Lee 4 Die set for 9 mm - use of the 4th die?

[Lost Sheep]

Mr. Schuller,

The purpose of the sizing ring in the Factory Crimp Die is to uniform the cartridge after the bullet has been crimped. If you think about the reloading process the first step is decapping and resizing which is immediately followed by deforming the case by flaring it, pushing a bullet into it and crimping it. The Factory Crimp Die resizes and uniforms each cartridge after all of these steps.

The purpose of the post sizing is the same for both revolver and pistol rounds and that is to uniform each cartridge for the most reliable performance.
The die cannot be mis-adjusted to make the case mouth too small to properly head space.

The Factory Crimp Die was created to make the best possible crimp and to make that crimp more easily adjustable to meet the needs of the individual shooter. We separated the the bullet seating and crimping functions to make this possible.

You could use two bullet seating and crimp dies, one for seating and one for crimping, to approximate what the factory crimp die does but you would not have the post sizing function.


Thanks,

Peter
Customer Service
Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway U
Hartford, WI
phone: (262) 673-3075
fax: (262) 673-9273

Now, I am composing a followup question about oversized cast lead bullets and the reduction in case neck tension if the bullet is sized down just a little and the brass "springs back" a little.

Lost Sheep

[Lost Sheep]

Having received a well-thought-out answer to my first question to Lee, I sent this followup:

Peter,

Thanks for the swift reply. I have a followup question:

If a slightly oversized cast lead bullet deforms the cartridge case enough to make chambering difficult or impossible, the post-sizing corrects that situation. But a question of case neck tension arises.

Because brass is more elastic than lead, the post sizing of the assembled cartridge will size the lead slug down along with the brass case, but the brass case will "spring back" more than the lead. This loosens the friction grip of the brass on the slug, reducing bullet "pull". Bullet pull, of course is an essential element of establshing proper pressure for a consistent powder burn and is of some concert, especially for users of slow powders.

So, here's the followup question:

Has this ever been a concern for handloaders? Or am I seeing gremlins where there are none? I can imagine that a taper crimp digs into the sides of a bullet enough to prevent creep in or out of the case, but would not want to rely on it inadvisedly.

I had one instance (before I had an FCD) of some revolver rounds that I could not chamber. I re-sized them and found that, while the crimp kept them from creeping out of (or deeper into) the case, they easily spun in the case. It would have been scary for anything that did not have a roll crimp into a cannelure, I think.

Thanks for your fine line of products (from a happy user of the Classic Turret and Auto-disks in 7 calibers)

Lost Sheep

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I can see why some would want to seat and crimp in separate operations. If you have a hard time setting up the 3rd die to do both, then it is easier (and safer) to separate the operations. I can see that.

BUT...I am not sold on the carbide sizer ring. Does anyone find that it is actually CONSISTENTLY doing ANY post sizing on a round when it is run up into the die????

I think it is a gimmick, as I would tend to think that post sizing any loaded round would give less neck tension, which could be a real problem with auto loading pistols (and give erratic velocities with revolver rounds that are only held by the crimp). It would have been interesting to chrono those loads, Lost Sheep.

I am eagerly awaitying Lee's response.

Lost Sheep, thanks for taking the time to do this. We all might just learn something at the end of it!!!

[CrustyFN]

Does anyone find that it is actually CONSISTENTLY doing ANY post sizing on a round when it is run up into the die????

I load 9mm, 38/357 and 45 auto. I load lead in 9mm and 45 auto. In my experience the carbide ring never does anything. I don't want it to do anything. I like to use the FCD for the crimp feature.

I think it is a gimmick, as I would tend to think that post sizing any loaded round would give less neck tension, which could be a real problem with auto loading pistols (and give erratic velocities with revolver rounds that are only held by the crimp).

On the two that did get post sized around 4.5 years ago when I checked them the bullet was not loose. I trisd to push it in and turn it and it was still solid. It is also my understanding that the big ammo makers post size every round during their loading process. If that is true then it makes you wonder how dangerous factory ammo is.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Interesting. I guess a lot has to do with how much the brass has been work-hardened. New brass might be soft enough to where the post sizing may not diminish case neck tension.

Getting closer.....

[BDS-THR]

Originally Posted by IllinoisCoyoteHunter

Interesting. I guess a lot has to do with how much the brass has been work-hardened. New brass might be soft enough to where the post sizing may not diminish case neck tension.

Interesting indeed.



Lost Sheep, Lee hasn't responded to an email I sent on Sunday asking the same question - posting sizing of larger diameter lead bullets decreasing the neck tension.

Good afternoon,

Although I have been a happy customer of Lee products, I have one contention. When reloading lead bullets for 9mm,/40S&W/45ACP, I will set aside the FCD and just use the 3 dies.

The sizing of the carbide sizer ring in the FCD is fine for jacketed bullets and similar diameter bullets but problematic for larger diameter lead bullets that result in "brass case spring back" if post-sizing of lead bullet occurs.

Many posted that they prefer to seat and taper crimp in two steps and/or want to use the FCD as a Quality Control die to ensure reliable feeding/chambering of finished rounds - and I am in support of both.

Have you considered offering another FCD with larger carbide sizer ring or FCD that can be fitted with different sizer rings for use with larger diameter lead bullets? Almost everyone I know shoot a lot of lead bullets and would seem there's a big enough market for FCD with a larger sizer ring/replaceable sizer rings.

[BDS-THR]

Here's the response from Lee Precision.

From: "John Lee" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Factory Crimp Die for lead semi-auto calibers
To: "XXX" <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:26 AM

Thanks for the suggestion of a Factory Crimp die with an interchangeable sizing ring. I will think about your suggestion but have serious reservations about producing it and calling it a Factory Crimp die. If we make the sizing ring any larger it will not produce ammunition that will work in any firearm.

I guess we could advertise it as "Produces ammunition that may work in some firearms"

Seriously, the sizer ring is .001 to .002 smaller than a SAAMI maximum cartridge. This produces a finished cartridge that will not exceed Factory Maximum, a dimension necessary to fit in any standard chamber gun. Many users can use larger cast bullets that swell the case in excess of factory maximum and will work perfectly in one or more of their guns. That same crowd frequently will use a taper crimp die to assure "reliable feeding". The taper crimp die nicely squeezes the brass in turn reducing the bullet shank diameter. Had they used the correct diameter bullet they would not have needed a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die.

For any given brass thickness there is a limit on how large your bullet can be and not swell the brass over the SAAMI limit. If you are using selected brass of uniform wall thickness one can successfully use larger cast bullets with out fear of producing ammo that will not chamber properly in any gun. If you are using mixed range brass stick with the bullet diameter that the cartridge was originally designed for and you won't need a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die.

Again thank you for the suggestion for a "screw adjustable crimping die" basically our Factory crimp die with out the sizing ring, it would be a fraction of the cost of Factory Crimp die without the ground and polished carbide ring. Bounce the idea off your friends on the forums and if there is much interest I will give it serious consideration.


Sincerely,

John Lee, President

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

That same crowd frequently will use a taper crimp die to assure "reliable feeding". The taper crimp die nicely squeezes the brass in turn reducing the bullet shank diameter. Had they used the correct diameter bullet they would not have needed a taper crimp die nor a Factory Crimp die.

I would consider this an "over crimp". A taper crimp is not meant to squeeze the brass so that the bullet shank is reduced in diameter to allow for reliable feeding. The taper crimp is merely used to undo the flare on the case mouth. Nothing more, nothing less.

I could see the use of just the taper crimp die with no cabide sizer. This would allow for people like me, who cast their own boolits and are always trying different bullet weights and profiles, to quickly set up the seat and crimp operation when working up test loads.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't take that long to adjust the seat/crimp die when changing boolit profiles, but this would make it a bit faster.

[Lost Sheep]

BDS-THR, it looks like you got a response from the Man himself. I suppose that was worth the wait. At least their answers don't contradict one another.

Below my observations is Lee's response to my followup question, the text of which is found in post #52.

If anyone takes exceptions to Peter's first sentence, please note that I am the one who first mentioned gremlins.

What he doesn't say is what the post-sizing will do to the frictional grip on a badly oversized lead bullet that has expanded the case back out to a larger than SAAMI size. I am (and several of us here are) pretty certain that the grip will be reduced. So, the solution is to size the bullet BEFORE inserting into the cartridge case. Or, if the reduction in bullet pull effort is too great, disassemble the round and start over.

Starting over is probably not too bad an idea at that point. The bullet will have been sized now. Re-sizing the brass with the decapping die (decapping pin removed) would get the brass to the proper dimension to grip the bullet with the proper tension.

Paragraph 2 seems to indicate that Lee sees no market for post-sizing rings in different sizes.

------------- Subject: Re: Lee Precision:
From: "Peter" <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, October 13, 2011 5:25 am
To: [email protected]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Schuller,

I think you are looking for gremlins. We fully test new designs and
purposely try to find ways to make them fail or not perform to
expectations. Or in other words, we work the bugs out before we put it on
the market. We take pride in the quality of our products and strive to be
innovative while trying to keep our products as affordable as possible.
Thank you for using our products. Keep an eye on our web site. We will be
rolling out some new products after the first of the year.

Also, the sizing ring in the factory crimp die is a slightly larger
diameter than the sizing ring in the decapping and sizing die so it does
not affect the crimp.

Thanks,

Peter
Customer Service
Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway U
Hartford, WI
phone: (262) 673-3075
fax: (262) 673-9273

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by IllinoisCoyoteHunter

I can see why some would want to seat and crimp in separate operations. If you have a hard time setting up the 3rd die to do both, then it is easier (and safer) to separate the operations. I can see that.

BUT...I am not sold on the carbide sizer ring. Does anyone find that it is actually CONSISTENTLY doing ANY post sizing on a round when it is run up into the die????

I think that's the point (or points).

1 Seating and crimping in separate steps is easier to set up.

2 Post-sizing fixes only what needs fixing. There (with a properly sized bullet and proper thickness brass) is not usually any need to post-size. SUCCESS! Kind of like insurance. If everything is OK, you don't need it.

Lost Sheep

[BDS-THR]

Originally Posted by Lost Sheep

the solution is to size the bullet BEFORE inserting into the cartridge case.

Amen!

As I have always posted, I believe the original intent of the FCD was the use with jacketed diameter bullets, not larger diameter lead bullets.

As to any reloaded rounds losing neck tension (with or without the use of FCD), Quality Control step of pushing VERY HARD on the bullet against the bench should not result in bullet set back. Bullet set back can occur for many reasons, including post-sizing of bullets.

seems to indicate that Lee sees no market for post-sizing rings in different sizes.

Lee Precision, like any other good business, will make business decisions that are both profitable while meeting/satisfying their customers' needs. John Lee didn't entirely rule out the possibility of a new product (FCD with a removable sizer) as he wrote he will give it serious consideration if much interest existed.

Originally Posted by John Lee, President

Again thank you for the suggestion for a "screw adjustable crimping die" basically our Factory crimp die with out the sizing ring, it would be a fraction of the cost of Factory Crimp die without the ground and polished carbide ring. Bounce the idea off your friends on the forums and if there is much interest I will give it serious consideration.

I wrote to John Lee because FCD discussions have always resulted in opposing views of its use but often left out the discussion of FCD's original intent of using it with jacketed bullets and to shape the case dimensions that are more factory-like for reliable feeding and chambering. As indicated in my email, my contention has always been with its use with larger diameter lead bullets. Having a removable sizer ring would solve this issue and the option of different sizer rings would allow the same operation with larger diameter lead bullets.


So, what say you? Would you be interested in a FCD to use with your larger diameter lead bullets that won't post-size and have the option of taper crimping in a separate step? If the interest/market demand grows for such a product, looks like Lee Precision could make that happen. Perhaps it may be Lee's next innovation.

[Sport45]

If they sold a version of the FCD without the sizing ring for less money then that's the one I'd buy.

I like the rifle FCD just the way it is.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I'd buy just the taper crimp die if it was REALLY cheap. Like $8.00 or less.

+1 on the rifle crimp die. I use my .223 FCD for my cast boolit AR15 loads. Works extremely well at just pushing that slight flare I put on the case mouth to accept my cast boolits. I like it because it is not case length sensitive.

[spacecoast]

Here you go...

http://www.natchezss.com/Category.cf...aper Crimp Die

BTW, the set including the FCD only costs an extra $10 above the cost of the 3-die set.

[603Country]

Ok, here's where I am on this 4th die situation. I loaded up about 100 rounds today and did not use the Factory Crimp Die. I had a couple of stovepipe jams with the reloads, and no issues at all with factory ammo. I was very picky with the reloads, so I was surprised at the 4 or 5 problems I had. I'll load up another 100 rounds tomorrow and I'll use the FCD and see if that brings the ammo to perfect. By golly, we'll just see once and for all if I really need the FCD or not. From today's results, I think maybe I do need the FCD. As for the pistol, it's my new PX4 Beretta and it shoot pretty darn good. I'm getting the hang of the sights, though I liked the sights on the brother-in-laws Glock a little better.

[BDS-THR]

Originally Posted by 603Country

By golly, we'll just see once and for all if I really need the FCD or not.

Thousands of reloaders before us have loaded reliable rounds before FCD; otherwise, every other die manufacturer would be selling FCD or similar dies.

I have reloaded over several hundred thousand rounds without the FCD the past 16 years (they all sit in the box).

Could I suggest some things before you abandon the 3 die set and add the FCD?

1. Could you adjust your taper crimp so that it is .020" wider than the diameter of the bullet? So, if you are using .355" diameter bullet, then use .375" taper crimp.

2. Do a barrel drop test (with barrel out of the pistol) to determine the Max OAL without your bullet nose hitting the start of rifling (spins freely when chambered).

3. Do a function test to determine the Ideal OAL by manually feeding/chambering from the magazine (release the slide without riding the slide with your hand). If it won't reliably feed/chamber, incrementally decrease the OAL until it does.

If your finished rounds pass the 3 steps above and you use enough powder charge to fully cycle the slide, you shouldn't need the FCD.

Thanks.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

you use enough powder charge to fully cycle the slide

This sonds like it may be the problem...maybe along with limp wristing. The FCD has no bearing on what the round does after it is fired. After firing and it is being ejected, the case has already swelled and you are looking at a completely different set of circumstances as to why you are getting stovepipes.

Self-fullfilling prophecy......????

[603Country]

"Limp Wristing"...how interesting. I didn't know that could be a cause of cycling problems. Whenever I shot the pistol, I had no problems at all. When a lady visitor (new to pistols of all types) shot it, there were frequent failures of the spent case fully ejecting from the pistol.

Also, I did drop a lot of reloaded rounds into the barrel (removed from pistol) to check size of the reloads. The reloads didn't drop into the barrel quite as easily as the factory rounds. The case mouth was making contact as desired, but the rounds were a fraction more snug in the chamber. That was the reason that I thought I might run some (or all) of them through the FCD - just to see if that would make a difference. Maybe just a bit more crimp from the seating die (as ya'll suggested) would also fix that problem. I'll try that later today.

The load I'm using right now is 5 grains of Unique behind 115 grain Sierra JHP's. I'm using the Unique mostly because I have so much of it, but as soon as the supply gets about half depleted, I'll switch to something that meters better.

[BDS-THR]

Originally Posted by 603Country

The reloads didn't drop into the barrel quite as easily as the factory rounds. The case mouth was making contact as desired, but the rounds were a fraction more snug in the chamber

So what did reloaders do when they didn't have the FCD?

They adjusted the taper crimp die until the finished rounds dropped into the chamber freely and fed/chambered reliably from the magazine.

Of course, I work up the powder charge so it reliably cycles the slide and extract spent cases while producing accurate shot groups without exceeding the published max load data.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by 603Country

"Limp Wristing"...how interesting. I didn't know that could be a cause of cycling problems. Whenever I shot the pistol, I had no problems at all. When a lady visitor (new to pistols of all types) shot it, there were frequent failures of the spent case fully ejecting from the pistol. (truncated for brevity)

OH Yeah!

I shoot a lot of (informal) targets and have a load that is very light. I discovered that in my Gold Cup, they cycled nicely. In a Government Model, not so much. If I held the (Govt Model) pistol firmly, great. If I held it loosely, stovepipes around 80%-90% of the time. It makes for GREAT jam clearance practice (Tap-Rack-Bang drills). Very convenient.

YOU are as much part of the firing platform of your guns as an aircraft or battleship is to theirs.

Lost Sheep

[Gerry]

After reading that reply from John Lee, I'm even more confused to what the FCD is for. According to the reply it's not going to touch cartridges with standard sized bullets because the case will still be well within SAAMI maximum specifications.

So the only time the FCD will do anything is when we folk who cast and size our own bullets make them larger than "normal" after carefully slugging our barrel to determine the perfect size in order to prevent leading and ensure complete obturation. So only then does the FCD does its stuff and undo all our hard work by deforming our bullet inside the case? Huh?

What am I missing here?

[BDS-THR]

I believe the original intent of the FCD was use with jacketed bullets. When jacketed bullets are seated, there is ever so slight bulge that shows on the case wall. FCD "irons out" these bulges so finished rounds do not show these bulges.

Also, if there was insufficient adjustments by the resizing, flaring and taper crimping dies, FCD would "fix" the outer dimensions of the finished rounds so they would chamber in SAAMI spec barrels.

But the intent of FCD was with the use of jacketed bullets, not larger diameter lead bullets. That's where my contention is coming from and John Lee validated that point in his response.

With the larger diameter lead bullets .001"-.002"+ larger than the typical jacketed bullet diameters, carbide sizer ring would post-size the bullet which may decrease the neck tension due to brass case wall spring back that will lead to bullet set back and aggravate leading of barrel. Many that just wanted to seat and taper crimp in separate steps have knocked out the carbide sizer ring so post-sizing of larger diameter lead bullets don't occur (Note: My comments are specific to straight walled semi-auto cases and not for revolver/rifle cases).

[m&p45acp10+1]

I have post sized countless tens of thousands of rounds using lead bullets in .45 acp. I have as of yet to have a problem with leading, of lack of neck tension. Nor have I had any rounds fail to chamber. In fact all but two rounds have fired. (Some how missed priming 2 cases one morning. No more loading before the second cup of joe.) ) I also have used the FCD with all of my 9mm reloads. Not a single problem. I could probably skip this for both, and get away with it. I have not due to the fact that I do not like clearing a hung up round.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I think some people see it as a "safety net". But if their dies are set up properly from the get go there should be no problems.

I think alot has to do with the confusion of setting up the seating die to do 2 operations. I have heard every excuse why people use it: 1.) "The ammunition turns out better and more uniform"...false. 2.) "I don't shave lead when I seat and crimp in 2 steps"...neither do I, this is a sign of too much taper crimp. 3.) "My rounds won't feed properly if I don't use it"... one of your other dies is not set up properly. The list of excuses goes on and on and the bottom line is they don';t know how to set up the 3rd die properly. I don't want to sound harsh, but you know this is true.

As I said before, I can see it speeding up the process, especially if working up loads with different profile bullets, but thats about it.

[Gerry]

I do still have a separate crimp die, but it just removes the bell created for accepting the bullet. My station one die (decapper-resizer) actually makes the case smaller than the minimum specification bullet diameter so that even a jacketed bullet must actually be pushed into the case with force, expanding the case a bit as it goes and creating the tension that holds it. This causes the finished round to have a slight hour-glass shape, and you can tell visibly and with a micrometer where the base of the bullet ends inside the case.

I've never had a feeding problem due to not enough crimping, likely because the chamber of the handgun barrels is considerably larger in diameter than the part of the barrel with the rifling. You might say I don't crimp at all. I just remove that little bell enough so that no space is between the case mouth and the bullet, mainly so that sand and dirt doesn't get jammed in there. And a lot of my bullets end up in the sand because many ROs aren't good enough to catch them after they say "if you are finished, unload and show clear"

Between my wife and I, we shoot about 1,000 rounds per week, and I've yet to have a round fail to chamber properly because of a lack of crimping down the bullet holding part of the cartridge. I do have a FCD for the .45 ACP, but the resizing ring never touched it (even with lead 1 to 2 thousandth's over-sized). I use the plain Dillon taper crimp with the 9mm in the XL 650, and it's set up just to remove the bell - nothing more.

I still don't know why the resizing ring exists in the FCD, and personally think it's just a gimmick. But that's just my opinion.