Using your pistol while in "zhombie" mode...

JohnH1963 · March 29, 2009, 01:16 PM

All of us have gone through moments in our life where we are "zhombies" in a situation. For example, you are driving down the road and all of a sudden you have driven several miles without even knowing where you just came from or what roads you passed.

I have found an ideal example where the "zhombie" scenario occurred with a pistol. In this video, an officer pulls his weapon on an unarmed man during an arrest and fires at him. The man does appear resisting and some theories are that the officer was really going for his TASER.

My opinion is the officer was in "zhombie" mode. He might have been working long hours and received little sleep. I dont believe he was aware of what he was doing. The officer does appear surprised at the situation and might have been really going for his TASER.

Its important, I believe, to train while having been deprived of both sleep and food...realistic training in order to prevent "zhombie" mode during situations like this one in the video.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/0...rant-shooting/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object...154P0R.DTL&o=1

chemgirlie · March 29, 2009, 01:29 PM

In this situation I would almost (not quite though) equate zombie mode to being in a high stress situation. In both situations you react without giving your actions lots of thought. We can discuss and debate what we would do in a certain situation all we want, but often times the decision to shoot is made in an instant without going through all of the thought that we put into scenarios on the boards.
I hope that by being anal about safety while I'm conscious and alert I will instinctively follow the same rules in zombie mode by default.

kraigwy · March 29, 2009, 02:13 PM

This Zombie BS gives ligit shooters a bad name and gives ammo to the anti gun crowd.

SquidWarrior · March 29, 2009, 02:36 PM

When you are wearing a weapon, it is your duty to remain, awake, alert and have a firm grasp on the differances between that weapon and your tazer. Tired is not an excuse, "zombie" is not an excuse. Even when you are so tired you are running on autopilot, there is no excuse for negligence with a firearm.

BuckHammer · March 29, 2009, 02:38 PM

I would probably use something a little heavier than a pistol in a zombie apocalypse situation. Like a semi-auto rifle or a pump action shotgun. Then again, you can always go with the classic double barrel side by side.

Oh wait, wrong thread.

**JohnKSa** · March 29, 2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Its important, I believe, to train while having been deprived of both sleep and food...

It's important not to handle guns when you're impaired (whether by drugs, alcohol, lack of sleep, etc.).

If you get into a situation where you really need a gun and you're impaired then you'll have to do the best you can given the situation. Intentionally training with a firearm when your faculties are impaired is a very bad idea, IMO. Sort of like saying that the best way to learn to drive when impaired by prescription painkillers is to take prescription painkillers and then go drive.

JohnH1963 · March 29, 2009, 03:10 PM

I would never handle weapons while I am intoxicated. However, there are real world scenarios where officers or civilians are forced to handle weapons where there is lack of sleep, food or overall focus.

The officer in the above situation is handling this situation during late hours and probably after many hours on a shift. There appear to be protesters in the background providing additional stress by yelling and chanting. The other officers appear to be intimidated and are seen taking out their clubs at times. Before this episode, the BART police had discovered weapons in other previous arrests that night further elevating the stress levels.

My observation is that the officer who pulled his weapon might have been operating without all his facilities caused by different stressors. He may have been reaching for his TASER or he may not have been fully conscious like a late night driver who doesnt know exactly what is going on around them. He might have even imagined that the person on the ground was pulling a weapon.

It might be less safe to train with a lack of sleep. However, is it more safe to train without stress or to allow persons to operate in the public not having any training on how to operate during stressful times?

I think it would be better to stress test officers during training to see how they perform with weapons. Of course, under closely controlled conditions...

Another point I'd like to bring up is the weapon placement. I took away from the article the importance of placing your weapon in a place where you are unlikely to grab other things. The pistol might have been placed too closely next to the TASER on his belt. Im certain that if I lined up a 100 guys and told them to the draw the TASER, 95-99 of them would draw the TASER, but there is always that 1-5 guys who will draw the pistol...

kraigwy · March 29, 2009, 03:33 PM

OK sorry I miss understood, the zombie part. ( I hate that term)

Regarding you're reactions while tired, worn out or stressed out. To compinsate for that we have a little Trick called TRAINING.

If you train propertly and often, then when you cant think, your training kicks in and takes over.

I found that out during Tet, when none of us got any sleep, and in LE. Tet speaks for itself. In LE its not uncommon to work nights ,and send several days setting in a court room, then back to your shift. Not fun but its part of the game.

To compensate, you must train, and train some more so any action is taken subconsciensly.

None of us are guarnteed our 8 hours a day sleep.

**JohnKSa** · March 29, 2009, 03:48 PM

I agree that introducing stress into an evaluation process is probably valuable, what I was objecting to was the idea that gun owners should intentionally begin individual traning with their firearms when they know they're impaired (by loss of sleep or whatever).

That kind of thing should involve close supervision by experts, and IMO, no firearms at all.

I'm also not sure how much of this is necessary. Proper training will ingrain proper behavior into the trainee even if he's not artificially stressed. Stress has a way of showing up problems with inadequate training, but if the training is done right then the person will react properly even if stress is involved.

JohnH1963 · March 29, 2009, 05:20 PM

Sorry for the use of the "Z" word. I didnt know any other word to describe the sensation.

Stevie-Ray · March 29, 2009, 05:40 PM

What's a "zhombie?" Are you french?

Naterstein · March 29, 2009, 10:35 PM

Ive done the driving one more than I would like to admit, especially when I was young. It's scary to realize you dont remember what happened like the last 15 mins of that drive. I know my problem was rooted to boredom. I would think about other things, daydream I guess, just to pass the time.

Thats about the only thing Ive done like that tho were Ive had "zhombie" moment as you define it.

Nnobby45 · March 29, 2009, 10:52 PM

John, you've described "daydreaming your way down the road" in Condition White Minus.

Operating your pistol during a life and death encounter would be Condition Red Plus.

While operationg the pistol may be automatic, it's only because you've trained your yourself to shoot while your mind is fully occupied trying to make critical decisions. And it better if you're going to survive the fight and the court system.

The mind can't be totally disconnected from the trigger finger, but apparently was in the incident you described, since it's unlikely the officer would intentionally murder a suspect in front of fellow officers and dozens of witnesses at a crowded BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) station.

Not to get off subject, but there might be some places one had best not be if the verdict in that case is anything short of first degree murder.

Not impossible that a jury, possessed of the facts, may hand down a manslaughter conviction, though not if the trial is held in Oakland--given the hard feelings in the community against the Police.
Demonstrations were held against the police for fatally shooting the man who killed four of their own, and was in the process of trying to kill some more. Powder keg capable of spreading?

colostomyclown · March 29, 2009, 11:19 PM

Regarding that shooting, anyone with that kind of disrespect for law enforcement and flagrant aggressiveness towards ARMED police officers gets what's coming to them. However, I think it would've been better if a unit in riot gear came in and teargassed EVERYONE rather than someone being killed...but it happens. That was a bad situation for the police with a lot of ignorant people threatening them.

NRAhab · March 30, 2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colostomyclown

Regarding that shooting, anyone with that kind of disrespect for law enforcement and flagrant aggressiveness towards ARMED police officers gets what's coming to them

You think unarmed people who are not resisting should be shot in the back.

...

Anyway, on to the original topic of the thread - JohnKSa pretty much nails it. Training is the solution, and training under simulated stress is a good idea. Training when your judgment is impaired due to a lack of sleep is a bad idea. The whole point of training is teach yourself to be able to safely operate your firearm when you're under stress; which means you need to be able to absorb the training and learn from you. People don't learn effectively when they're exhausted, so you should train when you're alert.

OLNfan · March 30, 2009, 05:15 PM

Every one makes mistakes and this one costed a life. I think more training should of been needed again he was a rookie aswell. It doesnt affect my view of police offciers. Just cause 1 mess's up doesnt me you have to judge the rest.

scorpion_tyr · March 30, 2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

If you get into a situation where you really need a gun and you're impaired then you'll have to do the best you can given the situation. Intentionally training with a firearm when your faculties are impaired is a very bad idea, IMO.

That's not an opinion, it's a fact! IMO

Seriously it is a very bad idea.

BoulderTroll · April 3, 2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Not impossible that a jury, possessed of the facts, may hand down a manslaughter conviction, though not if the trial is held in Oakland--given the hard feelings in the community against the Police.

Any cop in Oakland who would pick a jury trial over a court trial is insane....Not saying that all judges like cops, but there's a better chance of that than twelve jurors.

March 29, 2009, 01:16 PM	#1
JohnH1963 Junior member Join Date: October 22, 2008 Posts: 416	Using your pistol while in "zhombie" mode... All of us have gone through moments in our life where we are "zhombies" in a situation. For example, you are driving down the road and all of a sudden you have driven several miles without even knowing where you just came from or what roads you passed. I have found an ideal example where the "zhombie" scenario occurred with a pistol. In this video, an officer pulls his weapon on an unarmed man during an arrest and fires at him. The man does appear resisting and some theories are that the officer was really going for his TASER. My opinion is the officer was in "zhombie" mode. He might have been working long hours and received little sleep. I dont believe he was aware of what he was doing. The officer does appear surprised at the situation and might have been really going for his TASER. Its important, I believe, to train while having been deprived of both sleep and food...realistic training in order to prevent "zhombie" mode during situations like this one in the video. http://hotair.com/archives/2009/01/0...rant-shooting/ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object...154P0R.DTL&o=1

March 29, 2009, 02:13 PM	#3
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	This Zombie BS gives ligit shooters a bad name and gives ammo to the anti gun crowd. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

March 29, 2009, 02:38 PM	#5
BuckHammer Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 286	I would probably use something a little heavier than a pistol in a zombie apocalypse situation. Like a semi-auto rifle or a pump action shotgun. Then again, you can always go with the classic double barrel side by side. Oh wait, wrong thread. __________________ Luck runs out. Boiler Up!

March 29, 2009, 03:10 PM	#7
JohnH1963 Junior member Join Date: October 22, 2008 Posts: 416	I would never handle weapons while I am intoxicated. However, there are real world scenarios where officers or civilians are forced to handle weapons where there is lack of sleep, food or overall focus. The officer in the above situation is handling this situation during late hours and probably after many hours on a shift. There appear to be protesters in the background providing additional stress by yelling and chanting. The other officers appear to be intimidated and are seen taking out their clubs at times. Before this episode, the BART police had discovered weapons in other previous arrests that night further elevating the stress levels. My observation is that the officer who pulled his weapon might have been operating without all his facilities caused by different stressors. He may have been reaching for his TASER or he may not have been fully conscious like a late night driver who doesnt know exactly what is going on around them. He might have even imagined that the person on the ground was pulling a weapon. It might be less safe to train with a lack of sleep. However, is it more safe to train without stress or to allow persons to operate in the public not having any training on how to operate during stressful times? I think it would be better to stress test officers during training to see how they perform with weapons. Of course, under closely controlled conditions... Another point I'd like to bring up is the weapon placement. I took away from the article the importance of placing your weapon in a place where you are unlikely to grab other things. The pistol might have been placed too closely next to the TASER on his belt. Im certain that if I lined up a 100 guys and told them to the draw the TASER, 95-99 of them would draw the TASER, but there is always that 1-5 guys who will draw the pistol... Last edited by JohnH1963; March 29, 2009 at 03:19 PM.

March 29, 2009, 03:33 PM	#8
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	OK sorry I miss understood, the zombie part. ( I hate that term) Regarding you're reactions while tired, worn out or stressed out. To compinsate for that we have a little Trick called TRAINING. If you train propertly and often, then when you cant think, your training kicks in and takes over. I found that out during Tet, when none of us got any sleep, and in LE. Tet speaks for itself. In LE its not uncommon to work nights ,and send several days setting in a court room, then back to your shift. Not fun but its part of the game. To compensate, you must train, and train some more so any action is taken subconsciensly. None of us are guarnteed our 8 hours a day sleep. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

March 29, 2009, 01:29 PM	#2
chemgirlie Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 331	In this situation I would almost (not quite though) equate zombie mode to being in a high stress situation. In both situations you react without giving your actions lots of thought. We can discuss and debate what we would do in a certain situation all we want, but often times the decision to shoot is made in an instant without going through all of the thought that we put into scenarios on the boards. I hope that by being anal about safety while I'm conscious and alert I will instinctively follow the same rules in zombie mode by default.

March 29, 2009, 02:36 PM	#4
SquidWarrior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Posts: 33	When you are wearing a weapon, it is your duty to remain, awake, alert and have a firm grasp on the differances between that weapon and your tazer. Tired is not an excuse, "zombie" is not an excuse. Even when you are so tired you are running on autopilot, there is no excuse for negligence with a firearm.

March 29, 2009, 03:48 PM	#9
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,005	I agree that introducing stress into an evaluation process is probably valuable, what I was objecting to was the idea that gun owners should intentionally begin individual traning with their firearms when they know they're impaired (by loss of sleep or whatever). That kind of thing should involve close supervision by experts, and IMO, no firearms at all. I'm also not sure how much of this is necessary. Proper training will ingrain proper behavior into the trainee even if he's not artificially stressed. Stress has a way of showing up problems with inadequate training, but if the training is done right then the person will react properly even if stress is involved. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

March 29, 2009, 05:20 PM	#10
JohnH1963 Junior member Join Date: October 22, 2008 Posts: 416	Sorry for the use of the "Z" word. I didnt know any other word to describe the sensation.

March 29, 2009, 05:40 PM	#11
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	What's a "zhombie?" Are you french? __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

March 29, 2009, 10:35 PM	#12
Naterstein Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2009 Location: Central KY Posts: 151	Ive done the driving one more than I would like to admit, especially when I was young. It's scary to realize you dont remember what happened like the last 15 mins of that drive. I know my problem was rooted to boredom. I would think about other things, daydream I guess, just to pass the time. Thats about the only thing Ive done like that tho were Ive had "zhombie" moment as you define it.

March 29, 2009, 10:52 PM	#13
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	John, you've described "daydreaming your way down the road" in Condition White Minus. Operating your pistol during a life and death encounter would be Condition Red Plus. While operationg the pistol may be automatic, it's only because you've trained your yourself to shoot while your mind is fully occupied trying to make critical decisions. And it better if you're going to survive the fight and the court system. The mind can't be totally disconnected from the trigger finger, but apparently was in the incident you described, since it's unlikely the officer would intentionally murder a suspect in front of fellow officers and dozens of witnesses at a crowded BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) station. Not to get off subject, but there might be some places one had best not be if the verdict in that case is anything short of first degree murder. Not impossible that a jury, possessed of the facts, may hand down a manslaughter conviction, though not if the trial is held in Oakland--given the hard feelings in the community against the Police. Demonstrations were held against the police for fatally shooting the man who killed four of their own, and was in the process of trying to kill some more. Powder keg capable of spreading? Last edited by Nnobby45; March 29, 2009 at 11:39 PM.

March 29, 2009, 11:19 PM	#14
colostomyclown Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Posts: 613	Regarding that shooting, anyone with that kind of disrespect for law enforcement and flagrant aggressiveness towards ARMED police officers gets what's coming to them. However, I think it would've been better if a unit in riot gear came in and teargassed EVERYONE rather than someone being killed...but it happens. That was a bad situation for the police with a lot of ignorant people threatening them.

March 30, 2009, 05:15 PM	#16
OLNfan Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: British Columbia Canada Posts: 277	Every one makes mistakes and this one costed a life. I think more training should of been needed again he was a rookie aswell. It doesnt affect my view of police offciers. Just cause 1 mess's up doesnt me you have to judge the rest. __________________ "Dear Governor Axtell. I've heard that you will give 200 dollars for my head. Perhaps we should meet and talk. I am at the Juarez village at the border. Send 3 men, and instruct them not to shoot, as I am unarmed. In short, Sir; I surrender. Your obedient servant William H. Bonney. PS: I changed my mind. Kiss my ass."