredhawk44 · March 18, 2008, 12:03 PM

It's a light load, with a generally fast powder.

I've found that lead boolits tend to leave leading or wax residue more frequently, and shoot dirtier, with faster powders.

Switching to a little bit slower powder and bringing the powder charge somewhere between the min and max charges will have it burn cleaner and lead less.

DaveInPA · March 18, 2008, 12:31 PM

Snuffy, that's jacketed data, which I've seen in my manuals. I'm using lead bullets.

azredhawk, what powder would you recommend? Would Titegroup fit the bill?

**Unclenick** · March 18, 2008, 12:48 PM

231 is not clean, but meters easily. I knew a lot of guys who shot 4.0 and 4.2 grains loads for indoor 50 ft. matches in tuned 1911's. I used to run 3.8 grains of Bullseye under Star's 185 grain swaged SWC, myself.

The smoke has much to do with evaporating lube at lower temperatures and pressures. Evaporating oil is how smoke making machines work, like the ones used in theatrical productions. You can often reduce the effect by dampening a rag with mineral spirits and rubbing the base of each bullet over it to remove the lube from the part of the bullet that is exposed to hot propellant gases. A certain amount will remain in the bore, however, so this doesn't do it 100%.

Faster powder will recoil less, but won't necessarily let you get the same velocity. Just 3.0 grains of Hodgdon Clays will give you the same chamber pressure, lose maybe 20 fps in velocity, but will burn 100% in a 5" barrel. 3.1 to 3.2 grains of Clays will match the velocity, raising pressure just a little, (though it is still very light). 3.3 grains of Vihtavuori N310 will do the same thing. Your current 231 load is burning around 85% and throwing the rest away. Ballistic efficiency with the Clays or N310 is much better, which is why you need less of either. You want to be careful not to double-charge with them accidentally.

The suggestion to increase your crimp is valid. The old timers worked on ammo a lot and many found that a roll crimp with about 0.020" of bullet bearing surface protruding from the case mouth was best. It is hard on case life though. The harder crimp increases start pressure and lets a ball powder start burning better. Ball powders are notoriously harder to light than the other grain styles. A heavier bullet will let them have more burning time, too. The H&G 68 style bullets are good for this. If you cast, get the 6-cavity Lee TL 452-200 SWC. The tumble lube bullets are great for accuracy.

When I shot indoor matches with 185 grain bullets, I learned to headspace them and other lead bullets on the bullet itself. I was still using taper crimping, but got a big accuracy improvement from going to bullet headspacing, as well as better powder burning. To headspace on the bullet, you take the barrel out of your gun and use it as a gage. You seat a bullet way out too far, run it just far enough into the crimp die to get most of the expander flare flattened so the case will fit in the chamber. Seat the bullet in deeper in increments until the cartridge drops into the barrel with the casehead just flush with the back of the barrel. Check to be sure this longer bullet configuration loads into and feeds from your magazine without a problem. If so, you have your new OAL. If not, just nudge it in slightly deeper until you find the longest OAL that does fit and feed.

The object of headspacing off the bullet is to get the bullet started into the freebore and to avoid letting it fall so far into the chamber that it headspaces on the extractor hook, as happens with many .45's. Headspacing on the extractor hook causes the cartridge to pivot at the hook as the firing pin pushes it forward, tipping it in the chamber as it fires. Unlike jacketed bullets, lead can't seem to straighten itself back out again in the bore. The result is a bullet that wobbles a little on the way to the target, making a bigger group.

azredhawk44 · March 18, 2008, 12:50 PM

Titegroup's pretty dirty for me too. Not as bad as Unique though.

I haven't done a lot of lead loads for autopistols... mostly revolvers. I've done a little for .45acp and 9mm though. 9mm really seemed to like AA#7 that I typically keep around for my .44mag plinking loads. Burned very clean and didn't lead very much at all in my XD9.

AA#7 and 45acp so far has only been shot out of my Marlin Camp 45, and I disliked just how far the brass was getting flung with that powder in comparison to Titegroup in the same weapon. I also didn't like how the Micro-Groove barrel on the carbine reacted to lead bullets.

I'll load up a batch of lead 230gr 45acp with lighter-end AA#7 charges for my 1911 and get back to you after this weekend. I don't have any lighter lead .45 bullets than that right now.

All I've got in the stable right now is:
Titegroup
AA#7
H110
Triple Seven
IMR-4895

snuffy · March 18, 2008, 02:18 PM

Snuffy, that's jacketed data, which I've seen in my manuals. I'm using lead bullets.

Well I give up! If you're waiting for a specific load for your bullets, you may as well put the loader away and forget it. There's so many different cast boolit profiles out there, there could never be any specific loads published. JUST USE THE 180 GRAIN DATA!

There's nothing wrong with being cautious, but learn to adapt other loading data to fit your application. You CAN see the powder charges are close to one another all the way up to 230 grains? Also you CAN see that your charge is BELOW any of those? Try the recommended starting charge for the 180 grain LFP, I bet you will see less dirty loads.

azredhawk44 · March 18, 2008, 06:58 PM

I also agree with snuffy, under the logic that:

1. You don't have 185gr load data, but you do have 180gr load data.
2. Your current charge for your 185gr load is too light by several tenths of a grain for a 180gr load.
3. The min/max spread for a 180gr load overlaps with the min/max spread for a 200gr load.
4. It would be a safe assumption to use a 180gr published load within the shared constraints of the 180gr and 200gr published loads for a 185gr bullet.

Adaptation, improvisation and the ability to interpret the variables like:
A. OAL
B. Case capacity
C. Primer Type
D. Bullet length
E. Bullet weight
F. Relative burn speeds of similar powders
G. JHP versus jacketed ball versus lead

are critical skills to the handloader.

Don't do anything dangerous... but increasing your powder charge by 0.5gr in THIS SITUATION is a well-reasoned and logical step to take since it fits within the min/max spread of a similar load without approaching maximum boundaries.

Wilburt · March 18, 2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

3.3 grains of Vihtavuori N310 will do the same thing

Just courious but i haven't ventured lower that 3.8 gr vvn310 with a 200 gr lswc. Are you talking about the 185 gr for 3.3

AlaskaMike · March 19, 2008, 03:52 PM

Dave, I'm kind of surprised that load was able to cycle your 1911 as consistently as it seems to have. As others mentioned, that seems like a very light powder charge for that bullet. I think I'd up the charge to 5.0, probably more like 5.2 or 5.4 grains, depending on the OAL you're using.

And generally speaking you can use jacketed data for cast bullet loads if you work conservatively, start low and work up.

Mike

DaveInPA · March 19, 2008, 04:03 PM

Here's a related question. Why do manuals call for lighter powder charges for heavier bullets?

azredhawk44 · March 19, 2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Here's a related question. Why do manuals call for lighter powder charges for heavier bullets?

Pressure.

Heavier bullets are generally longer. This means that you have more friction against the barrel during ignition, as well as reduced case capacity inside the brass since your max OAL is measured from the front of the bullet.

If a 180gr .45 caliber bullet in a .45acp case at 1.250" OAL leaves 0.8 cubic centimeters for powder and ignition (just a guess), then a 230gr .45 caliber bullet in the same case at the same length only leaves 0.6 cubic centimeters. To stay within the SAAMI spec pressure limits, you have to decrease the powder charge.

March 16, 2008, 08:10 PM	#1
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	Dirty .45ACP reloads . . . help needed. Hey everyone. I took my 1911 and a batch of reloads to the range today. Here's what the load was: 185gr LSWC 4.6gr W231 WLP Primers These loads were DIRTY! Lots of smoke, lots of soot buildup inside the gun after 75 rounds. Also on a few magazines, the gun didn't lock open on empty. I know it's not the gun causing that issue because other ammo locked the gun open on empty with no issues. Now, should I try a heavier powder charge next time so that the powder burns more completely? Would 4.9 grains be ok? What do you suggest? I also have Hodgdon titegroup on hand, is that any cleaner, and if so, what would a good charge be for that bullet? Thanks!

March 16, 2008, 10:18 PM	#6
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp Hodgdon data says that 5.0 is a starting load for 45 acp and 185 JSWC bullets, with a top load of 5.9. Lead 180 grain boolits have the same 5.0 starting load with a 6.0 max. That shows that your pressure was not near what it should be for that boolit. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

March 18, 2008, 11:45 AM	#9
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	180 GR. LFP Winchester 231 .452" 1.140" 5.0 778 11,300 CUP 6.0 950 16,800 CUP 185 GR. HDY JSWC Winchester 231 .451" 1.195" 5.0 762 12,000 CUP 5.9 906 15,800 CUP I've loaded 5.5 of WW231 for 200 rfn 45 lead boolits. As you can see above that's half way between starting and max for the 180/185 gr. 45 bullets. For the heavier 230 grainers, I drop down to the recommended 5.3 grains. None of my loads are dirty. 200 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester 231 .451" 1.225" 4.4 771 11,000 CUP 5.6 914 16,900 CUP 230 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .452" 1.200" 4.3 699 12,200 CUP 5.3 834 16,900 CUP These loads are from the online loading data from Hodgdon. Your load is too light. That's why you are getting dirty results. You're not even close to minimum starting loads. 180 GR. LFP Hodgdon Titegroup .452" 1.140" 4.2 771 10,200 CUP 5.2 946 16,600 CUP 185 GR. HDY JSWC Hodgdon Titegroup .451" 1.195" 5.0 892 14,600 CUP 5.5 956 17,000 CUP With titegroup you can get away with a little less powder to get the same performance. I don't use it myself, so I can't speak as to it's cleanliness. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

March 18, 2008, 12:48 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	231 is not clean, but meters easily. I knew a lot of guys who shot 4.0 and 4.2 grains loads for indoor 50 ft. matches in tuned 1911's. I used to run 3.8 grains of Bullseye under Star's 185 grain swaged SWC, myself. The smoke has much to do with evaporating lube at lower temperatures and pressures. Evaporating oil is how smoke making machines work, like the ones used in theatrical productions. You can often reduce the effect by dampening a rag with mineral spirits and rubbing the base of each bullet over it to remove the lube from the part of the bullet that is exposed to hot propellant gases. A certain amount will remain in the bore, however, so this doesn't do it 100%. Faster powder will recoil less, but won't necessarily let you get the same velocity. Just 3.0 grains of Hodgdon Clays will give you the same chamber pressure, lose maybe 20 fps in velocity, but will burn 100% in a 5" barrel. 3.1 to 3.2 grains of Clays will match the velocity, raising pressure just a little, (though it is still very light). 3.3 grains of Vihtavuori N310 will do the same thing. Your current 231 load is burning around 85% and throwing the rest away. Ballistic efficiency with the Clays or N310 is much better, which is why you need less of either. You want to be careful not to double-charge with them accidentally. The suggestion to increase your crimp is valid. The old timers worked on ammo a lot and many found that a roll crimp with about 0.020" of bullet bearing surface protruding from the case mouth was best. It is hard on case life though. The harder crimp increases start pressure and lets a ball powder start burning better. Ball powders are notoriously harder to light than the other grain styles. A heavier bullet will let them have more burning time, too. The H&G 68 style bullets are good for this. If you cast, get the 6-cavity Lee TL 452-200 SWC. The tumble lube bullets are great for accuracy. When I shot indoor matches with 185 grain bullets, I learned to headspace them and other lead bullets on the bullet itself. I was still using taper crimping, but got a big accuracy improvement from going to bullet headspacing, as well as better powder burning. To headspace on the bullet, you take the barrel out of your gun and use it as a gage. You seat a bullet way out too far, run it just far enough into the crimp die to get most of the expander flare flattened so the case will fit in the chamber. Seat the bullet in deeper in increments until the cartridge drops into the barrel with the casehead just flush with the back of the barrel. Check to be sure this longer bullet configuration loads into and feeds from your magazine without a problem. If so, you have your new OAL. If not, just nudge it in slightly deeper until you find the longest OAL that does fit and feed. The object of headspacing off the bullet is to get the bullet started into the freebore and to avoid letting it fall so far into the chamber that it headspaces on the extractor hook, as happens with many .45's. Headspacing on the extractor hook causes the cartridge to pivot at the hook as the firing pin pushes it forward, tipping it in the chamber as it fires. Unlike jacketed bullets, lead can't seem to straighten itself back out again in the bore. The result is a bullet that wobbles a little on the way to the target, making a bigger group. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; March 18, 2008 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Added image

March 18, 2008, 02:18 PM	#14
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	Snuffy, that's jacketed data, which I've seen in my manuals. I'm using lead bullets. Well I give up! If you're waiting for a specific load for your bullets, you may as well put the loader away and forget it. There's so many different cast boolit profiles out there, there could never be any specific loads published. JUST USE THE 180 GRAIN DATA! There's nothing wrong with being cautious, but learn to adapt other loading data to fit your application. You CAN see the powder charges are close to one another all the way up to 230 grains? Also you CAN see that your charge is BELOW any of those? Try the recommended starting charge for the 180 grain LFP, I bet you will see less dirty loads. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

March 16, 2008, 08:33 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I use a 255 gr. home cast SWC with 4.5 grs. of W 231 and CCI primers. I don't get any smoke or dirty action. My lube so far has been beeswax. Maybe your lube is at fault.

March 16, 2008, 08:34 PM	#3
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	I'm using bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. I don't think it's the lube because 230gr RN bullets from the same company haven't given my any issues.

March 16, 2008, 09:26 PM	#4
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	Dave, you may find this strange but try a tighter crimp. sometimes that works.

March 16, 2008, 10:07 PM	#5
somerled Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2005 Location: eastern Kansas Posts: 603	That is a light charge. It might help to go up to 5.0 grains. The case will expand a bit more and be a better seal. A good taper crimp as rwilson suggested will also help. Some people use the Lee factory crimp dies.

March 16, 2008, 11:46 PM	#7
ForneyRider Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2007 Location: Forney, TX Posts: 725	I shot a bunch of 230gr Hornady FMJ with 4.6,5.3,5.8gr W231, WLP with hardly any mess. Wiped the frame off. I looked down the barrel and couldn't tell I any difference from before I shot. Spoiled with the FMJ and JHP. Just not ready to make jump to lead. I lube every 5th case with Lee lube. Smells like fish. __________________ When all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done.

March 17, 2008, 08:44 PM	#8
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	Any other input? Load data is seriously lacking in the 185gr LSWC department.

March 18, 2008, 12:03 PM	#10
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	It's a light load, with a generally fast powder. I've found that lead boolits tend to leave leading or wax residue more frequently, and shoot dirtier, with faster powders. Switching to a little bit slower powder and bringing the powder charge somewhere between the min and max charges will have it burn cleaner and lead less.

March 18, 2008, 12:31 PM	#11
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	Snuffy, that's jacketed data, which I've seen in my manuals. I'm using lead bullets. azredhawk, what powder would you recommend? Would Titegroup fit the bill?

March 18, 2008, 12:50 PM	#13
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	Titegroup's pretty dirty for me too. Not as bad as Unique though. I haven't done a lot of lead loads for autopistols... mostly revolvers. I've done a little for .45acp and 9mm though. 9mm really seemed to like AA#7 that I typically keep around for my .44mag plinking loads. Burned very clean and didn't lead very much at all in my XD9. AA#7 and 45acp so far has only been shot out of my Marlin Camp 45, and I disliked just how far the brass was getting flung with that powder in comparison to Titegroup in the same weapon. I also didn't like how the Micro-Groove barrel on the carbine reacted to lead bullets. I'll load up a batch of lead 230gr 45acp with lighter-end AA#7 charges for my 1911 and get back to you after this weekend. I don't have any lighter lead .45 bullets than that right now. All I've got in the stable right now is: Titegroup AA#7 H110 Triple Seven IMR-4895

March 18, 2008, 06:58 PM	#15
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	I also agree with snuffy, under the logic that: 1. You don't have 185gr load data, but you do have 180gr load data. 2. Your current charge for your 185gr load is too light by several tenths of a grain for a 180gr load. 3. The min/max spread for a 180gr load overlaps with the min/max spread for a 200gr load. 4. It would be a safe assumption to use a 180gr published load within the shared constraints of the 180gr and 200gr published loads for a 185gr bullet. Adaptation, improvisation and the ability to interpret the variables like: A. OAL B. Case capacity C. Primer Type D. Bullet length E. Bullet weight F. Relative burn speeds of similar powders G. JHP versus jacketed ball versus lead are critical skills to the handloader. Don't do anything dangerous... but increasing your powder charge by 0.5gr in THIS SITUATION is a well-reasoned and logical step to take since it fits within the min/max spread of a similar load without approaching maximum boundaries.

March 19, 2008, 03:52 PM	#17
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 941	Dave, I'm kind of surprised that load was able to cycle your 1911 as consistently as it seems to have. As others mentioned, that seems like a very light powder charge for that bullet. I think I'd up the charge to 5.0, probably more like 5.2 or 5.4 grains, depending on the OAL you're using. And generally speaking you can use jacketed data for cast bullet loads if you work conservatively, start low and work up. Mike

March 19, 2008, 04:03 PM	#18
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	Here's a related question. Why do manuals call for lighter powder charges for heavier bullets?