.327 Magnum

[BillCA]

Never heard of it. (...you're not helping)

It was a joint venture between Federal and Charter Arms who made a revolver chambered for "9mm Fed." called the Pitbull. It only lasted about 2 years.

How about the .356TSW?

[CraigC]

I was just pokin', I've heard of the 9mm Federal and I remember when they developed the .356TSW too.

[seeker_two]

I'd be interested in it in a NM Vaquero/50th Anniversary Blackhawk model in .327.....good camp gun round and may get very popular in SASS (esp. if chambered in a levergun...)

At worst, it'll be the next 10mm....and we all know how much of a dud that was.....

[Smaug]

Originally Posted by CraigC

I handled your dumb question like a gentleman but apparently it's too much to ask in return. I can roll my eyes too.

You're right. My apologies.

[CraigC]

You're right. My apologies.

No big deal.


For those interested, Hodgdon has posted a bunch of load data. What's interesting to me is that they achieved over 1500fps with the Speer 100gr over H110 at 6,500psi under the limit.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[FEG]

Any of you internet speculators care to name a cartridge introduced by a major manufacturer in the last 20yrs that you can't get components for?

.41 Action Express, and don't try to say that Israeli Military Industries isn't a "major manufacturer."

9mm Police/9mm Ultra. Again, Walther is clearly a "major manufacturer."

These are pushing the 20 year envelope, but I am pretty sure I can come up with some more if necessary.

[CraigC]

The .41AE is a good example, although brass is still available for it.

The 9mm Ultra is a bit of a stretch. According to Cartridges of the World, it was originally designed in 1936 for the German Air Force and resurrected in 1972. Chambered in the Walther PP pistol for the West German Police who wanted a bit more than the .380 without going to a full-sized 9mm. The case is 1mm longer than the .380 and 1mm shorter than the 9mm. It was not available to the civilian market until 1975 and then only in limited numbers. They believe its original development inspired the 9mm Makarov. So what you have is a limited production cartridge in limited production pistols, specifically reintroduced for the West German Police. It's an obscure cartridge that bridged the tiny gap between the .380 and 9mm. It's marginally better than the .380, duplicating existing 9mm Makarov ballistics and the German Police eventually dumped it. Personally, I don't think it qualifies. Shockingly, Fiocchi loads ammo for it.

Seriously, how many 9mm's can the market support?

The .327 does not duplicate an existing cartridge, despite the .357 getting thrown in every direction. Nor does it offer a marginal improvement over the .32H&R. If it fails to become a commercial success it will be because not enough of the right type of guns are made for it, or if availability suffers for an extended period, or if the naysayers simply overpower the undecided. Not because it wasn't a good idea.

[langenc]

I think we should all notify the gun mags not to run reviews of new guns/calibers till they are readily available.

I asked for a 327 very shortly after I read an article about them. I believe the guy behind the counter thought I was drinking/smoking something. He grabs a company catalog and starts thumbing thru it-to find it.. yuk yuk.

[CraigC]

I can tell you right now the butt-dragging cost them one sale. I was all hot and bothered over the introduction of the #1 Tropical in .450/.400 but by the time they hit the market in very, very small numbers I had completely cooled off. Dies and components are not readily available either. Of course, I'm much more patient when it comes to single actions.


Thought I'd add this blurb from Bowen's site on the .327Federal:

"Those of us who are serious small-bore, small-game revolver enthusiasts have clamored for years for the moral equivalent of the great old .32-20 but in a more modern, tougher, available package. The cartridge fairies have been listening and have come through in grand style. The .327 Federal Magnum will perform every bit as well as hand-loaded high-pressure, high-performance .32-20 loadings. Better still, the .327 is nothing more than a stretched .32 H&R Magnum which means it is quite small in diameter and can be built in 6-shot guns on relatively small frames, places the longer, larger .32-20 just wouldn't fit easily (or cheaply).

For reasons known only to the fine folks at Sturm, Ruger & Company, the .327 has ended up in their small double-action SP-101 rather than in the Single-Six. While the SP-101 is a hardy little double-action gun, many of us really, really wanted to see the gun in a small single action. The .327 will work fine in a slightly longer cylinder body section with virtually no other modifications. The walls and webs of the factory .32 H&R cylinder are thicker than many .357 Magnums so there is no reason to go to a more costly and complicated 5-shot part.

Bowen Classic Arms is adding the chambering to our line-up and will offer Single-Six and medium-frame Blackhawk and Flat Top single-action revolvers in this great little cartridge. We'll have a semi drop-in cylinder available under the RS06 catalog number for the .32 H&R Single-Six model that will utilize the original barrel suitably modified for the long-body cylinder. The receiver will be properly marked as to caliber and then re-blued. We'll also offer a more sophisticated version similar to our 'Long Hunter' package per catalog number RS07 which will feature a line-bored cylinder, custom barrel and the usual trimmings. We'll also note the availability of 6-shot line-bored conversions with factory-style cylinders in conventional calibers in all of the New Model size receivers.

We're hoping to have our initial run of cylinder blanks available this summer. As an aside, these same blanks will enable us to offer tight-chamber .22 rim fires. .22 and .25 caliber wildcats based on the .327 are contemplated, as well. We've done a few Smith & Wesson K-frame guns in .327 which have proven wonderful shooters. Unfortunately, the better cylinders for re-chambering are the scarce older K22 parts. As the supply is fading fast, we're working to produce a long-body K-frame S&W cylinder which we can utilize not only for the .327 but also the .32-20, .218 Bee, .25-20 and .256. For M53 enthusiasts, we will be able to fashion an auxiliary .22 LR cylinder. As long as we can get our paws on K22 barrels, which should be in S&W part bins for a while now, we'll be able to produce the lovely K-frame M14s and M15 in a variety of great small-game and plinking rounds, including the .327

It is not often that we have a new revolver cartridge to get fired up about but the .327 Magnum is the most important mainstream cartridge offering since the .44 Magnum for serious revolver nuts."

[Jimtl]

I just checked out a Charter Arms .327 snubbie at a local gun shop a few minutes ago. Looked okay, but kind of pricey ... $449. I would definitely opt for the Ruger, but it was interesting.

[John Moses]

It is not often that we have a new revolver cartridge to get fired up about but the .327 Magnum is the most important mainstream cartridge offering since the .44 Magnum for serious revolver nuts."

Bowen is not known for being subtle but that is an awfully bold prediction.


Heck, I am still wondering if it will survive.

Wow!

[CraigC]

Bowen is not known for being subtle but that is an awfully bold prediction.

I think Bowen has a much more positive outlook on things. It's obvious if you ever get to talk to him. Apparently he looks at it for what it is and what it's capable of, rather than criticizing it for what it isn't. Not a critic in the strictest sense, like most seem to be.

There have already been several shooters I know of have custom .327's built. Even before the SP's started trickling out. Folks who are not your typical "trendy" shooters taken by cheap marketing. So maybe there's something to it???

The .327 will save me a bunch of money and weight. A typical .32-20 conversion on an Old Model .357 is about $1500 because of the custom cylinder. Converting my Bisley Single Six will be much less expensive (half!) and result in the same performance in a much lighter package.

[John Moses]

Craig,

While I am not a drinker of the Kool-Aid that doesn't mean that I am a doubting Thomas. I do confess that while I have never been to Missouri, I do admire their motto.

I also do not see how the .327 is going to save you

a bunch of money and weight

but hey...best of luck to you.

Not sure why you are so testy. Statements like

Apparently he looks at it for what it is and what it's capable of, rather than criticizing it for what it isn't

suggest that your postition is much like the fascists of the main street media who pummel all that disagree with them.

Let me say ONCE AGAIN that I am HAPPY that you have found a new cartridge and I hope that it is all you hope it will become. I am NOT trying to piss on your birthday cake.

Germain-Robin makes a brandy that surpasses most cognacs. Please enjoy a glass or two. Maybe then you can deal with one whose opinion does not perfectly align with your own.

[CraigC]

I also do not see how the .327 is going to save you "a bunch of money and weight"

What's confusing about that? I told you the .327 conversion on a Single Six is about half what it costs to build a custom .32-20. It should be rather obvious that a Single Six weighs a lot less than a mid-frame .32-20 Blackhawk. Does that not make sense?

I hope that it is all you hope it will become.

That's one thing I've been trying to get through to you. This is not a gamble. Folks have been loading heavy .32-20's almost since the beginning. We KNOW what we're getting into. We now just have a stronger case that fits into smaller guns at less expense. If you are not familiar with the .32-20 or .32H&R, maybe you should be.


I have absolutely no problem with a difference of opinion based on logic. What I do have a problem with is negativity and criticism for the sake of itself. Even in the face of glaring facts that disprove the position that any of this is "old hat". I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't matter what this new cartridge is. YOU would find a problem with it and take offense at its very existence. As if you were required to buy one.

I guess the .357 is the .30/06 of revolvers. Everybody has one and thinks it's the best thing since slice bread. Even though the .308 duplicates its ballistics in lighter, shorter guns. True believers freak out at the slightest perceived attempt at dethroning it. Which isn't the case here at all but we are dealing with perception.

[John Moses]

As we had previously discussed, I base my opinion on the ballistic possibilities of .38 & .357 which totally eclipse that of the .327. Not sure how that falls into

negativity and criticism for the sake of itself.

but you obviously do.

YOU would find a problem with it and take offense at its very existence

This is ridiculous as I have repeatedly mentioned that I hope that it lives up to your expectations.


Perhaps you have not been shooting long enough to remember the constant parade of new cartridges. Every time you turn around there is a promise of something great. And like most things that seem too good to be true, they are. Maybe this is the exception.

It is too soon for anyone to know but there is one thing for sure. We will see if it is the best thing since sliced bread or another 41AE.

[CraigC]

As we had previously discussed, I base my opinion on the ballistic possibilities of .38 & .357 which totally eclipse that of the .327.

In what way? In what context? I've already pointed out that bullets with a similar sectional density fly 400fps faster than published .357 loads. I already know from personal experience they do so with less blast and recoil. Jeff Quinn's tests also prove it. Then again, if all you're looking at is energy figures with self defense the only intended use, I can understand your position.

Perhaps you have not been shooting long enough to remember the constant parade of new cartridges. Every time you turn around there is a promise of something great. And like most things that seem too good to be true, they are. Maybe this is the exception.

No, I remember. You also have to look at a great many of them and ask yourself why they failed. The attempts to reinvent the 9mm should be obvious. Especially those specifically designed for competition use like the .356TSW. Some seemed almost designed to fail. Others can't be explained. Lots of them have been a great idea that just never caught on, for whatever reason. The .32H&R is a great little small game and varmint cartridge that has never really achieved any measure of commercial success. The 5mm Remington suffered from poor marketing and budget rifles, not the fault of the cartridge. The .307, .356 and .375 Winchester cartridges are sporty powerhouses that just did not sell. Now we have the .308Marlin Express, basically a reinvention of the old .307WCF. Even though it failed, how bad an idea was it really, for Marlin to reinvent it years later? The answer is it wasn't a bad idea or a poor cartridge, it failed because the market is so fickle.

In this case, we already know what to expect. We know exactly what we get out of a 100gr Speer JHP at 1600-1700fps. The only thing that changed is how we get it there, which got better. All we needed to know is whether the velocities claimed were attainable through handloading. They are.

My biggest gripe about threads like these are the claims that ammo and components won't be available in 20yrs. Not only is it impossible to know and unlikely to happen, what difference would it really make? What's the worst that could happen? You can ponder the "what-if's" all day long but what does that get you? A day older with nothing to show for it.

[FEG]

The .41AE is a good example, although brass is still available for it.

Care to share where? I would own one, except I haven't been able to buy new components for over three years. Currently, you are limited to .41 Magnum bullets and people selling off their stockpiles of brass on gun boards.

[CraigC]

Midway has brass. Not cheap but it's there.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...359&t=11082005

I just got off the phone with Bowen's shop. Wanted to see if they were gonna offer a semi-drop-in cylinder for the .32 Single Sixes. He said it's turned out to be quite the popular conversion. They're having a tough time keeping cylinders in stock. So I guess it ain't just me.

[FEG]

Midway has brass. Not cheap but it's there.

That is pretty expensive. (At first I thought it said "500," not "50.") I had never noticed this before at Midway, but the reviews are from 2005. Huh....

I've never seen any Jericho owner mention this headstamp. I wonder what the deal is? I wonder what it would cost to have handgun brass made on a custom basis? It sounds like that is what we are looking at here. That's over $1.00 per case.

[John Moses]

once again you keep applying things that I didn't say to me. In no way did I make

claims that ammo and components won't be available in 20yrs.

As to whether you are spiking the Kool-Aid, not reading carefully or are too much of an evangalist to care about anyone else's opinion is anyones guess.

Looking at your unfounded accusations I am guessing a combination thereof

negativity and criticism for the sake of itself.

or

YOU would find a problem with it and take offense at its very existence

As to your point as to why cartridges fail, they are not always bad rounds. Sometimes it is competition. Sometimes thay are an answer to a question that no one is asking. Sometimes there is just too much competition.

Many are rounds are outstanding. Examples include 41AE, 41 magnum, 44 special. The bottom line is that it comes down to popularity and there are already a lot of choices. It is hard and getting harder to break out from the crowd.

[BillCA]

As we had previously discussed, I base my opinion on the ballistic possibilities of .38 & .357 which totally eclipse that of the .327.

Is this really true? When I put up a chart comparing the two calibers, I was using the published ballistics for the Ruger SP-101 (3 1/16" barrel) versus published .357 specs (mostly 4" barrels). If the .327 Magnum is pushed out of longer barrels, it'll exceed 1600fps and produce 653 ft-lbs of whoop-a** at the muzzle. I think the highest factory ammo I've seen for .357 generates 710 ft-lbs.

That's not a significant difference given the benefits offered by the smaller cartridge.

I know some folks used the old .32-20 to take black bear in some parts of the country "back when". But I don't think I would stand there with a .327 Mag and shoot a black bear as "sport". Hell, IMO it would be desperation to use a .357 Mag for that purpose.

If we are talking simple ballistic performance, why would you want a .357 Magnum? Excessive noise, flash and heavier recoil and the only place you "gain" anything is at the very top end of the .357's performance spectrum.

Go to the Federal website and compare the ballistics. The .327 Performs as good as or better than the .357 at 100 yards in terms of drop and energy. And the caveat is that the .357 gets almost an inch more barrel to generate the figures than the .327.

Is the .327 superior to the .357 is all ways? Of course not. Just as the .357 is not superior to the .327 (or .32-20) for every shooter.

[John Moses]

1st off, logically speaking, one must say that a bullet is merely an energy transferring device. The aforementioned chart (thank you very much) was quite useful.

Of course, as you say, ballistic performance is based on more than just energy transference. John Ross, gun expert and author, likes to make projectiles out of nylon bar stock. The extreme light weight gives hyper velocity and little penetration. In tests out of a .38 special, 2inch barrel were achieving velocities of 2500 feet. He likes big boomers and was getting 3600 out of his 44mag. Energy was the same but with a totally different wound cavity (He said that the bullet disintegrates and the cavity becomes homogenized mush) This is obviously an extreme example but it clearly supports your position (which I was not arguing with)

The bottom line is that with virtually any cartridge you can dink around with the charge and the projectile. The .357/.38 has a large range of projectiles available. The ballistic performance and resulting wound cavity is incredibly wide.

Another thought like many I don’t find the .357 objectionable. I usually shoot it out of medium frames and the recoil is handled nicely.

Of course, admittedly changing the subject away from the cartridge, there is another reason why some of us are not going to be purchasing a .327. The selection of new revolvers is disappointing. Rugers are strong but are heavy and clunky with bad triggers. Smith & Clinton are expensive and sport a lock that nobody wants. Taurus is hit or miss quality wise. There just isn’t anything new in wheel guns that I want to buy.

So for many of us the 327 is the answer to a question that we don’t have. Is not available in the guns we want. We are happy with the versatile platform that we presently enjoy.

It is obviously scratching an itch for you so I am happy it came along. Bowen is a smart fellow so no matter what, you are in good company.

[BillCA]

Another thought like many I don’t find the .357 objectionable. I usually shoot it out of medium frames and the recoil is handled nicely.

This will depend upon where you fire it, the barrel length and the load you use.

During the first half of the 70's the common practice was for police training to use match wadcutters on a PPC course. Qualification was even done this way to save cost as well as wear & tear on dept. guns. We started questioning this practice around '74 and set up some studies to answer a number of questions.

To make this short, we found the .357 Magnum loads were much more difficult for officers (experienced or trainees) to shoot well. Especially indoors with concrete walls like one might find in industrial buildings, stairwells and parking garages. Group averages were below 68%.

The majority of complaints over recoil were from users of S&W K-Frames or Colt Lawman revolvers with 4-inch barrels. But everyone with a 4-inch barrel complained about the muzzle blast and flash. The worst being the much-vaunted Remington 125g SJHP load (advertised at 1500 fps).

If the .327 can provide similar power/performance without emulating the universe's "big bang" every time, I should expect much better accuracy for the shooters.

[John Moses]

The two revolvers that I shoot most are a 4inch Smith 19 and a 2.5 inch 686 although the python sometimes waits at the door if I try to slip out to the range without it.

Technically the 19 isn't mine. I gave it to my daughter for her 15th b day but she lets me shoot it.

[BillCA]

Technically the 19 isn't mine. I gave it to my daughter for her 15th b day but she lets me shoot it.

Well, that's very gracious of her.

The .357 Magnum cartridge has especially brutal muzzle blast (concussion) from short barreled guns like my J-Frame 649. Outdoors it's merely loud and obnoxious. Indoors, especially within about 10-ft of a concrete wall, the blast is unpleasant even with hearing protection and the shockwaves are brutal.

If I can obtain 75% of the energy of the .357 but only get 50% or less of the muzzle blast, I think that's a big win.