black powder

[wap41]

has anyone compared 4F swiss to 3F triple seven to see which is more powerful?I'm thinking of using one in my ruger old army.

[deerslayer303]

I doubt Swiss is any more "powerful" than 777. But hey giver er a whirl, thats what its all about.

[wap41]

4F swiss would put more powder in than 3F triple 7 because it's finer granuals therefore should be more powerful but how much?

[Boomer58cal]

If one is more powerful than the other it's probably only by a few %. Not enough to get all hot and bothered about. If you really want to know shoot both over a chrono and let us know what you get.

[Hawg]

Just going from what I've read, Swiss 3F is about the same as T7

[Captchee]

has anyone compared 4F swiss to 3F triple seven to see which is more powerful?

the 4F swiss will be by a LOOOONNGGGG shot .

now if you meant to say 3F Swiss compared to 3F T7 , then i would say they are fairly close . i think Swiss is faster , at least it feels like it to me "IE not scientific “
I also find the swiss doesn’t leave the nasty crud ring nor do I have to clean out Type writer ribbon type fouling from my SXS like I do with T7 or Pyro

[wap41]

Captchee, I meant 4F.I am thinking about using it for a hunting load and want as much power as I can get.I thought it would be more powerful but haven't tried it yet.Swiss isn't exactly cheap so I thought I might find out for sure from someone who has used it.

[Wild Bill Bucks]

I've never put either through a chrony, but almost everything that I have read about T7, says to back it up by 10% when substituting for BP, so I would assume that the T7 is more potent.

[woodnbow]

Wap needs to put in some time with the chronograph and report back... My speculation is that 4f swiss will have more energy and give more velocity per measured charge than either 3F triple 7 or 3F Goex. It should best Goex by a larger margin than Triple 7. This is for short barreled guns only.

[BirchOrr]

Any of these guys here will tell you, there is a trade off. More power (hotter load) less accurate. T7 is pretty hot and could be hotter than 4F Swiss. Never did a comparison of the two.

I competition shoot an ROA slow fire @ 25 and 50 yds. Also a hunter. For hunting, I shoot 40gr Swiss 3F. Perfect power load @ 50 yds. (I personally wouldn't take a shot at a trophy buck with a pistol further than that). For competition, I shoot 28.5gr of Swiss 2F. (not a typo). There is supposedly less peak pressure with the 2F and I've found it throws the ball more consistent giving me an edge in accuracy and tighter groups. Someone with greater knowledge of chemistry than I might be able to explain this.

The ROA is designed to shoot 50gr of BP (Goex). I use a Wonder Wad over the powder and a .457 ball in both instances. I've also found seating the ball as close to the end of the cylinder as possible gives the greatest accuracy. Thus with the 28.5 load, I use 11.5gr of cornmeal on top of the WW. With the 40gr load I don't use any. The WW takes up 5 to 6gr of space.

You will get more compaction with Goex than Swiss. T7 recommends little to no compaction. You will see that my formulas add up to roughly 45gr. This is due to the compaction factor. The amount of compaction I get with this formula (for Swiss powder) seems to be perfect.

If you just want maximum power, I wouldn't hesitate to load up 45gr. of T7 (with grease over the ball) and let er rip. Or you could load up 50gr of Goex and again grease over the ball.

Good luck and all the best,

Birch

[Boomer58cal]

Ahh... I mist the 3f vs 4f. The smaller grained powders are definitely faster burning. I shoot 3f in everything I own. Even my .62 with 900g bullets. I would be ify on using 4f unless the manufacturer oked it, because 4f is generally considered flash powder. Be safe. I wouldn't want you to loose and eye or finger.

[Captchee]

i wouldn’t use 4F for a load . you may not like the outcome .
while BP is basically the same in that the different grade all come from the same mix . the smaller the grind the faster the burn and the higher the resulting pressure . Its also not multipliable. In other words if we were to say that 40 grains produced X then 80 grains would produce 2X that amount . It just doesn’t work that way
there was a time when we could get BP in grades all the way up to 10F which was flash powder for cameras . Now and then I can still get 5F but its really made for fireworks and blasting , not for muzzle loading use .
Synthetics are different in that instead of using wood as a carbon base , they use sugars as a carbon base.
that’s why the most times burn hotter because the carbon is more pure .
Same with Swiss being alittle higher grade then say Goex . Willow has higher carbon content to its charcoal
But anyway back to the 4F question . As was said T7 is reduced by 10 grains to come into the ball park of the same pressure as a like load of BP . Same thing with Pyro .
But 4F is way different . It wont be comparable . The use of it as a load , would make a very hot load .

[swathdiver]

If you want to know about using 4F for hunting, ask the fellas who use it at the Yahoo Percussion Revolver Group.

Swiss 4F is the closest thing we have to 1860s Hazard Pistol Powder. The powders we generally use today are not as powerful as then. When using conicals, use about 1/10 powder to bullet weight and the gun may still crack 1000fps.

[B.L.E.]

there was a time when we could get BP in grades all the way up to 10F which was flash powder for cameras

Flash powder for cameras used powdered aluminum or magnesium instead of or in addition to charcoal. It's purpose was to make a lot of light when it burned. Regular black powder, no matter how fine the grade, does not make the bright flash needed for photographs.

Modern flashbulbs, the ones that you could only use once, are filled with magnesium wool and oxygen, the camera battery only serves as an igniter.

[Captchee]

Goex ,used to have on their web site information on grades of powder and their use .
they showed 10 F as camera powder .
Now what camera that went in ??? I couldn’t tell you
As to 4F in cartridges ,,,, that I don’t know about . Im completely new to the cartridge game when it comes to reloading .

Now when it comes to muzzle loading rifles . That another story . Been doing that stick for 30 some years . In my spare time I even worked for the MoI for a time .
I can make every component for a rifle or pistol “non cartridge “ from locks all the way to powder .
But again the cartridge thing is all new to me . So if what swath driver is saying is the case , that’s where I would look for information .
I still find it rather hard to belive that T7 would come anywhere close to an equal charge of 4F though .

[B.L.E.]

Lyman published velocities from a ROA using various grades of powder including 4Fg. I can't find the book right now but I remember velocities in the 1050 fps range using Goex 4Fg. It's not dramatically more powerful than 3Fg.
I have shot 40 grain loads of Goex 4Fg in my ROA. You do get some looks from other shooters at the range.

[Captchee]

i have most of the Lyman manuals back to the mid 1970s , B.L.E
would you remeber which one that was in ?
i would like to look it up. when i goet the time

[B.L.E.]

It was in the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. IBM 9847251
First printing Dec 1974
sixth printing Jan, 1985

They modified an open top Colt cylinder so that lead crushers could be used to measure pressure, in LUP, lead units of pressure.

Here's their results out of a Colt with an 8 inch barrel, .44 caliber.

Goex FFFg, .451 RB

Charge__Velocity__Pressure LUP

19______706_____5,540
22______752_____5,540
25______805_____5780
28______885_____6,380
31______933_____7,060
33______979_____7,340
37______1032____7,940

Goex FFFFg, .451 RB

19______772_____5,240
22______797_____5,420
25______868_____6,080
28______881_____6,320
31______859_____6,500
34______953_____7,240
37______960_____7,420

I know that doesn't look right but I double checked the book and that's what they report, I almost think that maybe they mixed the results of the two up, however, the 4f did have higher velocities in the lower loads but not in the maximum loads. I dunno

Here's bullet data, Lyman #450229 bullet mold, 155 grains.

Goex FFFg
19______705_____6,820
22______768_____7,520
25______882_____7,880
28______861_____8,820

Goex FFFFg
19______759_____6,060
22______814_____7,400
25______835_____7,660
28______885_____8,480

Now for the Ruger Old Army. No pressures were recorded

Goex FFFg, .457 RB

30______858
40______917

Goex FFFFg
31______964
41______1036

Bullet #45468 185 grains
Goex FFFg
25______710
33______780

Goex FFFFg
26______860
35______905

[Captchee]

very cool . in all my years i wouldnt have guessed that .

[B.L.E.]

If they didn't mix up the data in a typo, maybe the finer granulations of powder begin to behave more and more like one big pellet of black powder in the chamber.
It could be that the coarser granulations have more open space between the grains allowing the flame to get more powder grains ignited at once. But that's just my conjecture.
I might just have to drag out my own chronograph and do some of my own comparisons.

Anyway, the pressures they measured did not seem to be that much higher than those recorded with FFFg. Maybe FFFg just works better than FFFFg in most guns and it's not so much about excess pressure.