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Old October 20, 2013, 03:46 PM   #1
rebs
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load for a model 19 357 mag ?

I did several searches and could not find any info on this. I have a S&W model 19 and aS&W model 37 38 spl snub nose I am looking for a nice light accurate load for each ? For the 357 mag cases would I use a standard or mag primer ?
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Old October 20, 2013, 04:47 PM   #2
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Standard primers.

Lead or jacketed? Powders you have on hand? Stay away from the 125 grain bullets for your 19.

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I did several searches and could not find any info on this.
Wow! Really?

The aluminum frame on your 37 doesn't like very hot loads so great you are not trying to beat it up.
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Old October 20, 2013, 04:51 PM   #3
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I'm using 7.0g SR4756 with 125g XTP in a Ruger SP101 3", a lightweight gun that is rather unfriendly with full up magnum loads. I need this loading to clean up the powder, which likes to leave unburned flakes at lower loads.

My lead bullet for "lite" .357 magnum is either 125g S&S or 140g Hornady COWBOY.

My S&W 637 .38 Special +P is a short barrel that is a good candidate for the Accurate Arms #2 loads, popular for such guns. I use 110g-140g XTP or 125g LRNFP. The Accurate website (Western Powder) provides a download of what they recommend.

The Hornady low end load for 110 XTP in .38 Special is 4.7g, rated at 850 fps in the Hornady book.

I would try the same load on the 125g lead (LRNFP S&S).

I use magnum primers on SR4756 trying to ensure a complete burn, but the caliber itself doesn't require it. The powder used determines the best primer choice.
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Old October 20, 2013, 06:09 PM   #4
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http://www.castpics.net/project2/Cas...t.php?start=41

Here's a lin k to 38 and 357 cast lead loads..... lots of choices

Missouri bullets are a good source of cast lead and there are plenty of others
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Old October 20, 2013, 06:43 PM   #5
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I'd like to know the barrel length of your model 19.

Quote:
Stay away from the 125 grain bullets for your 19.
Mmm, true; but kind of oversimplified. You can shoot 125's (or even 110's) through a model 19. But I would advise to avoid loading them hot, with slow powders - they're a bit much for the forcing cone area, and fatigue can set in on the piece. If you stick with infrequent use of 80% loads, using medium speed powders, I'd say it's probably not much of an issue. That said, also keep in mind that the model 19 is no longer in production and is really a nice piece, worthy of keeping happy n healthy. Further, I'd avoid extensive use of full power 158g rounds too. It's not just a 125g thing (the 125's just manifest the issue more easily).

Regarding magnum primers in magnum cases: it depends on the powder, mostly. Don't confuse the terms "magnum" here. They mean two individual things. It's not a situation were you need to "match" them with each-other. Many slower ball powders should be initiated with magnum primers. W296 (H110 is the same powder) is a good example. HS-6 is another (although HS-6 is considered a medium speed powder). With those powders, I always use magnum primers. So it's a function of the powder, not the case.
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Old October 20, 2013, 08:22 PM   #6
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rebs, check out the data at: www.ramshot.com for True Blue. It will work well for defense type loads in both the .38 Sp. and the .357 Magnum. Stay away from the very fast loads with slow burning magnum powders using the 125 gr. JHPs and you'll be fine. Ramshot loads warmer with True Blue in .357 Magnum than I have, so I'll give you the actual performance numbers I got using the Rem. 125 gr. SJHP fired from a 2 3/4" Ruger Speed-Six. Working up to 10.1 grs. and an OACL of 1.583" (I just centered the case-mouth in the cannelure), 12 rounds averaged 1278 FPS with an extreme spread of 45 and standard deviation at 13. Not bad and it is accurate. SD would probaly go down with a higher powder charge, but this was the kind of performance I was looking for with the 125 gr. SJHP and pressure will still be low enough to eliminate issues common to the M19 and 125 gr. JHPs using slower propellants, and they're are not needed to get this kind of performance. If your M19 has a 4" barrel, this load will perform higher anyway and there's plenty of room to go up with the powder charge if higher velocity is what you want. Just so you'll know, Lyman only went to 10.5 grs. with a 125 gr. JHP and I don't think I'd go beyond that even though Ramshot did. They were not using an M19.

I agree with what Nick said and if you did use HS-6 a Magnum primer is recommended even for .38 Sp. With True Blue, Ramshot recommends a Magnum primer for the .357 Magnum loads and that's what I used. If you want to keep things simple by using a single primer, always begin loading with a Start Charge, and you can use a Magnum primer with True Blue in .38 Sp. Working up to a Max. Charge, pressure will run slightly higher by using a Magnum primer. So, for the M37, you probably won't want that kind of performance, but True Blue is +P capable and there is data for it in the new #5 load guide. They show a load with the 125 gr. Golden Saber that looks pretty promising, but it's 1199 FPS rating came from a 7.75" test barrel.
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Old October 20, 2013, 08:37 PM   #7
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My model 19 has a 4" barrel
the powders I have on hand to use are 2400, bullseye, unique and W231.
I have a 100 357 cases primed with magnum primers and 100 38 spl cases primed with standard primers.
I am looking for a lite 357 mag load and a lite 38 spl load for each of them. I have had the model 19 since it was brand new and it has been babied and is in pristine condition. It has been shot very little.
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Old October 20, 2013, 09:52 PM   #8
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I'd use the W231. I'm not a big fan of Unique in .357 Magnum loads and it would be better primed with a standard primer anyway. Bullseye could be used, but it's too fast burning in .357 Magnum for me and should be used with a standard primer also. The way your cases are set up, W231 will work in both the .38 Sp. with a standard primer and .357 Magnum with a Magnum primer.

Bullseye and Unique would be better suited to your .38 SP. cases and you could use lower charges of 2400 in .357 Magnum, although not ideal with Magnum primers, it can be done safely with lower charges. So there are a number of possible combinations. Me, I'd keep it simple and use W231 in both. At least until you have more available powder options.
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Old October 20, 2013, 10:56 PM   #9
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I'll second the Hornady 140 grain LFP 'cowboy' bullet. Always accurate in any 38/357 handgun or carbine.
I'm not a huge fan of any of those powders, but I do agree that 231 would be fine with magnum primers. I have some older 357 data where magnum primers are recommended for 231 specifically, and all of Hodgdon's 357 data uses magnum primers.
With light (short) lead bullets in the long 357 brass, position sensitivity of the powder can be a big factor. Large velocity swings are common with light charges of many powders. You can feel the difference in the recoil from shot to shot.

IMO the best powders for light lead 357 loads are Clays, Trail Boss and Titegroup, but 231 should do well. Don't be shy about bumping up the charges until you get good, consistent performance.
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Old October 21, 2013, 06:14 AM   #10
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Thank you for all the replies, I appreciate it.

With w231 powder I would use a magnum primer in the 357 cases and a standard in the 38 cases right ?

Last edited by rebs; October 21, 2013 at 12:31 PM.
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Old October 21, 2013, 12:51 PM   #11
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The model 19 is a K frame, even though it's a magnum the K frame will develope end shake problems when using a steady diet of full loads. If reloading I would stay in the mid range. The N & L frames are more for magnum loads.
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
With w231 powder I would use a magnum primer in the 357 cases and a standard in the 38 cases right ?
No, not correct. As discussed in your other thread. Primer choice is NOT dependent on the chambering you are loading, but rather on the powder you are using and what the load data calls for.

Small pistol primers are absolutely fine in most cases, especially with fast burning powders like W231.
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Old October 21, 2013, 01:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
The model 19 is a K frame, even though it's a magnum the K frame will develope end shake problems when using a steady diet of full loads. If reloading I would stay in the mid range. The N & L frames are more for magnum loads.
He did mention he is looking for light loads in the original post.
Quote:
With w231 powder I would use a magnum primer in the 357 cases and a standard in the 38 cases right ?
IMO, yes, but what does your data say to use?
You need some data reference, and they all specify primer type. Charges may depend on primer type.
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Old October 21, 2013, 02:35 PM   #14
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In my older Lyman book everything in 38 and 357 mag calls for a standard small pistol primer. But as stated earlier by someone mag primers can be used if I stay in the middle of the load range. I just want to use up the mag primers and then go to all standard
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Old October 21, 2013, 02:43 PM   #15
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If I were in your shoes, I would find some small pistol (non-magnum) primers and save your magnum primers for a day you may need/want them. As stated above, H110/W296 requires magnum primers and it is a very good powder that you may one day wish to use, it'll be awfully handy to already have the magnum primers.

Obviously, I realize that component availability is erratic, and this may not be the easy option. Even so, that's my suggestion.
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Old October 21, 2013, 03:04 PM   #16
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An accurate and reasonably-powerful .357 Magnum load that won't hurt your 19's delicate forcing cone: 158 grain hard cast lead bullet, (SWC or RNFP doesn't matter) 8.0 grains of Herco, and any small pistol primer.

Another fun load to shoot is 148 grain DEWC's (1.35" or 1.36" OAL) with 4.5 grains of Red Dot.

Both of these are max or near-max loads. You can get more power by using slower powders like Blue Dot, AA#7, 2400, AA#9, Power Pistol, etc, but it takes a lot more powder to do so.

In my .38 Special, I'm shooting a lot of 148 grain DEWC's lately with 2.8 grains of Red Dot. I just loaded a few 158 grain RNFP's last night using the same charge (didn't want to reset the powder measure) but I haven't tried them yet.
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Old October 21, 2013, 03:06 PM   #17
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Bold prediction:
when zxcvbob leaves this world, hopefully after a very long, happy and fulfilling life, and on his own terms, they will end production of Herco.

Bob, if it wasn't for you, I'd forget completely that this stuff is out there.
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Old October 21, 2013, 03:10 PM   #18
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I appreciate that warm although premature eulogy
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Old October 21, 2013, 03:35 PM   #19
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Quote:
With w231 powder I would use a magnum primer in the 357 cases and a standard in the 38 cases right ?
rebs, that's exactly what SPEER recommends in their load manuals for W231. Standard primer in .38 Sp. and a Magnum primer in .357 Magnum.
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Old October 21, 2013, 05:44 PM   #20
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For a full powered load, I liked a 158 L or 158 JHP with 13.5 grains 2400. Either bullet type shot well. I tried a case of 38 Special +P factory ammunition, the recoil was not bad. In 38 Special cases, all of the loads shot well. I decided decades ago to just use a 158 anything with 3.5 grains Bullseye in a 38 Special case. This load shot exceptionally well in many different 38’s and 357’s, and shot to point of aim in the fixed sight revolvers, that I have seen no particular reason to change. In a K frame 357 you could bump up the load to 3. ¾ grains Bullseye and still be below 800 fps.

The 148 LSWC load is a target load that is as old as the mountains. And it shoots very well, even in a 357 revolver.


Code:
M66-2 4" Barrel				
					
158gr Rem JHP 13.5 grs 2400 R-P primed cases
		
16-Aug-92	T = 75 °F	
			
Ave Vel =	1227	 			 
Std Dev =	14				
ES  =	34	 			
Low  =	1209	 			
High  =	1243				
N =	6				
					
158 SWCHP +P Zero Brand 38Special	
I 			
25-Mar-07	T = 75 °F				
			
					
Ave Vel =	874.5		 		
Std Dev =	27.51		 		
ES  =	140.6		 		 
High  =	967.4		 		 
Low  =	826.8				
 N =	26				 

Loads in 38 Special cases				
					
148gr LBBWC 2.7 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers,
	
17-Oct-93	T = 65-70°F	

	
Ave Vel =	704	fps			
Std Dev =	18				
ES =	742	 			
High  =	742				
Low  =	0				
N =	6				
					
					
					
					
158gr LSWC 4.1 grs 231  CCI500 primers,		 
 
16-Aug-92	T = 75°F


Ave Vel =	766	fps			 
Std Dev =	20				
ES =	61				
High  =	809			 	
Low  =	748				
N =	6				
					
	
158gr LSWC 4.3 grs 231  Fed 100 primers,	 
 	 			
16-Aug-92	T = 75°F

Ave Vel =	757	fps			 
Std Dev =	32				
ES =	77				
High  =	799				
Low  =	722				
N =	6				
					
158gr LSWC 3.3 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers

	
17-Oct-93	T = 65-70°F
		
Ave Vel =	725	fps			 
Std Dev =	17				
ES =	56				
High  =	753				
Low  =	697				
N =	6				
					
				 	
158gr LSWC 3.5 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers,
	 
17-Oct-93	T = 65-70°F
		 
Ave Vel =	764	fps			 
Std Dev =	13				
ES =	40				
High  =	776				
Low  =	736				
N =	6				
					
158gr LSWC 3.75 grs Bullseye CCI 500 primers,
	 
17-Oct-93	T = 65-70°F
		 
Ave Vel =	779	fps			 
Std Dev =	19				
ES =	61				
High  =	819			 	
Low  =	758				
N =	6				
		

			
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Old October 21, 2013, 07:19 PM   #21
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Quote:
Quote:
With w231 powder I would use a magnum primer in the 357 cases and a standard in the 38 cases right ?

rebs, that's exactly what SPEER recommends in their load manuals for W231. Standard primer in .38 Sp. and a Magnum primer in .357 Magnum.
That would depend on which manual you are looking at.

The faster powder (231) takes about half as much powder to reach max pressure as the slow powder (2400). SO, when using the fast powders, make VERY sure only a single powder charge is in each case. With the fast powders there is room in the case (even a .38) for a double charge, even at max load weights. With the slower powders there is not enough room, and a double charge is obvious.

You have 100 each magnums with mag primers, and regular .38s with standard primers. Fine, just choose a mid range load for each, with suitable powder. After you shoot them up, reload only with your desired standard.
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Old October 22, 2013, 01:35 AM   #22
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As long as you're not near top end, mag primers will be OK to substitute for standard.
Start at the bottom and work up your load until you're happy with it. Stay about a half grain below max (or more) and you'll be fine.

What exactly are you loading?
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