Seating Berry's 200gr SWC .45 auto

Derm95 · December 9, 2001, 06:09 PM

On my first attempt to load this bullet I had a lot of failures to feed. I think the problem was my COAL of 1.272. half of the failures were in stripping the bullet from the mag and probably getting hung up on the feed ramp. Sometimes the cartridge would feed but not fully go into battery.

The cartridges were checked with a case gauge and run through a Lee FCD, so case width wasn't a problem.

Had same problem in Kimber Stainless target and Ruger P97, so throated polished feed ramp not likely a problem.

The Kimber was not cleaned before firing, but only about 50 to 100 rounds since last cleaning. The Ruger was clean.

Midway loadmap had two 200gr SWC's listed. One at COAL of 1..275 and one at 1.265.

My next batch will be loaded at 1.260 with 5.2 gr Bullseye.
Any suggestions?
What data do you use for Berry's .45 acp loads?

grunewaj · December 9, 2001, 08:25 PM

If you're thinking of shooting in bullseye competition, 5.2 gr. of Bullseye is a lot. I shot some with 4.7 gr. and that was much a much stiffer round than was necessary. I haven't tried it on a ransom rest yet so I can't really say what the best load might be.

As for OAL, I think I use 1.215. (for 185 gr. I go for about 1.160) The case mouth should be just below the "shoulder" of the bullet. Mostly the problems I've had with feeding have been with the mag. I've found Metalform mags to be the most reliable - the ones with the convex followers. I think the thing that makes them the most reliable is that the feed lips are set so they get rid of the bullet a little earlier than most "standard" mags.

I hope that helps. Good luck.

slickpuppy · December 9, 2001, 10:09 PM

I use 1.250" with 200 grain swc types. I believe that seems to be a pretty agreeable length with many here. No problems at that length at all with a variety of .45acp pistols.

tonyz · December 9, 2001, 10:17 PM

I just went through 500 berrys 185 swc, in a kimber eclipes II and ruger p90. I set the OAL to 1.205 with no feeding problems in either gun. I set my 200Gr west coast SWC over 4.8 Universal Clays OAL 1.250 . Again no feeding problem with either gun.

Tony

MADISON · December 10, 2001, 07:05 PM

You did not say what gun you were trying to shoote the SWC bullets in.

I do know that the "SMALL" Glocks will not feed SWCers.

Derm95 · December 10, 2001, 07:32 PM

Thanks for the notes.

grune, my mags were a Kimber factory and a Chip McCormick for the Kimber Stainless target, Ruger factory mags for the Ruger P97. Thanks for the powder advice, I'll try the 4.7 grains.

I'm glad to see I was way over length with my COAL of over 1.270. I don't know why I would think of such a length except for the fact that the Midway loadmap had several .45 , 200gr SWC seated that far out.

I'm gonna go load some dummy setups with no primer or powder and feed them through my guns. Forget 1.260, I'll go at most 1.250, maybe shorter. Lots of case room left with the Bullseye and its unlikely to generate excessive pressure.

Madison- Kimber Stainless target and Ruger P97. I just target shoot for fun. I've handloaded about 1000 rounds so far, mostly 230gr round nose.

grunewaj · December 10, 2001, 08:02 PM

I was using actual Berry's 200 gr. plated SWC. Other SWCs can have different shapes and hights.

The idea, as I understand it, is for the edges of the semi wadcutter to match the edge of a 230 ball bullet (the standard .45 ACP bullet) at the same place.

Did that make any sense? If you put your bullet in front of a 230gr. ball bullet, the edge of the top of the SWC should "fit" inside the ball. Geesh, this is tough to discribe.

This way both bullets contact the ramp and chamber on the way in as much the same as possible. That's a little better, I think.

That should get you in the ball park.

As for your load, if you are going to shoot in bullseye competiton, 4.7 gr. is higher than it needs to be, IMHO. If you're needing a power factor, you'll have to check it out with a chronograph.

Good luck,
Jim

gyp_c2 · December 14, 2001, 11:28 AM

Try starting at 1.250...don't forget to lower the dose of powder by 10% to start with either...

Derm95 · December 14, 2001, 07:22 PM

I did use 1.250 and they worked well except for 1 or two out of 50 to 80 rounds failing to feed. Now I was having too much fun to take note if it was the magazines or the bullets being at fault.
I did use 4.7 grains of Bullseye, but next batch is going to 4.2 grains. It still worries me to go below the minumums with plated bullets, but I'm sure there's no risk of going a lot lower and having a bullet stick in the barrel. Maybe just an inability to cycle the slide.

grunewaj · December 14, 2001, 07:35 PM

There will be no risk of getting a bullet lodged in the barrel with 4.2 gr. of Bullseye. You should be careful though. It would really ruin your day if you shot into a clogged barrel.

Most of the problems I've had failing to feed SWCs was related to magazines. The gun was designed to feed 230 gr. hard ball, not SWC. When it happened with me, the nose of the bullet was partially in the chamber and the head of the shell was still being held by the feed lips. If this is what you're experiencing, I think the metalform mags will help.

Good luck.

renaissance7697 · December 14, 2001, 07:53 PM

What I found works best for me is to:

Set up my bullet seating and taper Crimping die/s
To properly seat and crimp a round nosed bullet
of the same weight as the SWC I intend to load.
Then
I lock in and use THAT setting to seat and crimp the SWC.
This gets the profile of the SWC to "match" or "fit within"
the envelope of the round nosed or Hardball that the .45
was designed for.
Another requirement is to have a substantial amount of
the Wad Cutter Shoulder stick out PAST the taper crimped
casing mouth.
This buffers the case edge and helps keeping it from
catching on the chamber mouth.

Works for me!

Derm95 · December 14, 2001, 09:28 PM

Renaissance, can you give me some examples of bullets you have used in 200 swc? Your tip for the same seat used for 230rn sounds logical. My next step was thinking about setting the coal shorter than 1.250 rather than longer and more shoulder. I'll bet if i contact Berry's bullets they should give a good COAL.

Grunewaj, thanks... I have one Kimber mag, one Chip McCormick and two cheapo $8.00 mags for my Kimber gun.

grunewaj · December 14, 2001, 09:43 PM

I've had good service from Berry's, but they seem pretty agnostic about loading parameters. They may give you some hints for COAL but the didn't say much to me about charge weight. (they say use lead recipes but it seems to me that they are closer to jacketed. They as much told me that it was for safety reasons - to get you started on a light load rather than a hotter one). If your problem sounds like the one I described, I would say it is likely the mag. The frequency sounds a lot like what was happening with me and my Springfield before I got the metalform mag.

Good luck

tonyz · December 14, 2001, 10:04 PM

4.2 of Bullseye will make a very accurate low recoil load. Set your OAL to 1.230
with the berry's 200Gr SWC.
BTW I like West Coast Plated bullets there cheaper and more accurate IMHO.
One of my most accurate loads is, 200Gr West Coast SWC, 4.5Gr Bullseye, OAL 1.240 with a Medium Dillon crimp.
Tony

www.westcoastbullet.com

renaissance7697 · December 14, 2001, 10:14 PM

I have used both "Valiant" and "National"
200 grain lead Semi WadCutter bullets.
COAL for each respectively is 1.230 and 1.250 (+- .005)

Trick is to leave a substantial amount of "shoulder"
sticking out beyond the taper crimped case mouth.
Keeps the edge from catching on the chamber mouth
and causing mis-feeds)

Shooting in a "Kimber" Full Size 1911 Govt Style .45 Auto.
Using Chip MCormick 8 and 10 round clips.
(The Magazines supplied by Kimber Suck)

Incidentally I worked up a "Optimum" Load using
my favorite Powder > CLAYS "CLAYS"
( that is NOT CLAYS "Universal" or any other CLAYS Variant
Straight CLAYS)
4.0 grains of CLAYS > CLAYS

Soft - Sweet - and Accurate.

DBR · December 15, 2001, 12:51 AM

I set the shoulder of the bullet about 0.030 above the case mouth. I have found that the Metalform magazines are the most reliable for SWC type bullets. In my experience failure to feed this type of bullet is usually caused by the "bevel" on the chamber entrance not making a smooth transition into the barrel hood. The barrels I have had feeding problems with had the bevel stopping before the hood. Just blending it in has always fixed the problem. The edge of the case gets caught on the unbeveled part of the chamber entrance.

Hope this info helps you.

jtduncan · December 15, 2001, 09:06 AM

Most powder manufacturers are not recognizing copper plated bullets except for Accurate Arms and an occassional Speer TMJ reference.

Consensus appears to be that you can safely load from the top end of the lead data to the middle of the FMJ data. But most are getting best accuracy and function near the starting end of the FMJ data.

And powders like Bullseye, TiteGroup and Clays were meant for reducing since they are target powders in pistol calibers. Just make the slide functions correct and you get solid ejection out to 4/5 feet away from your shooting position.

Any TiteGroup plated SWC recipes BTW?

December 9, 2001, 06:09 PM	#1
Derm95 Member Join Date: December 8, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 31	Seating Berry's 200gr SWC .45 auto On my first attempt to load this bullet I had a lot of failures to feed. I think the problem was my COAL of 1.272. half of the failures were in stripping the bullet from the mag and probably getting hung up on the feed ramp. Sometimes the cartridge would feed but not fully go into battery. The cartridges were checked with a case gauge and run through a Lee FCD, so case width wasn't a problem. Had same problem in Kimber Stainless target and Ruger P97, so throated polished feed ramp not likely a problem. The Kimber was not cleaned before firing, but only about 50 to 100 rounds since last cleaning. The Ruger was clean. Midway loadmap had two 200gr SWC's listed. One at COAL of 1..275 and one at 1.265. My next batch will be loaded at 1.260 with 5.2 gr Bullseye. Any suggestions? What data do you use for Berry's .45 acp loads?

December 9, 2001, 08:25 PM	#2
grunewaj Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 133	If you're thinking of shooting in bullseye competition, 5.2 gr. of Bullseye is a lot. I shot some with 4.7 gr. and that was much a much stiffer round than was necessary. I haven't tried it on a ransom rest yet so I can't really say what the best load might be. As for OAL, I think I use 1.215. (for 185 gr. I go for about 1.160) The case mouth should be just below the "shoulder" of the bullet. Mostly the problems I've had with feeding have been with the mag. I've found Metalform mags to be the most reliable - the ones with the convex followers. I think the thing that makes them the most reliable is that the feed lips are set so they get rid of the bullet a little earlier than most "standard" mags. I hope that helps. Good luck. __________________ The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten, that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods. -- H. L. Mencken

December 9, 2001, 10:17 PM	#4
tonyz Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Location: Wa Posts: 922	I just went through 500 berrys 185 swc, in a kimber eclipes II and ruger p90. I set the OAL to 1.205 with no feeding problems in either gun. I set my 200Gr west coast SWC over 4.8 Universal Clays OAL 1.250 . Again no feeding problem with either gun. Tony __________________ Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained

December 10, 2001, 07:05 PM	#5
MADISON Senior Member Join Date: January 1, 2000 Location: Roanoke, Virginia Posts: 2,678	200gr SWC .45 auto You did not say what gun you were trying to shoote the SWC bullets in. I do know that the "SMALL" Glocks will not feed SWCers.

December 10, 2001, 08:02 PM	#7
grunewaj Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 133	I was using actual Berry's 200 gr. plated SWC. Other SWCs can have different shapes and hights. The idea, as I understand it, is for the edges of the semi wadcutter to match the edge of a 230 ball bullet (the standard .45 ACP bullet) at the same place. Did that make any sense? If you put your bullet in front of a 230gr. ball bullet, the edge of the top of the SWC should "fit" inside the ball. Geesh, this is tough to discribe. This way both bullets contact the ramp and chamber on the way in as much the same as possible. That's a little better, I think. That should get you in the ball park. As for your load, if you are going to shoot in bullseye competiton, 4.7 gr. is higher than it needs to be, IMHO. If you're needing a power factor, you'll have to check it out with a chronograph. Good luck, Jim __________________ The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten, that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods. -- H. L. Mencken

December 9, 2001, 10:09 PM	#3
slickpuppy Senior Member Join Date: August 29, 1999 Posts: 928	I use 1.250" with 200 grain swc types. I believe that seems to be a pretty agreeable length with many here. No problems at that length at all with a variety of .45acp pistols.

December 10, 2001, 07:32 PM	#6
Derm95 Member Join Date: December 8, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 31	Thanks for the notes. grune, my mags were a Kimber factory and a Chip McCormick for the Kimber Stainless target, Ruger factory mags for the Ruger P97. Thanks for the powder advice, I'll try the 4.7 grains. I'm glad to see I was way over length with my COAL of over 1.270. I don't know why I would think of such a length except for the fact that the Midway loadmap had several .45 , 200gr SWC seated that far out. I'm gonna go load some dummy setups with no primer or powder and feed them through my guns. Forget 1.260, I'll go at most 1.250, maybe shorter. Lots of case room left with the Bullseye and its unlikely to generate excessive pressure. Madison- Kimber Stainless target and Ruger P97. I just target shoot for fun. I've handloaded about 1000 rounds so far, mostly 230gr round nose.

December 14, 2001, 11:28 AM	#8
gyp_c2 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2000 Location: Colorado...Louisiana Posts: 387	Try starting at 1.250...don't forget to lower the dose of powder by 10% to start with either... __________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>g2<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< AVERT

December 14, 2001, 07:22 PM	#9
Derm95 Member Join Date: December 8, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 31	I did use 1.250 and they worked well except for 1 or two out of 50 to 80 rounds failing to feed. Now I was having too much fun to take note if it was the magazines or the bullets being at fault. I did use 4.7 grains of Bullseye, but next batch is going to 4.2 grains. It still worries me to go below the minumums with plated bullets, but I'm sure there's no risk of going a lot lower and having a bullet stick in the barrel. Maybe just an inability to cycle the slide.

December 14, 2001, 07:35 PM	#10
grunewaj Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 133	There will be no risk of getting a bullet lodged in the barrel with 4.2 gr. of Bullseye. You should be careful though. It would really ruin your day if you shot into a clogged barrel. Most of the problems I've had failing to feed SWCs was related to magazines. The gun was designed to feed 230 gr. hard ball, not SWC. When it happened with me, the nose of the bullet was partially in the chamber and the head of the shell was still being held by the feed lips. If this is what you're experiencing, I think the metalform mags will help. Good luck. __________________ The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten, that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods. -- H. L. Mencken

December 14, 2001, 07:53 PM	#11
renaissance7697 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 203	What works for me.... What I found works best for me is to: Set up my bullet seating and taper Crimping die/s To properly seat and crimp a round nosed bullet of the same weight as the SWC I intend to load. Then I lock in and use THAT setting to seat and crimp the SWC. This gets the profile of the SWC to "match" or "fit within" the envelope of the round nosed or Hardball that the .45 was designed for. Another requirement is to have a substantial amount of the Wad Cutter Shoulder stick out PAST the taper crimped casing mouth. This buffers the case edge and helps keeping it from catching on the chamber mouth. Works for me! __________________ An Armed Society, Is a Polite Society.

December 14, 2001, 09:28 PM	#12
Derm95 Member Join Date: December 8, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 31	Renaissance, can you give me some examples of bullets you have used in 200 swc? Your tip for the same seat used for 230rn sounds logical. My next step was thinking about setting the coal shorter than 1.250 rather than longer and more shoulder. I'll bet if i contact Berry's bullets they should give a good COAL. Grunewaj, thanks... I have one Kimber mag, one Chip McCormick and two cheapo $8.00 mags for my Kimber gun.

December 14, 2001, 09:43 PM	#13
grunewaj Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 133	I've had good service from Berry's, but they seem pretty agnostic about loading parameters. They may give you some hints for COAL but the didn't say much to me about charge weight. (they say use lead recipes but it seems to me that they are closer to jacketed. They as much told me that it was for safety reasons - to get you started on a light load rather than a hotter one). If your problem sounds like the one I described, I would say it is likely the mag. The frequency sounds a lot like what was happening with me and my Springfield before I got the metalform mag. Good luck

December 14, 2001, 10:04 PM	#14
tonyz Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2000 Location: Wa Posts: 922	Derm95 4.2 of Bullseye will make a very accurate low recoil load. Set your OAL to 1.230 with the berry's 200Gr SWC. BTW I like West Coast Plated bullets there cheaper and more accurate IMHO. One of my most accurate loads is, 200Gr West Coast SWC, 4.5Gr Bullseye, OAL 1.240 with a Medium Dillon crimp. Tony www.westcoastbullet.com

December 14, 2001, 10:14 PM	#15
renaissance7697 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2001 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 203	For Derm95 I have used both "Valiant" and "National" 200 grain lead Semi WadCutter bullets. COAL for each respectively is 1.230 and 1.250 (+- .005) Trick is to leave a substantial amount of "shoulder" sticking out beyond the taper crimped case mouth. Keeps the edge from catching on the chamber mouth and causing mis-feeds) Shooting in a "Kimber" Full Size 1911 Govt Style .45 Auto. Using Chip MCormick 8 and 10 round clips. (The Magazines supplied by Kimber Suck) Incidentally I worked up a "Optimum" Load using my favorite Powder > CLAYS "CLAYS" ( that is NOT CLAYS "Universal" or any other CLAYS Variant Straight CLAYS) 4.0 grains of CLAYS > CLAYS Soft - Sweet - and Accurate. __________________ An Armed Society, Is a Polite Society.

December 15, 2001, 12:51 AM	#16
DBR Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2001 Location: Vermont Posts: 101	I set the shoulder of the bullet about 0.030 above the case mouth. I have found that the Metalform magazines are the most reliable for SWC type bullets. In my experience failure to feed this type of bullet is usually caused by the "bevel" on the chamber entrance not making a smooth transition into the barrel hood. The barrels I have had feeding problems with had the bevel stopping before the hood. Just blending it in has always fixed the problem. The edge of the case gets caught on the unbeveled part of the chamber entrance. Hope this info helps you.

December 15, 2001, 09:06 AM	#17
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	Most powder manufacturers are not recognizing copper plated bullets except for Accurate Arms and an occassional Speer TMJ reference. Consensus appears to be that you can safely load from the top end of the lead data to the middle of the FMJ data. But most are getting best accuracy and function near the starting end of the FMJ data. And powders like Bullseye, TiteGroup and Clays were meant for reducing since they are target powders in pistol calibers. Just make the slide functions correct and you get solid ejection out to 4/5 feet away from your shooting position. Any TiteGroup plated SWC recipes BTW? __________________ The Seattle SharpShooter Reloaded .223 Rem, 9mm, 40SW, 357 SIG, 10mm, 44 Mag, 45 ACP Today?