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Old December 12, 2011, 08:00 AM   #26
Slugo
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NICE!!
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Old December 12, 2011, 08:20 AM   #27
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Yes, very nice.
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Old December 12, 2011, 08:38 AM   #28
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thanks, guys. I like to keep it simple w/o a bunch of bolt on crap!
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Old December 12, 2011, 10:17 AM   #29
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Yes - it is....

However, you won't know that until you turn around and sell it.

A $270 Express is always going to be just that. A $270 Express.
You can add whatever "goodies" you want to it, but, it will never say "Wilson" on it.
Heck, it might even be "better" than a Wilson,,,but,,,it will still not be a Wilson.
Really who cares if it says Wilson on it. It will not hold its value any better than any other 870 pump gun. The Express is a $270 or so gun and if you shoot it & maintain it you will be able to sell if for $150 to $175 depending on wear.

Take that $1000 Wilson and shoot it and maintain it and if you turn around to sell it you will be lucky to get $500 for it. Things on the high end/custom end do not hold their value as much as people think. The market for standard guns is much larger than semi-custom guns like the Wilson 870 and resale prices reflect that.
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Old December 12, 2011, 10:26 AM   #30
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Really who cares if it says Wilson on it.
Folk with more money than sense.
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Old December 12, 2011, 10:34 AM   #31
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Folk with more money than sense.
Yeah I guess. I can see picking up a Wilson 1911 or havings Wilson do some custom work on a 1911 but everytime I look at the cost vs my go to guy I simply cannot justfy the price.

I can get custom work without the Wilson name, from a shop run by a member of the US Pistolsmith Guild, even using Wilson parts for about 50% of what Wilson would charge me so I never end up using them.

I certainly would not bother with Wilson on an 870 Police. IMHO they are the best value in defensive shotguns. They do not exhibit the flaws you see in the express models. They have cleaner actions from the factory and IMHO feel more robust and the upcharge is reasonable.
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Old December 12, 2011, 10:43 AM   #32
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Really who cares if it says Wilson on it. It will not hold its value any better than any other 870 pump gun
Prove it...
The ball's in your court.
Let's see some cold hard facts to back that up, not some speculations.

Let's not use a plain $270 Express against a Wilson either.
You have to factor in the add ons to the $270 Express and if applicable, any gunsmith charges.

PS - This is far from the first time a question like this has come up...
One previous poster had the cold hard truth explained to them that - while they had put all the same "goodies" on their 870, it was just that an 870 with goodies.
The person that broke the news to them told them that at the gunshop she worked in, the Wilson would always be a Wilson. Their 870 would be an 870 and sorry, we can't give you anywhere near what you put into the goodies.

Last edited by Hal; December 12, 2011 at 11:06 AM.
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Old December 12, 2011, 10:44 AM   #33
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You don't even need the police model. It is the same gun as the express. The only difference is a few $5 parts and a lot of marketing.
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Old December 12, 2011, 11:07 AM   #34
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I purchased an 870 Express (20 gauge), and did the following for relatively little money:
  • replaced extractor with police model
  • replaced carrier dog spring with police model
  • replaced recoil pad with Remington Supercell
  • installed Elzetta flashlight and mount
  • replaced mag extension with Scattergun Tech model (Wilson) for the stronger spring
The first three cost me less than $30. The flashlight cost me around $200, the replacement mag extension around $70. That's a LOT of change left over compared to buying the Wilson.
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Old December 12, 2011, 11:36 AM   #35
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You don't even need the police model. It is the same gun as the express. The only difference is a few $5 parts and a lot of marketing.
This might be true these days but when I look at my 870 Police vs a 870 Express the differences are clear. When I bought mine they were still using the ISS safety so the extension tubes were different. These are no longer being used. It is my understanding that currently the recievers for express, Police and wingmaster are the same. This was not always the case. To me this is pretty sad and is an example of the cheapening of the product in order to achieve greater economy of scale. Remmy has cheapened the Police and Wingmasters which is also why I often buy used.

The big difference in the express and the Police these days is the finish. Park vs Matte. The express has a plastic trigger assembly plate and group. It also uses a MIM extractor. So yes currently you are talking about a few parts and few $$ but that is not what you are really paying for IMHO.

The real difference IMHO is the finish work on the gun. The Police and the wingmasters have a smoother action becuse they have had a little more hands time at the factory. Most of this can be corrected by the end user but having it right from the factory is nice IMHO. For some this is not worth it but since I spend my money and you spend yours UMMV... LOL
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Old December 12, 2011, 11:43 AM   #36
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Quote:
Prove it...
The ball's in your court.
Let's see some cold hard facts to back that up, not some speculations.

Let's not use a plain $270 Express against a Wilson either.
You have to factor in the add ons to the $270 Express and if applicable, any gunsmith charges.

PS - This is far from the first time a question like this has come up...
One previous poster had the cold hard truth explained to them that - while they had put all the same "goodies" on their 870, it was just that an 870 with goodies.
The person that broke the news to them told them that at the gunshop she worked in, the Wilson would always be a Wilson. Their 870 would be an 870 and sorry, we can't give you anywhere near what you put into the goodies.
Hal look around on GB, Auction arms, Guns america and classified on forums and you will see that Wilson shotguns priced over $500 to $600 depending on config simply do not sell. They sit while 870 express, 870 wingmasters & 870 Police sell.

Yes absolutely if you add a ton of stuff onto a 870 express you are not going to get your money back. If you put $2000 into a custom Colt by Wilson you are not going to get your money back. You will be lucky to get 50% of your investment back. If you buy a 870 Express and put $300 into is you can expect to get back about $325 to $350 out of it. About 70% of the base gun plus 50% of the upgrades.

Now lets take that Wilson. You paid $1000+ and again you will be lucky to get $600....

That is a pretty straight up apples to apples comparision. So please explain to me again why I need the Wilson name on my Remington receiver.....
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Old December 12, 2011, 12:28 PM   #37
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One item that the current police comes with that is unwanted is the 10 pound trigger spring. The synthetic trigger guard of the Express is actually preverred. You are correct about the Parkerized finish on the police. One police armorer sells police departments guns based on the Express on the Police and if you get an Express he can have it Parkerized. Google AIPI Tactical.
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Old December 12, 2011, 12:44 PM   #38
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One item that the current police comes with that is unwanted is the 10 pound trigger spring. The synthetic trigger guard of the Express is actually preverred.
Yeah that is a matter of preference. Some people like the plastic because it does not scratch and will not rust. I prefer the steel. I can see it both ways.
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Old December 12, 2011, 02:25 PM   #39
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Ok - here's the cold hard facts/prices..
Taking all the features from the Wilson Border Patrol and putting together what's needed to bring a stock 870 Express to that.

$ 170.00 parkerize
$ 45.00 extension tube
$ 120.00 sights
$ 75.00 butt stock
$ 30.00 foreend
$ 15.00 jumbo head safety
$ 45.00 sling
$ 12.00 spring and follower kit

$ 15.00 swivel and mount
--------------------------------------
$ 527.00

Add the cost of a new 870 to that:- using an arbitray figure of $268.00 - since I couldn't find on anywhere less than $319.00 online. But hey, it's Christmas and sales go on all the time.

$ 795

Wiilson Combat Border Patrol
$ 1135.00

Difference - $340

Quote:
while 870 express, 870 wingmasters & 870 Police sell.
I agree 100% with that - however none of those three compare apples to apples with a Wilson Border Patrol. The Express is agood solid basic gun, the Wingmaster is a thing of beauty and awe and the police is a police.

Quote:
Yes absolutely if you add a ton of stuff onto a 870 express you are not going to get your money back.
The actual cost difference between a Wilson and a no name built up using the same parts is $295.00.

Assuming you can get back 50% on each...
Which BTW, I think the Wilson will return more than 50%.
I also think the stock Express is going to lose a lot of value due to the parkerized & add ons seldom return much more than a token - 30% at best and more like 25%...

The Wilson will be $572 and the no name will be $397.

Last edited by Hal; December 12, 2011 at 04:15 PM.
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Old December 12, 2011, 03:08 PM   #40
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Hal,

I think your $572 figure is $45 to high. You added the $45 sling in twice.

So, bottomline, the cost difference between the two would actually be $340.
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Old December 12, 2011, 03:16 PM   #41
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One item that the current police comes with that is unwanted is the 10 pound trigger spring. The synthetic trigger guard of the Express is actually preverred.
The Police never came with a 10 lb. trigger (sear) spring. It was 7-8 lb, and it was for police liability issues and nothing else. However, several years ago Remington began using the same 4-4 1/2 lb sear spring in all 870's, including the Police. I have owned a couple of older, used Police, and have always swapped out the heavier spring for the "normal" version.

You are correct, the plastic trigger guard on the Express is actually more durable than the pressed aluminum version on the Police.
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Old December 12, 2011, 03:19 PM   #42
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$ 170.00 parkerize (not necessary)
$ 45.00 extension tube (factory guns have one)
$ 120.00 sights (Bad idea. Too slow and could get you killed at close range)
$ 75.00 butt stock (not necessary)
$ 30.00 foreend (not necessary)
$ 15.00 jumbo head safety (not necessary and dumb)
$ 45.00 sling (not necessary and dumb)
$ 12.00 spring and follower kit (can get at Brownells)
$ 45.00 sling (not necessary and dumb)
$ 15.00 swivel and mount (not necessary)

There is no difference in the action of a police, a wingmaster, and an express. They are the same gun.
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Old December 12, 2011, 03:28 PM   #43
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Guys,a brief interlude in the Mine IS Better dispute going on here.....

A box stock 870 of ANY flavor is an awesome weapon. It's limited by the operator, not vice versa.

Sure, the right bellsnwhistles can help a little, but most of us would benefit more from a few cases more of ammo through our tools, not another bolt on gimcrack.

Conscientiously apply a set of wear marks to your choice of shotgun. Get the stock fitting you, and buy more ammo than most Central American revolutions need.

Like my good friend Lee Lapin says.....

" Mindset, skilllset, then toolset"...
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Old December 12, 2011, 03:30 PM   #44
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You guys shoulda seen price on the nighthawk 870
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Old December 12, 2011, 03:30 PM   #45
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(not necessary and dumb)
You mean, of course, "not necessary and dumb" in your opinion. Others may differ. For example, IMO, I consider the oversized head safety a necessity on an 870.
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Old December 12, 2011, 04:08 PM   #46
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Conscientiously apply a set of wear marks on your choice of shotgun...


Best statement yet.

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm usually more comfortable around a guy with a base model gun that has these 'wear marks' then a guy with a 'star wars' gun without them.
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Old December 12, 2011, 04:12 PM   #47
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I think your $572 figure is $45 to high. You added the $45 sling in twice.

So, bottomline, the cost difference between the two would actually be $340.
Shortwave - thank you for pointing out my error.
I corrected the post.


Oldguy,
Your comments and opinions do not follow the topic.
The discussion isn't what you think is or isn't needed.
It's about the cost of a Wislon and a stock express with all the same features.

Dave,
Quote:
Guys,a brief interlude in the Mine IS Better dispute going on here.....
Excuse me - but - I don't think the Wilson is better than someone else's. No way no how. I don't even like the damned thing! I wouldn't keep one even if someone gave it to me.
OTOH - Neither would I spend anything to change my $249.00 870 Express either. Box stock it's fine for me.
The orignal question was is the 1000$ Wilson 600$ better than the 270$ Express.

My answer still stands as - yes, but, only if/when you sell it.

Last edited by Hal; December 12, 2011 at 04:25 PM.
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Old December 12, 2011, 05:03 PM   #48
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You might want to take a look at what JD at AIPPI tactical has to say about building your 870. For HD he is all for a 20 gauge, feels that ghost ring sights can get you killed, and has nothing against the basic 870 the OP found for $270. http://www.aiptactical.com/Build_Your_Weapon.html

You may also want to take a look at the video linked to that page.
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Old December 12, 2011, 05:13 PM   #49
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The one gun that I have regretted buying and sold at a loss to a friend is a VERY reputable custom race Benelli M2 worth $2300. IMHO just get the 870 off the rack ...it really is just a shotgun
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Old December 12, 2011, 05:59 PM   #50
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Actually, my comments are spot on. Wilson adds a bunch of marginal stuff that is not needed and does not contribute to the usefulness of a shotgun for fighting purposes. Things like ghost rings sights actually make the gun less useful, not more useful. Aippi is absolutely right about shotgun sights.

This is about the wise use of money spent on a fighting shotgun. Therefore, a $1000 Wilson 870 is a waste of money.
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