January 23, 2012, 05:18 PM | #1 | |
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Lead warnings
Being a retired metallurgist I've had some experience with lead. It's commonly added to steel (usually bar stock) for machineability and also to brass, copper and bronze for the same reason. It makes the cutting tools cut like butter.
One of purchasing guys decided he'd help out the guys in the shop and told the casting company to double the lead in the bronze castings (without any concern for material strength etc). I was talking to the owner of the foundry and he said he had to back off on the lead as his WHOLE workforce got severe lead poisoning from breathing the vapors. And this was a large foundry. My point of this post is, when you guys are pouring lead, don't do it in a confined area and preferably use some kind of a mask. No kidding! If you don't realize how bad lead poisoning can be read this... The workers in the foundry all had these symptoms! Quote:
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January 23, 2012, 07:31 PM | #2 |
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If they are adding it to steel then I would assume both the steel and the lead would have to be molten, right? The temp at which steel melts FAR, FAR exceeds the temperature lead does. So when the lead is mixed with the molten steel some is vaporized (and can be ingested in the system). We work at levels where lead is not vaporized. Thanks for the concern though.
There are NUMEROUS people on this forum and Castboolits forum that have their lead levels checked regularly, and as long as you keep your fingers out of your mouth while handling lead you are not gonna get poisoned from casting.
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January 23, 2012, 10:52 PM | #3 | |
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If lead is melted there is vapor. Brass melts at very low temperatures but as you said not nearly as low as lead. The lead added does not go into "solution" (alloy) with the base metal, it is in the form of lead "non-metallic inclusions" which act as lubricant when the cutting tool goes through.
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January 23, 2012, 11:21 PM | #4 |
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As ICH said, watch your hygiene when handling lead and avoid casting in small enclosed areas and you will be fine. Wash your hands WELL with hot soapy water after handling lead and keep your hands away from your face as well. No smoking or eating while handling molten lead and you will not have a problem. It is not a bad to have your lead levels checked on a regular basis as well especially if you are handling large quantities of lead.
Also, if you are worried about handling lead, send me a PM and I'll take all of that nasty evil toxic material you care to send me. I have room to store another couple thousand pounds of it. |
January 23, 2012, 11:22 PM | #5 |
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Show me info where it show the temp at which lead vaporizes.
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January 23, 2012, 11:28 PM | #6 | |
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January 23, 2012, 11:49 PM | #7 |
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I once worked at a tetra ethyl lead plant where lead was heated just enough to make it liquid. Getting “leaded” was an occupational hazard there. Yes, lead does put off vapors even though barely molten.
All liquids put off vapors as far as I know. Water for example. It doesn’t have to boil to put off water vapor. Ever seen a cloud? Clouds are made of tiny droplets of water but the tiny droplets are formed from water vapor which came from water which wasn’t boiling. Mercury, which is a metal, is molten at room temperature and puts off vapors just sitting there. Not all warnings are hype.
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January 23, 2012, 11:52 PM | #8 |
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Ive been doing electronic manufacturing for 7 years now, i inhale lead fumes every day doing solderinh. No ill effects yet. I have a fan to blow some of it away.
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January 24, 2012, 12:16 AM | #9 | |
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ClayInTx has it right. Ignore this warning if you want. I've just seen some people with symptoms you wouldn't believe. It's not a pretty sight.
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January 24, 2012, 12:55 AM | #10 |
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I too have been casting indoors since '72. The first 15 years in a drafty basement, no ventilation
Since then, I've been it the same spare bedroom as the rest of my loading gear. Again, no ventilation. The last 3 years, I've been getting tested for my lead levels, the HIGHEST was 7.0. That with shooting at an indoor range in wintertime. A lot of hype from the govmint is just junk science. Studies that come to a forgone conclusion by cherry picking studies that agree with your agenda, and ignoring studies that say the opposite. Same goes with the so-called toxicity of lead. Lead is NOT absorbed through your skin. It must be ingested. Lead does not fume below 1200 degrees. So the smoke you see from fluxing is just that, SMOKE not lead fumes. Fired primers are much more of a problem, the lead styphonate is easily absorbed when the dust from fired primers is inhaled. I'm sure the surfaces of my loading/casting room are contaminated with lead. If I had any young kids around or a pregnant female, I'd be real worried. I live alone, no one to rag on me, tell me what to do. I just wash my hands real good when I leave that room. Works for me. All the knowledge I've been able to accumulate says there's no real danger from home casting lead bullets. It's common knowledge that lead does not throw vapors under 1200 degrees Fahrenheit. Does it have vapors once molten? Yes, but they stay tightly confined to the surface of the lead. You would have to work at it to get them airborne, something to suck them off very near the surface of the lead. That means deliberately using a hose or straw to inhale the vapors. Our casting pots seldom go above 900 deg. Normal casting is seldom above 750 deg. Lead boils at 3180 deg. THEN fumes vigorously. If added to molten steel, it would certainly be throwing fumes, which is why foundries and steel mill workers are poisoned. Lead oxide is much more dangerous than metallic lead. Smelters are dealing with Galena ore which has lead oxide in it. So smelter workers are in danger of getting poisoned.
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January 24, 2012, 04:25 AM | #11 | |
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January 24, 2012, 06:53 AM | #12 |
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Lead vapor is a gas and therefore must behave as a gas. That means it expands to occupy all the space in a container (room). That's why you can smell ammonia or mercaptan even if you are on the opposite side of the room from the spill. Of course, you never get perfect mixing and heavier gasses tend to congregate in low areas but there are no absolutes. If lead vapor is in an open space you can be exposed just like you can with mercury.
Now don't get me wrong, there's not much lead in the room. Lead, even at melting temperatures has a very, very low vapor pressure. This means it has little volatility. The downside of low vapor pressure is that Dalton's law says you can have a lot of it in the air since its low partial pressure doesn't have much impact on the atmospheric pressure. I don't think casting is dangerous if minimal precautions are taken. I wouldn't downplay the risks either. My Uncle lived to a ripe old age even though he smoked most of his life. He may have had a strong opinion that because he was healthy, smoking was not harmful. My mother-in-law, who died a couple years ago from emphysema would probably disagree...
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January 24, 2012, 04:53 PM | #13 | |
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Those evil wheelweights were apparently falling off everybodys tires, then attacking innocent children, poisoning them. So good ol' commifornia outlaws them. Other states follow suit, so now we have much bigger iron and zinc weights on our tires. Gone are the consistent source for material for our hobby. That just goes to prove that the hype put out by the EPA is just that, HYPE! They have to justify their existence or loose their power. Also, if they can get rid of lead for boolits, they can back-door-control guns. Look at the junk science they used to ban lead in bullets in commifornia. Supposedly the lead bullets were ALWAYS in the gut pile from game animals shot while hunting and predator control. Buzzards, oops CONDORS, eat the gut pile, then immediately die from lead poisoning. Everybody on this forum knows that 90% of the bullets pass-through game to be lost in the landscape.The other 10% come to rest in the body of the deer. I never found a bullet in the guts of a whitetail deer here in WI. When I cast, there's a certain smell present. Kind of metallic? When I'm done and shut down, after a couple of hours I make a visit to the bathroom,(next to the man-cave), I smell that still in the air. It smells like money!! Here's a good article by Glen Fryxell over at LASC. Simply following hygene is all that's required. http://www.lasc.us/FryxellSafeHandlingLead.htm Now I'll hit the ball back in your court. If you fear getting poisoned by lead you have 2 choices. 1. don't load or shoot anything lead, then shoot only jacketed bullets out-of-doors with a good wind in your face. 2. get a hax-mat suit, get a positive flow exhaust hood over your pot, wear gloves, a face mask, then only cast during the full moon. Note; your lead-blood levels won't be any better than mine are while I'm NOT taking ANY of those silly precautions!
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January 24, 2012, 06:31 PM | #14 |
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Well I'm not a fanatic about it snuffy and the only thing that I'd worry about is casting bullets but since I have no experience doing it I'll just be quiet. I never worried about lead in game or the environment. Only the fumes from the story that foundry owner told me. I was only relating a real occurence that happened that might affect guys that cast bullets. Shame on me.
And if I did cast I have a good ventilation system going .... just in case. (and I don't believe in global warming or solid copper bullets!) BTW, I used to work for Rockwell International in Oshkosh many years ago and my oldest daughter lives there. I used to drive from Wautoma every day. Now I'm in the Wisconsin crime capital of Racine. Last edited by warbirdlover; January 24, 2012 at 06:36 PM. |
January 24, 2012, 07:55 PM | #15 |
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WBL, I think we've come to an agreement on the amount of over-caution and misinformation about the so-called hazards of casting lead bullets. I IS a concern if you have small children around. I just wanted to counter your post in case a prospective caster looked at it, then got scared away.
The ol' rock huh? Small world, I just retired from Axle Tech, what the axle plant became after Rockwell bailed. In fact, I started within weeks after it was sold to Meritor. General dynamics now owns the plant, it's coming back strong under their leadership. Still the old building by the river, BUT all the machines are gone, just an assembly plant now.
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January 24, 2012, 08:04 PM | #16 |
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Thinking back to all the split-shot I used to bite to close them and then bite again to open them you think I would be dead. I would go fishing at least once a week for years. I have been loading lead bullets and casting for five years. I have my lead levels checked every year when I have my blood work done for other problems. My lead level number is 8. I agree we need to be careful and use good hygiene but I don't think it's as dangerous as the govmint would like us to believe.
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January 24, 2012, 08:42 PM | #17 |
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Good point on the split shot. I've eaten tons of that stuff too!
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