Lee factory crimp die... one of my new favorite tools... - Page 2

Magnum Wheel Man · October 3, 2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

in all fairness to properly set up dies, I questioned how I had my 45 Colt die adjusted, & discovered that the seater stem should have been backed out a little, as I tightened up the die... in essence, ( & I suspect the 9mm pictured ) I was trying to push the bullet in further, after I was already in the process of crimping, & I also got a couple lightly crushed cases...

I'm guessing this is the reason for 90% of bulged cases

Foxbat · October 3, 2009, 12:23 PM

"I also have some over sized expander rods which can take care of the "bigger bullet" issues... & in all fairness to properly set up dies, I questioned how I had my 45 Colt die adjusted, & discovered that the seater stem should have been backed out a little, as I tightened up the die... in essence, ( & I suspect the 9mm pictured ) I was trying to push the bullet in further, after I was already in the process of crimping, & I also got a couple lightly crushed cases..."

Well, the problem is both the seater and the crimp part of the die must be adjusted to a proper position, you don't really have much room there, if you want to set the COL and crimp to where they should be.

Combining these two very different function into one die was a HORRIBLE idea from the start, and it is nice that eventually die makers have realized that and produced the PROPER setup that works every time.

The separate crimp die makes life so easy for such a low price, I really won't see why anyone would argue with it.

bigautomatic · October 3, 2009, 04:35 PM

Thanks for posting the pic. I was thinking of a case being bulged outward, instead of inward as shown in the pic. That makes sense. I guess I've been lucky that I've never experienced this problem. But then again I've never had any problems with setback or jump, to where I needed to apply a super tight crimp. That is the reason for the tight crimp, right?

Kyo · October 3, 2009, 07:50 PM

it looks inward because the bullet is seating and it tries to crimp it down so much when it gets to the part of the cartridge that has no bullet it pushes it in. i call that an overcrimp.

Foxbat · October 3, 2009, 08:57 PM

"i call that an overcrimp. "

That is incorrect. If you look carefully, you will see there is virtually no crimp at all, in fact you can still see the remnants of the bell.

bigautomatic · October 3, 2009, 11:40 PM

So, if the properly adjusted die can supposedly seat and crimp at the same time, then what could cause the bullet to be fully seated and not crimp the case mouth? The interior of the die out of spec?

Magnum Wheel Man · October 4, 2009, 10:23 AM

IMO ( & I do like the factory Crimp Dies ) most often, it's because the seater stem is screwed in too far, & the die not far enough, so that the bullet is seated to the correct depth, but the case does not go far enough into the die to engauge the roll crimp, or far enough into the die for the taper crimp to taper crimp the bullet to the shooters liking... if you had everything set "right" at one time, & switch bullets, to a slightly longer nose, or are using the o-ring Lee type dies, & have begun to screw in the die just a little more each time you use it... you may get to the point, that the die has begun crimping, while the seating stem is still trying to push the bullet down...

... this is why I usually have my machinist buddy add set screws to all my Lee die lock rings...

I've gotten by for around 15 years without a "Factory Crimp Die"... but my heavy kicking tube magazine guns warrent a heavier crimp han I was getting from "normal" dies, & I like the ease of use, as well as the fact that some powders burn more completely, & with better consistancy with a heavier crimp...

gearheadpyro · October 4, 2009, 12:41 PM

I use the pistol crimp die for my 40 and love it. It ensures perfectly reliable feeding. I've never buckled a case or anything will loading, this just helps make sure they are all uniform.
I'm thinking about getting the collet crimp die for my .308 win, but I have one question I can't find an answer to anywhere. I load Hornady sst's, but the crimp groove is completely outside of the case mouth at the most accurate depth. If I use the crimp die will I need to put the bullet in deep enough to have the crimp groove in the case mouth? or can I crimp it lightly on the bearing surface of the bullet?
Thanks for your help.

Magnum Wheel Man · October 4, 2009, 02:26 PM

you can make a new crimp groove on the bearing surface with the factory crimp die

BigJakeJ1s · October 4, 2009, 07:01 PM

Other than the poor quality/design of the crimp ring on my one and only Carbide FCD (45 colt), I don't have a problem with separate crimping from seating (take as many steps and as much time as you need to make ammo that works to your satisfaction). I have found it very easy to adjust a Hornady seating die to apply a heavy roll crimp into a cannelure while seating the bullet. It is much less easy to adjust a seating die for a taper crimped cartridge, while seating.

Problems I have seen that cause a buckled case while seating and crimping at the same time include:

1) misadjusted seat/crimp die (mentioned above, usually crimping too much, and much more common in taper crimping than in roll crimping)

2) non-uniform case lengths (die set up on short brass, long brass buckles because the crimp is too hard)

3) incorrect case mouth expansion and/or belling

Separate seating and crimping is fine, but if that carbide ring on the CFCD is doing anything to your handloads, see 1-3 above). Brass springs back more than lead/copper, so if that post sizing carbide ring is squeezing both, you will end up with a looser bullet fit, not a tighter one.

Andy

October 3, 2009, 07:50 PM	#29
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	it looks inward because the bullet is seating and it tries to crimp it down so much when it gets to the part of the cartridge that has no bullet it pushes it in. i call that an overcrimp. __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

October 4, 2009, 10:23 AM	#32
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	IMO ( & I do like the factory Crimp Dies ) most often, it's because the seater stem is screwed in too far, & the die not far enough, so that the bullet is seated to the correct depth, but the case does not go far enough into the die to engauge the roll crimp, or far enough into the die for the taper crimp to taper crimp the bullet to the shooters liking... if you had everything set "right" at one time, & switch bullets, to a slightly longer nose, or are using the o-ring Lee type dies, & have begun to screw in the die just a little more each time you use it... you may get to the point, that the die has begun crimping, while the seating stem is still trying to push the bullet down... ... this is why I usually have my machinist buddy add set screws to all my Lee die lock rings... I've gotten by for around 15 years without a "Factory Crimp Die"... but my heavy kicking tube magazine guns warrent a heavier crimp han I was getting from "normal" dies, & I like the ease of use, as well as the fact that some powders burn more completely, & with better consistancy with a heavier crimp... __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

October 4, 2009, 12:41 PM	#33
gearheadpyro Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 169	Lee Crimp Dies I use the pistol crimp die for my 40 and love it. It ensures perfectly reliable feeding. I've never buckled a case or anything will loading, this just helps make sure they are all uniform. I'm thinking about getting the collet crimp die for my .308 win, but I have one question I can't find an answer to anywhere. I load Hornady sst's, but the crimp groove is completely outside of the case mouth at the most accurate depth. If I use the crimp die will I need to put the bullet in deep enough to have the crimp groove in the case mouth? or can I crimp it lightly on the bearing surface of the bullet? Thanks for your help. __________________ www.southernmarksman.com Owner of & Chief Instructor for The Southern Marksman, LLC NRA Life Member, NRA CRSO, Multi-Discipline NRA Certified Instructor

October 4, 2009, 02:26 PM	#34
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	you can make a new crimp groove on the bearing surface with the factory crimp die __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

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October 3, 2009, 12:23 PM	#27
Foxbat Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2008 Posts: 367	"I also have some over sized expander rods which can take care of the "bigger bullet" issues... & in all fairness to properly set up dies, I questioned how I had my 45 Colt die adjusted, & discovered that the seater stem should have been backed out a little, as I tightened up the die... in essence, ( & I suspect the 9mm pictured ) I was trying to push the bullet in further, after I was already in the process of crimping, & I also got a couple lightly crushed cases..." Well, the problem is both the seater and the crimp part of the die must be adjusted to a proper position, you don't really have much room there, if you want to set the COL and crimp to where they should be. Combining these two very different function into one die was a HORRIBLE idea from the start, and it is nice that eventually die makers have realized that and produced the PROPER setup that works every time. The separate crimp die makes life so easy for such a low price, I really won't see why anyone would argue with it.

October 3, 2009, 04:35 PM	#28
bigautomatic Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 610	Thanks for posting the pic. I was thinking of a case being bulged outward, instead of inward as shown in the pic. That makes sense. I guess I've been lucky that I've never experienced this problem. But then again I've never had any problems with setback or jump, to where I needed to apply a super tight crimp. That is the reason for the tight crimp, right?

October 3, 2009, 08:57 PM	#30
Foxbat Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2008 Posts: 367	"i call that an overcrimp. " That is incorrect. If you look carefully, you will see there is virtually no crimp at all, in fact you can still see the remnants of the bell.

October 3, 2009, 11:40 PM	#31
bigautomatic Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 610	So, if the properly adjusted die can supposedly seat and crimp at the same time, then what could cause the bullet to be fully seated and not crimp the case mouth? The interior of the die out of spec?

October 4, 2009, 07:01 PM	#35
BigJakeJ1s Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 663	Other than the poor quality/design of the crimp ring on my one and only Carbide FCD (45 colt), I don't have a problem with separate crimping from seating (take as many steps and as much time as you need to make ammo that works to your satisfaction). I have found it very easy to adjust a Hornady seating die to apply a heavy roll crimp into a cannelure while seating the bullet. It is much less easy to adjust a seating die for a taper crimped cartridge, while seating. Problems I have seen that cause a buckled case while seating and crimping at the same time include: 1) misadjusted seat/crimp die (mentioned above, usually crimping too much, and much more common in taper crimping than in roll crimping) 2) non-uniform case lengths (die set up on short brass, long brass buckles because the crimp is too hard) 3) incorrect case mouth expansion and/or belling Separate seating and crimping is fine, but if that carbide ring on the CFCD is doing anything to your handloads, see 1-3 above). Brass springs back more than lead/copper, so if that post sizing carbide ring is squeezing both, you will end up with a looser bullet fit, not a tighter one. Andy