Frangible SBR 5.56 loads?

Beretta686 · August 15, 2013, 03:21 PM

I've taken a liking to keeping my 10.5 inch SBR AR-15 in the truck when rolling around the ranch; as it fits perfectly between the front seat and center console, where it's easy to get to, yet out of sight.

Mostly it's been a coyote/pig gun, but with the massive increase in oil/gas drilling in my area, I've lately caught several people "accidentally" on my place and seeing what's in my barn.

As I'm a fan of deescalation and letting cops do cop work, I've just asked them to leave and written down their plate numbers without ever overtly producing a weapon to the situation, but I'd rather be ready.

Right now I'm running XM855 62-gr rounds through it with no problems. But is there a frangible load anyone would recommend for "social use" that will reliably fragment?

I'd prefer to keep it a 62gr, so my plinking and social ammo are the same zero, but I'm open to lighter rounds.

Willie Lowman · August 16, 2013, 02:26 PM

This isn't really a NFA question...

Frangible ammo is not a good defensive round.

If you are looking for people stoppers to put in that rifle there are selections from all the major manufacturers. Hornady TAP, Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dots.

Theohazard · August 16, 2013, 06:21 PM

Most frangible ammo won't fragment reliably in soft tissue. Some of the best self-defense loads for .223 are ballistic-tipped hollow points like the V-Max loads; they'll fragment violently in soft tissue but will still penetrate far enough in most situations. I use 50 gr. V-Max loads to minimize penetration through walls but still offer sufficient penetration in most situations. If I were running an SBR or I was worried about under-penetration, I might use 55 gr. or a little heavier. Also, keep in mind that loads like TAP are designed to penetrate through barriers like car glass before expanding in soft tissue, so you might get more penetration through walls than you bargained for.

iraiam · August 17, 2013, 08:45 AM

Frangible ammo is designed for ricochet prevention when shooting steel targets.

Applying high school physics to the matter will quickly lead to the realization that anything that can penetrate enough to be an effective defensive round will also penetrate other things.

I don't understand what you mean by "social use" ammunition? The only time a weapon should be produced is when not doing so would lead to death or bodily harm.

I personally load my HD AR with 5.56 NATO 62 grain HPBT, I haven't been able to find any of it for a long time, some of it is marked MK318 MOD-0.

CharlieDeltaJuliet · August 17, 2013, 09:22 AM

I bought 500 off of a good friend, this is surplus ammo. It does great. Kind of cool to shoot steel and see it disintegrate completely.

Beretta686 · August 18, 2013, 06:45 PM

Perhaps "frangible" was the wrong term and I should of used "expanding" instead.

Essentially what I'm asking is: what's the best self-defense load to use in a 10.5 inch 5.56 rifle, at ranges from 0-50 meters?

I know that's not an explicitly NFA question, but I figure the people who use NFA goodies would better understand 5.56 ballistics from a short-barrel, than other people who aren't familiar with SBRs.

Quote:

I don't understand what you mean by "social use" ammunition? The only time a weapon should be produced is when not doing so would lead to death or bodily harm.

By "social use" I mean self-defense. I've seen what bullets due to people in the real world and have been through a thousand escalation-of-force briefings in the military, so I'm probably the last person who's going to want to produce a weapon, much less use it. But if I'm going to, I want to have it loaded with the best possible rounds.

Willie Lowman · August 18, 2013, 07:04 PM

There is no such thing as a "best" round except what works best in your rifle. A quick google found threads on other forums on this topic. Federal Fusion and Barnes TSX apparently expand very reliably in jugs of water.

That said, I trust mine with Nosler 64 grain bonded solid base. A good friend of mine loads his 10.5" Noveske with TAP 75 grain. At 0 to 50 yards all the good mid-weight to heavy 5.56 hunting/defensive rounds should preform as advertised from a 10 inch barrel.

Beretta686 · August 18, 2013, 08:48 PM

Great. Thanks for the leads on ammo. I've never fed mine anything but FMJs and MX855, yet I've also never had a hiccup, even with Wolf and other crappy rounds. So hopefully those will work in mine.

HopeandChange · September 5, 2013, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Perhaps "frangible" was the wrong term and I should of used "expanding" instead.

Essentially what I'm asking is: what's the best self-defense load to use in a 10.5 inch 5.56 rifle, at ranges from 0-50 meters?

I'm a fan of 77 gr SMKs or Nosler Custom Competitions for short barrel frag.

SMK:

Willie Lowman · September 7, 2013, 10:32 AM

What were those fragments recovered from? Water jug? Dead critter?

You can't just show us bullet fragments, we need penetration depths, barrel lengths and all the other little tid-bits. Inquiring minds, you know.

HopeandChange · September 9, 2013, 11:52 AM

Oops.. yeah.. sorry... that was a water jug test. I know there's a limit on what you can learn from a water jug test, but it gets you an idea.

This penetrated about 15" and thumped, but didn't penetrate, the phone book back stop I had set up.

I've read that Doc Roberts thought the 77 penetrated a little too well. It's just impressive at the fragging along with the deep penetration.

HopeandChange · September 10, 2013, 02:05 PM

Here's another using the same back yard methodology...

Nosler Custom Competition 77 on the left, and that 75 gr PRVI bulk bullet from Wideners on the right.

Willie Lowman · September 10, 2013, 02:14 PM

Looks like the jacket on the Privi stayed with the core right till the end.

HopeandChange · September 10, 2013, 02:21 PM

Yeah... it openned up like a hollowpoint. Kinda cool. I sold all my 55 gr XM193 and made the PRVI my bulk end of the world stash round.

Makes for a closer trajectory to the 77 SMKs and Noslers. Fits like a glove.

August 15, 2013, 03:21 PM	#1
Beretta686 Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 761	Frangible SBR 5.56 loads? I've taken a liking to keeping my 10.5 inch SBR AR-15 in the truck when rolling around the ranch; as it fits perfectly between the front seat and center console, where it's easy to get to, yet out of sight. Mostly it's been a coyote/pig gun, but with the massive increase in oil/gas drilling in my area, I've lately caught several people "accidentally" on my place and seeing what's in my barn. As I'm a fan of deescalation and letting cops do cop work, I've just asked them to leave and written down their plate numbers without ever overtly producing a weapon to the situation, but I'd rather be ready. Right now I'm running XM855 62-gr rounds through it with no problems. But is there a frangible load anyone would recommend for "social use" that will reliably fragment? I'd prefer to keep it a 62gr, so my plinking and social ammo are the same zero, but I'm open to lighter rounds. __________________ "Our contract called for 16 cases of rifles and ammunition for $10,000 dollars, not a machine gun...........That is our present to the General"-Pike Bishop “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

August 16, 2013, 02:26 PM	#2
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	This isn't really a NFA question... Frangible ammo is not a good defensive round. If you are looking for people stoppers to put in that rifle there are selections from all the major manufacturers. Hornady TAP, Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dots. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

August 16, 2013, 06:21 PM	#3
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	Most frangible ammo won't fragment reliably in soft tissue. Some of the best self-defense loads for .223 are ballistic-tipped hollow points like the V-Max loads; they'll fragment violently in soft tissue but will still penetrate far enough in most situations. I use 50 gr. V-Max loads to minimize penetration through walls but still offer sufficient penetration in most situations. If I were running an SBR or I was worried about under-penetration, I might use 55 gr. or a little heavier. Also, keep in mind that loads like TAP are designed to penetrate through barriers like car glass before expanding in soft tissue, so you might get more penetration through walls than you bargained for. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

August 17, 2013, 08:45 AM	#4
iraiam Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2012 Location: Lakewood, CO Posts: 1,057	Frangible ammo is designed for ricochet prevention when shooting steel targets. Applying high school physics to the matter will quickly lead to the realization that anything that can penetrate enough to be an effective defensive round will also penetrate other things. I don't understand what you mean by "social use" ammunition? The only time a weapon should be produced is when not doing so would lead to death or bodily harm. I personally load my HD AR with 5.56 NATO 62 grain HPBT, I haven't been able to find any of it for a long time, some of it is marked MK318 MOD-0. __________________ NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999 "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason Last edited by iraiam; August 17, 2013 at 09:05 AM.

August 17, 2013, 09:22 AM	#5
CharlieDeltaJuliet Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2012 Posts: 755	I bought 500 off of a good friend, this is surplus ammo. It does great. Kind of cool to shoot steel and see it disintegrate completely. __________________ " The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government...." - Thomas Jefferson

August 18, 2013, 07:04 PM	#7
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	There is no such thing as a "best" round except what works best in your rifle. A quick google found threads on other forums on this topic. Federal Fusion and Barnes TSX apparently expand very reliably in jugs of water. That said, I trust mine with Nosler 64 grain bonded solid base. A good friend of mine loads his 10.5" Noveske with TAP 75 grain. At 0 to 50 yards all the good mid-weight to heavy 5.56 hunting/defensive rounds should preform as advertised from a 10 inch barrel. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens Last edited by Willie Lowman; August 18, 2013 at 07:21 PM.

August 18, 2013, 08:48 PM	#8
Beretta686 Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 761	Great. Thanks for the leads on ammo. I've never fed mine anything but FMJs and MX855, yet I've also never had a hiccup, even with Wolf and other crappy rounds. So hopefully those will work in mine. __________________ "Our contract called for 16 cases of rifles and ammunition for $10,000 dollars, not a machine gun...........That is our present to the General"-Pike Bishop “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”

September 7, 2013, 10:32 AM	#10
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	What were those fragments recovered from? Water jug? Dead critter? You can't just show us bullet fragments, we need penetration depths, barrel lengths and all the other little tid-bits. Inquiring minds, you know. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

September 9, 2013, 11:52 AM	#11
HopeandChange Member Join Date: September 4, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 65	Oops.. yeah.. sorry... that was a water jug test. I know there's a limit on what you can learn from a water jug test, but it gets you an idea. This penetrated about 15" and thumped, but didn't penetrate, the phone book back stop I had set up. I've read that Doc Roberts thought the 77 penetrated a little too well. It's just impressive at the fragging along with the deep penetration.

September 10, 2013, 02:05 PM	#12
HopeandChange Member Join Date: September 4, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 65	Here's another using the same back yard methodology... Nosler Custom Competition 77 on the left, and that 75 gr PRVI bulk bullet from Wideners on the right.

September 10, 2013, 02:14 PM	#13
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Looks like the jacket on the Privi stayed with the core right till the end. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

September 10, 2013, 02:21 PM	#14
HopeandChange Member Join Date: September 4, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 65	Yeah... it openned up like a hollowpoint. Kinda cool. I sold all my 55 gr XM193 and made the PRVI my bulk end of the world stash round. Makes for a closer trajectory to the 77 SMKs and Noslers. Fits like a glove.