July 10, 2015, 08:04 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,946
|
Define Loaded Gun
Ok, had a friendly disagreement with someone concerning a sign at a local range and wanted a little feedback. A local indoor range has sign posted that reads, “No Loaded Guns or Magazines”.
I told the guy behind the counter that I understood the ban on loaded guns, but didn’t understand the issue with loaded magazines. He basically said that if the magazine was loaded and in the gun someone might chamber a round presenting a safety issue. I responded that a loaded magazine in a gun was actually a loaded gun. However, he disagreed and said a loaded magazine was simply that and that the gun itself wasn’t actually loaded until a round was chambered. So, I understand this isn’t really a big deal, but just curious what others might think.
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman |
July 10, 2015, 08:13 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 18, 2015
Location: PA
Posts: 1,835
|
I agree with the range counter person, a loaded magazine doesn't load the gun until a round is chambered.
__________________
Words to Live By: Before You Pray - Believe; Before You Speak - Listen; Before You Spend - Earn; Before You Write - Think; Before You Quit - Try; Before You Die - Live |
July 10, 2015, 08:15 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,806
|
Good question--I personally consider any cartridge within a firearm in any manner constitutes a loaded weapon (and for safety's sake assume all weapons are loaded until proven otherwise). If I had to guess--they probably have that rule cause they want to keep people from fooling with their magazines while the range is cold--reducing the probability of someone loading the magazine and having an AD or otherwise. I have seen some amazingly stupid things on a fairly regular basis at public ranges and marvel that more people are not killed at them.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk! |
July 10, 2015, 08:25 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 6, 2012
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 631
|
I usually call a gun with a loaded magazine in it loaded and one with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber I usually call loaded with one in the chamber.
|
July 10, 2015, 08:36 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 941
|
Just to confuse the issue, in New York state a pistol in a car with ammunition nearby is considered loaded. It's illegal to leave a loaded gun in a car while you go to run an errand, etc.
Back to the point, I consider a gun with a loaded magazine as loaded.
__________________
Jim Page Cogito, ergo armatum sum |
July 10, 2015, 09:26 AM | #6 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 4,862
|
Quote:
|
|
July 10, 2015, 09:30 AM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,310
|
BarryLee, I agree. Here's why.
Let's look at the opposite term. There's loaded, and *unloaded. I think less people would be willing to say that a pistol with a mag in is completely unloaded. "Did you unload the gun? - Yep it still has 15 rounds in it though" At an IDPA match, after the shooter is done the command is "Unload and show clear" and the chamber is visually checked. Mag is dropped, round is ejected and slide locked back. How much of that is from the "unload" and how much is from "clear"? I suppose we could explore the subtleties between the two... but I don't feel like it. Side note. Don't you love it when the media always gasps, "he had a *loaded* gun!!!" - silly rabbit, guns are always presumed loaded, you shouldn't be surprised when it's confirmed. |
July 10, 2015, 09:35 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,811
|
The actual interpretation of the law varies by state. Personally, if there isn't a round in the chamber I don't consider it loaded. That is far different from treating every gun as if it is loaded. That is a given.
|
July 10, 2015, 09:36 AM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 20, 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 1,731
|
"I usually call a gun with a loaded magazine in it loaded and one with a loaded magazine and a round in the chamber I usually call loaded with one in the chamber."
Yup.
__________________
2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details. |
July 10, 2015, 09:43 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 20, 2009
Location: Amity Oregon
Posts: 791
|
The definition can vary a bit, depending on where you are and what you
are doing. My wife and I participate in USPSA handgun competitions. From the rulebook: Loaded Firearm ................A firearm having a live round, empty case or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm. We live and carry in Oregon. One definition from Oregon statute: 166.360 Definitions for ORS 166.360 to 166.380. As used in ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise: (3) “Loaded firearm” means: (a) A breech-loading firearm in which there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in or attached to the firearm including but not limited to, in a chamber, magazine or clip which is attached to the firearm. |
July 10, 2015, 09:43 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Location: South Texas
Posts: 2,126
|
I would call a loaded gun one with ammunition in it, even if not in the chamber. Is a SAA Colt considered not loaded with 5 rounds in the cylinder?
|
July 10, 2015, 09:44 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Location: South Texas
Posts: 2,126
|
^I know the next one up would be live.^
|
July 10, 2015, 09:50 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 14, 2014
Posts: 394
|
There is a difference between "loaded" and "in battery", that's where we're losing the nuance. When I load a magazine, and load that magazine into my weapon, that weapon is now loaded.
When I retract the slide and chamber a round, now it's in battery. It's still loaded, too. |
July 10, 2015, 09:57 AM | #14 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,868
|
In general usage, "loaded" means rounds in the gun. One should always assume, for safety, there could be a round in the chamber. Until the introduction of modern repeaters, "loaded" ALWAYS meant round in the chamber.
"Unload" means to remove all ammunition from the gun. "Clear" means to remove the round from the chamber. "Show clear" means gun open, empty, so visual inspection shows the clear chamber. "Loaded" in legal terms, however means different things, depending on where you are. The laws vary more than a bit, and what is perfectly legal one place is an offence on the other side of the political (state, usually) line. Some places, rounds in the gun, but none in the chamber is still legally loaded. Another place, it is not. Another place, rounds in a magazine NOT IN THE GUN, but in the same compartment as the gun (passenger or trunk) constitutes loaded, legally. Another place it does not, but only if the gun and ammo are in separate locked containers... Some state define it by access. IF you have access to both the gun and the ammo the gun is considered loaded, even when there are no rounds in it. (ex: you, driving, empty gun in glove box, ammo in back seat, its "loaded, under the letter of the law. IF the ammo, OR the gun, (or you) were in the trunk, under that law, the gun would not be considered loaded. AND, in some places, a loaded gun is allowed, but only ON your person. There are about as many variations as there are states (or so it seems), and you BEST KNOW the laws in each state you enter, BEFORE you get there.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
July 10, 2015, 10:23 AM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 9, 2015
Posts: 190
|
I believe many states legally define loaded to mean it takes one action (IE pulling the trigger) to fire a round. A magazine in the well would require at least 2 actions (racking the slide, pulling the trigger) to fire. The way they look at revolvers just goes to show how many people writing firearm laws know nothing about firearms. I have seen at least 2 states with the above definition refer to a DA only revolver as loaded if the cylinder under the hammer or the cylinder adjacent to it has a round in the chamber. To me requiring a single action would mean that the cylinder where the hammer is could have a round while the next could not. evidently people think you can (under normal operation) fire a DA only with out rotating the cylinders.
|
July 10, 2015, 10:29 AM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Swamp dweller
Posts: 6,187
|
Quote:
To me it is stating that with the magazine in the gun the gun is loaded.
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be. |
|
July 10, 2015, 10:31 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 8,518
|
I think there are three levels of readiness, and they're not the same for all guns.
For instance, an auto pistol with a loaded mag in the well, but no round in the chamber, is not loaded, but it's not unloaded, either. A revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer is loaded, since pulling the trigger (DA), or cocking and pulling the trigger (SA) will fire the gun. In IDPA competition, the gun is considered loaded if there's ammo in the magazine or a round is in the chamber, but it's not considered unloaded until it's been cleared of all ammo. Under some conditions, the gun is considered loaded if the gun has malfunctioned and is out of battery, but that's a procedural issue, and not a matter of safety.
__________________
Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong. |
July 10, 2015, 10:47 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
|
I don't think it really matters. You questioned it, they answered it, that's what it means there. Communicatin was established.
As for legal definition, that will vary greatly state by state, and state regulations and definitions are not required to reflect common sense or reality in any way so it's whatever THEY say it is. Ohio's definition of "loaded gun" as it pertains to a vehicle was a magazine or a speed loader with rounds in ithem. I believe they recently changed or were in the process of changing that. |
July 10, 2015, 10:51 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 26, 2014
Posts: 102
|
I agree with the range rat. A round in the chamber is a loaded gun, a round in the magazine is a loaded magazine.
|
July 10, 2015, 11:05 AM | #20 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,946
|
Quote:
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman |
|
July 10, 2015, 11:12 AM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 31, 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,310
|
Well hey, not every thread needs to be about ground-breaking issues. Based on the response it looks like we all learned something.
I don't know why I never caught on to loading mags at home first. Maybe because I don't have enough mags. But if I had more, it sure would beat trying to do it standing at a range with rounds rolling around on a tiny bench with no lip. |
July 10, 2015, 11:25 AM | #22 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 4,209
|
Well if it has rounds in the magazine and the magazine is in the gun it sure as heck isn't unloaded
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 Quote:
|
|
July 10, 2015, 12:28 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
|
Cartridges in the mag - and mag in the gun...makes it a loaded gun in my view...and by most state's definitions.
A round in the chamber - changes the "condition" of readiness of the loaded gun ...but its loaded either way. This is an excerpt from Coopers "condition of carry readiness"... Cooper favored the Colt M1911 pistol and its variants. There are several conditions of readiness in which such a weapon can be carried. Cooper promulgated most of the following terms: Condition 4: Chamber empty, empty magazine, hammer down. Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down. Condition 2: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down. Condition 1: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on. Condition 0: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off. |
July 10, 2015, 12:43 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 11, 2008
Posts: 318
|
I think that in a gun store, which is an environment where the 4 rules are somewhat ignored because the assumption is that everything is unloaded for demonstration purposes, that keeping loaded magazines away from firearms is pretty logical since everyone fingergroping every gun and manipulating it's action constantly is going to increase your chances of an accident.
The semantics are not important. Keeping a ready ammunition source away from demo guns, that may be mistaken for an empty mag, is reasonable and shouldn't raise any eyebrows even amongst the strongest pro2A guys. If you think loaded mags next to display guns Is A-ok, open your own gunshop that welcomes this behavior and use whatever semantics you wish. |
July 10, 2015, 12:46 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,212
|
I tend to think of it as if I was in a situation and someone passed me a gun and said, "It's loaded", I would assume there was a round in the chamber. I would check myself of course but that would be my initial assumption. I think what you stumbled on is the fact that "loaded" itself may be too vague a term for certainty when working with others who may interpret it differently. That's likely why that sign exists.
|
|
|