August 2, 2013, 05:39 PM | #1 |
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I need practice
You guys have probably seen this or a variation of this hundreds of times but I'm going to tell a short story anyway.
Yesterday I went down to the IWL range with a couple standard 100 yard rifle targets set up at approx 15yds and fired about 8 mags of 10 shots at the five circles on the sheet. Groupings were about 3" with a few 6-10" flyers, not bad for taking about 4 months off I thought. Then I found a silhouette target that had only a couple of holes in it so put it up and moved it to about 7 yards, loaded 2 mags with 10 rounds each and shot in groups of 5, 3 torso, 2 head, very rapid fire. Learned that I need practice and that I better get better in case I need to be. Most shots were left of target, may have grazed an outer body area, but clearly not center mass shots. The 4th set of 5 was a little better, not much. It is one thing to shoot 2-handed slowly at a target, another thing entirely to rapid fire. May need to look into IDPA or similar to improve and correct the left pull. Perhaps I need to borrow a 9mm or .45 and see if the recoil makes a difference. Either way, I need practice. Thought I'd share. FS |
August 2, 2013, 11:30 PM | #2 |
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You don't say how long you've been shooting nor what caliber. It must be bigger than .45 if you call that less recoil. I would suggest 9mm for less recoil. Less recoil will help, but it sounds like you've got more problems than that.
I think any kind of action shooting will improve your shooting. If you are concerned about self-defense, IDPA and USPSA are both good practice. I do both every week. Find a professional instructor to give you a private lesson to evaluate your shooting. He will look at stance, grip, trigger pull, and other things (flinching, recoil anticipation, etc.). A one hour lesson shouldn't cost more than $50 or so and is well worth it. He will give you things to work on. |
August 2, 2013, 11:45 PM | #3 | |
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On the other hand, shooting within my ability never seems to feel really fast even when the timer says otherwise. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it takes time to progress from shooting slowly and accurately to shooting rapidly and accurately and that progress is best made by trying to eliminate wasted time as opposed to trying to go fast. From a practical standpoint, what does that mean? It means a lot of things, but here are a few to work on. You don't need to stare a hole into the paper over the front sight. Once you see a good sight picture, you're good to go--let the shot break. If it doesn't hit where the sights are pointing then you yanked the trigger and you need to work on trigger control. Don't waste time blinking and don't lose track of the front sight. If you have to open your eyes after every shot and reacquire the front sight, you're wasting time that is better used lining up the front sight. If you're not seeing muzzle flash for each shot then you're blinking and that's wasting time. You can shoot or you can score, but you can't do both well. While you're shooting, SHOOT. Make sure you're working your fundamentals properly and the on-target results will take care of themselves. Resist the temptation to count hits or keep score between shots. When you're done shooting THEN you can score. You need to be able to maintain your grip through the entire shot string. If you find that you're having to adjust your grip between shots, or every other shot, then you need to work on your grip, or look for a handgun/cartridge system that fits you better. You shouldn't be having to work to line up the sights for followup shots. If the gun isn't settling back into a decent sight picture after recoil then you need to work on controlling the gun. You can't keep it from moving, but you can adjust your grip and stance so that the recoil causes the gun to move consistently and settle back after recoil so that it's more or less in the same position it was before the shot. Don't let your trigger finger get lazy. Don't RUSH, but try to keep your trigger finger in motion. It should always be either pulling or releasing the trigger. Don't let the gun push you around. If you're finding that the cumulative effect of recoil during a shot string is pushing you back or changing your stance, then you need to work on a more aggressive stance. Lean forward a little bit, position your weight a little more on your forward foot and keep your knees bent a little bit. In other words, you want to make your shooting more efficient, more smooth. That will pay immediate dividends in speed without costing you significantly in terms of accuracy. As you continue to practice, you will find that your speed increases even more--but the focus should never be on TRYING to go fast, but rather on trying to be efficient.
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August 5, 2013, 10:06 PM | #4 |
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GJ, I've only been shooting handguns for about a year and a half, and have a couple of FNP40s. I have for the most part tried to take advice from here and work it into my practice sessions and generally have trained myself away from flinching and anticipating the recoil. I've shot a few other calibers but don't see much difference when shooting a full sized gun. On the other hand, shooting a LCR .357 leaves quite an impression, and a colt 1911 .22 hardly moves or makes a sound when I shoot.
John, thanks for the advice also. When I shoot, I will change my stance occasionally to find the most stable position. Not blinking is where I need work and while I try to watch the shell fly and gas discharge, I most often blink anyway and need to keep the front sight in sight. I'm working on that and will work on the suggestions you gave. Appreciate the help, FS |
August 6, 2013, 08:39 PM | #5 |
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For the most part, JohnSKa offers good advice. I might add that if you are a right handed shooter, you are probably anticipating the trigger break which causes you to yank the gun to the left.
Further, develop your accuracy and the speed will follow. An important element of developing your marksmanship and speed can be accomplished in the comfort of your own home without having to spend tons of moola on ammo. Dry practice will take you where you want to go by refining trigger and breath control. Pick your"target". When the trigger breaks your front sight should be exactly where it was prior to the break. Practice, practice, practice. Develop your accuracy and as I said, the rest will fall into place.
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August 6, 2013, 09:04 PM | #6 |
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I'm not an expert but I think that, for a right-hander (I'm a lefty) shooting to the left is not recoil related; it's often caused by contacting the trigger too close to the tip of the finger (too little finger). Shooting to the right would be too much finger.
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August 7, 2013, 01:07 AM | #7 | |
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When focusing your eyes, you can have the rear sights or front sight or target in focus. Focus on the front sight. The target will be a little fuzzy, but that's OK. Always focus on the front sight. See the front sight all the time; see it rise and fall back. There should be a 70%-30% (some say 60-40) balance in grip strength between your weak or support hand and your strong or trigger hand. When you squeeze too tightly with your strong hand you interfere with your trigger finger which needs to move smoothly and easily. I find my own accuracy is always better when I grip strongly with my support hand. As JohnKSa said, don't look at where your shot went until you are done shooting. This is because you will look too quickly and mess up your follow through. Also, if you are learning to shoot for self-defense, than you need defensive like shooting practice all the time. When the SHTF, you will be under a lot of stress and will automatically do what you trained to do, which isn't necessarily what you want to do if you didn't train correctly. Your fine motor control goes to hell. You get tunnel vision. That's why some kind of timed competition helps because it puts some pressure on you. It will give you a good idea about tunnel vision. It's also important to learn to clear jams. Once way to practice is to get some snap caps (dummy rounds) and in a magazine of 10, place two or three randomly. Make sure you don't know where they are. When your gun goes "click" instead of "Bang", you'll have to rack the slide. This will also help you notice if you are anticipating recoil or flinching. |
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August 7, 2013, 01:11 AM | #8 |
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I need practice
If you think you are inaccurate there, go shoot a competition where you actually have some pressure. It will make you a better shooter, and it can help in the event that you ever have to use a firearm to defend yourself.
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August 7, 2013, 01:29 AM | #9 |
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The thing about rapid fire is that it doesn't necessarily mean emptying a whole mag at one target as quickly as possible.
Try two or three shots and then switch targets. Make each shot carefully and concentrate on follow through. Try to make your speed by retaining your sight picture and bringing you gun back in line. Trigger pull should be smooth. |
August 11, 2013, 09:15 AM | #10 |
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Concentrate on hitting COM with the FIRST shot. That's the most important one.
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August 11, 2013, 10:49 AM | #11 |
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What worked for me was moving the target close enough to hit and ignoring the looks and s******s from everyone else. Which turned out to be close enough for powder residue on the paper...
When I could hit the target reliably at that range, I moved the target back a yard until I could hit it reliably again. Wash, lather, repeat. Past a certain point I start patterning like a shotugn, but I know what my group size should be at any given range. My gun is just fine, I'm just a lousy shot... but I know fairly accurately how lousy I am, and in a tactical situation, I can make an informed decision about whether it's safe to take a shot or if I'm more likely to be shooting scenery. |
August 11, 2013, 11:02 AM | #12 |
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Several things needed.
Get a dummy all metal 'non-gun' that is the same dimensions as your defensive gun. Also, if possible, a .22 version of your defensive gun. In the house or garage use the non-gun to practice drawing, pivots, retention shooting, concealed draws, weak handed draws, etc.. that way alot of your gun handling skills will be learned before the range, not on the range. Then on the range a .22 version allows you to go back to the basics and again practice. Try to draw and fire no more than 2 shots per string. Re-holster and do it again. All shooting should be from the leather (or Kydex as is used alot today.) You can practice such things as hip shooting, transitions, weak handed and strong handed shooting, etc... Go slow at first and by then end of the session speed up some. Then go to your defensive gun and redo the basics all over. By the end of the session your shooting arm should be very tired and sore the next day. After a few months (with weekly shooting practice and nightly gun handling skills with the non-gun) THEN go do a IDPA match! The IDPA match is not training but a test to see WHERE YOU ARE with your training. Note weak performance areas and adjust your training to get better in those weak areas. And then make this a hobby/avocation and not a chore to do and you will find your skills far better than you ever though they could be. Deaf
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September 23, 2013, 11:41 PM | #13 |
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Another quick comment: Rapid fire drills need to be developed by starting slow and working your way into speed and accuracy. If your rounds are left, assuming you are a right handed shooter, it may be one or a combination of two different faults. The most obvious is that you are slapping the trigger anticipating the trigger break and/or you are squeezing the gun too hard. You should have a relaxed grip on the gun with your support hand pushing isometrically against the strong hand to keep the gun from moving laterally and reducing muzzle flip. Keep your eye on the front sight and back on target between shots as rapidly and as comfortably as you can. It is a skill that must be developed. Don't exceed your skill level...it must be built up.
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September 24, 2013, 08:27 AM | #14 | |
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The problem when trying to go fast is the "trying" part of it actually keeps you from going fast. Instead of concentrating on speed, concentrate on smoothness. As the smoothness improves, the speed naturally increases. My MA students quickly found themselves throwing faster and faster strikes "naturally" without actually trying to do it. I sometimes think speed is overrated. In competition, it is everything, but in true SD situations, I am not so sure. True, there are situations where the second shot of a double tap came just in time to prevent a shot from being returned. But that can be said for any speed. The product of speed times accuracy is sometimes thought of as a good indicator of effectiveness. But I am thinking shot placement trumps speed. A poorly place fast shot is probably not as good as a well placed slower shot. Anyway, this is a fantastic thread with great advice from so many. I think I am actually going to print it out. Thanks folks! Lou |
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September 24, 2013, 08:50 AM | #15 | |
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OP, I've been shooting pistols since I was 12 years old. Never allowed to do rapid fire or double/triple taps. My uncles and my father always brought me to the range to shoot target. As I got older and before the police academy I started training. Not just shooting, but training. I went above great because of all those years adding up in over a decade of shooting, learning trigger reset and recoil management was an excellent muscle memory tuning that I was blessed with, but at the time I didn't understand why they didn't let me. Also, a lot of ranges here in Miami don't allow it anyways. My eyes opened up like Daniel-san in Karate Kid, with painting the fence and waxing the car. You gotta crawl before you can walk. |
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September 24, 2013, 10:08 AM | #16 |
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Have a look at this past thread on How to improve speed while maintaining accuracy with semi-auto pistols?. There were some good tips there.
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September 24, 2013, 11:50 AM | #17 |
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As it has already been stated but , make sure you have mastered the fundamentals enough before trying to improve speed and accuracy.
Stance: Knees unlocked, Upper lean driving the pistol to the target. Head and shoulders forward. Grip: proper finger/thumb placement. Proper placement and grip of supporting arm. Proper resting position and use of it as well. Palms to chest, weapon pointed down range. Trigger: Proper finger placement. Fluid pressing/squeezing trigger even quickly so long as your not jerking. Sights: Proper sight picture does not mean perfect shot bulls eye aim. It's close picture, press, recover, close picture press recover. If one thing is off, grip, stance, trigger pull, go back and work on it. get those fluid and memorized to muscle. Then work on speed.
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September 24, 2013, 01:07 PM | #18 | ||
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To lay it all out:
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