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Old December 20, 2009, 12:28 PM   #1
Gator_Weiss
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Remington 870 vs Mossberg 500 for a combat shotgun?

Having used both rather extensively, I found the following traits:

Remington:

1. Excellent machining and excellent steel. Tolerances appear close compared to the Mossberg.

2. Solid feel and minimal muzzle climb on discharge. Has some balance to it.

3. If the slide is not fully in the forward position, you cant load any cartridges into the magazine.

4. Safety is in an awkward position. It is not ambidexterous, and you cant see it at the same time you are looking down range toward your attacker.

5. Slide release requires you to "reach" and to leave the area of the trigger. In an emergency, you have to leave the slide release and navigate back to the trigger. However; The Remington slide release is ambidexterous.

6. Remington has been chosen by military and police units in USA and all over the world, and so has the Mossberg. USA has both in it's military inventory.

MOSSBERG:

1. Safety is large. It is on top, where it can be operated by either hand, and it can be seen while being attentive to your target downrange. There is no fumbling around to find it. You move it forward to release it - the same direction that your charge is going to fly - toward your target!

2. Slide release is in the pistolgrip area, and probably most people can activate it with either hand, while leaving the trigger finger on the trigger or at least in the trigger guard.

3. The slide does not have to be locked all the way forward to load rounds in the magazine. You can load easily and rapidly, and it is easy to safely unload it without running the slide over and over.

4. Machining is to a loose tolerance on everything except where the bolt locks to the yoke on the back of the chamber. It actually locks to the barrel and it is very effective. It locks quickly into a large squared out port, and it will lock solidly when the weapon is dirty and filthy.

5. Muzzle climb is at an acceptable rate on discharge.

*********************************************************

Range work on both of these weapons tends to indicate that the Mossberg is more the easier shotgun to operate under stressful circumstances and for that reason it might be the better combat piece.

The 870 is an adequate combat piece that retains it's value well in the used market. It has a much more solid feel than the Mossberg.

In the used market, Mossberg doesnt seem to retain it's value. The used market renders the Mossberg very affordable for that reason, but you wont get rich trading them. Remington retains good value on the new and used markets for many reasons that are well known to all of us here.

Both shotguns are more than acceptable for combat duty. Teaching and training may be easier on the Mossberg for the novice or inexperienced troop. Combat conditions definitely find the features of the Mossberg to be more than adequate in any lighting condition.

In my humble opinion, I would grab the Mossberg first in a **** storm. Remington would be high on my list of desired weapons, but I personally will choose to take a Mossberg 500 over the 870.

Does anyone else have any information on which of these two shotguns might be the better combat piece?
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Old December 20, 2009, 12:56 PM   #2
Dave McC
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It's pretty much a wash as far as which is "Better".

In trained, cool hands, either has the capacity to keep threat levels acceptably low.

I've got a half century of 870 use behind me. They've never let me down.

Still if a 500 was all at hand, I'd feel well armed and would be.

Try both, then get the one that FEELS best....
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Old December 20, 2009, 01:18 PM   #3
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I've got a 500 and love it, thats my two cents.
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Old December 20, 2009, 01:22 PM   #4
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I just filled the magazine of an 870 with the bolt halfway back so point #3 in your Remington column is wrong.Why do you feel you have to look at a safety while looking at your "attacker"?
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Old December 20, 2009, 02:11 PM   #5
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going to agree w/ most of the points. This is how I came to the side of Mossberg.


BUT, I sure do like those all steel receivers. Remington's a great gun. Just not for me...although if the opportunity presented itself one would be (and has been) more than welcome in the stable.
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Old December 20, 2009, 02:29 PM   #6
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I rather like the safety on the 870, my finger is never in the trigger guard until I'm ready to fire, and the safety is right there as I slide my finger in the guard.
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Old December 20, 2009, 07:11 PM   #7
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This is my take on the Mossberg vs. Remington Debate
(In my case I'll use a 590 vs. 870, as I have more experience with 590s)


Remington 870

- Steel Receiver (though honestly, I've never heard of anyone wearing out or breaking a Mossberg 500 receiver, never mind the thicker 590 receiver so while steel is nice/nicer to have it's not really an issue)

-"Smoother" action

- More Refined in its machining

- Can do slug/shell switch drills much easier (extractor lets go of the shell before bolt is all the way back, unlike the Mossberg which doesn't let go of the shell until you slam the bolt all the way back and chamber another round)

- More Aesthetically pleasing, (Personal)



Mossberg 590

- Better "Out of box" ready configurations (Bayonet lug, 8+1 capacity, ghost ring sights, heat shield, etc)

- Dual extractors

- Magazine tube is not permanently fixed to receiver (have to trash 870 if the mag tube gets busted

- Shell lifter is a superior design, and stays up and out of the way for ease of loading

- Safety / bolt release in more accessible locations

- Looser tolerances, will function in more adverse conditions

- More affordable pricing



From many first hand personal accounts I've gathered from hard use / abuse of both guns, Mossbergs are said to be much tougher, and run for a lot longer without having problems than the 870.

Maybe the older Wingmasters were better quality, but I've heard a lot of bad things about the 870 Expresses, and major problems after only a couple thousand rounds fired. Most of these seem to center around the guns having problems loading / cycling properly after a period of time.

A pet peave of mine in regards to Remington is their very anti-gun "PC" neuter policy, having implemented such gems as the integral safety locks, and mag tube dimples.

They also don't offer combat guns "ready to go" like Mossberg did and does. They've gotten better lately with offering more extended mag tube shotguns stock, however, they still hardly set up many guns stock with ghost ring sights. Forget about the bayonet leg as it's not even an option.

If you just want a gun for hunting, home defense and occasional target shooting, any major shotgun brand will suffice and more than meet most shooters needs. However, we are talking about hard use, hardcore durability, reliability, and longevity in this post. If you want a SHTF / end of the world gun, go with the mossberg!

Last edited by Little Wolf; December 20, 2009 at 07:18 PM.
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Old December 20, 2009, 07:26 PM   #8
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Im a fan of Mossbergs. I have a 500 and a Mav 88 and I love both to death.

Remingtons are nice, dont get me wrong, but I stick to Moss.
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Old December 20, 2009, 09:20 PM   #9
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XM21, I see what you are saying, but the comparison gun I used just would not do it.

XM21, I see what you are saying, but the comparison gun I used just would not do it. I had to have the slide locked all the way forward, or I could not load the tuibe. Perhaps this is something peculiar to this particular shotgun....I have access to another and will check it out again.
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Old December 21, 2009, 09:30 AM   #10
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One more point of note for me...

Them dern swaged into place do-ma-hickeys inside the 870 receiver can only be repaired so many times before gun is dead.

When I clean my 500, I am able to clean behind everything unlike the 870.

Brent
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Old December 21, 2009, 04:06 PM   #11
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Those "do-ma-hickeys" would be your shell latches and the ejector.
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Old December 21, 2009, 04:27 PM   #12
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I'll take mossberg 500, easier to take down and clean for me atleast, but then again im used to it. Also as mention before magazine tube isnt fixed, and barrel swaps are easier, and plus my mossberg with the cyl. bore is a hell of a lot more accurate with slugs than my grandpas Rem. 870 with the same bore. and plus my mossberg are beat to $*it been banged around hunting, dad left it in the moist basement and ive dropped it a couple of times on rocks and such. always cycled and went bang, and for 85 dollars when my dad bought it back in the early 80s. you cant beat it for price and durability
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Old December 21, 2009, 04:29 PM   #13
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I love my crusty old pawnshop Mossberg 500, but every one i've held has the same stupid rattle between the forestock & the ammo tube. I've often wondered if they come with some bushing that just disappears or something.
Overall, best $100 i remember spending (+ a bit for accessories, 14 years later).
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Old December 21, 2009, 06:37 PM   #14
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I am pretty surprised that most of you are going toward the Mossbergs. I don't have any experience with Mossberg, only with Remington. I will have to give them a look.
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Old December 21, 2009, 07:08 PM   #15
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I have models of both designs (3 Remingtons and 2 Mossbergs) and you aren't going to go wrong with either one. The 870 is smoother, at least from the box, than the Mossberg and has an excellent reputation in law enforcement with scads of aftermarket parts available to go from stock to super-duper-tacti-kewl-mall-ninja-zombie-killing-blaster if that's what floats your boat. The Mossberg has the better control locations and internal parts that are easily replaceable at the operator level. As far as smoothness, he Mossberg will over time loosen up to rival the Remington with no problem. My first Mossberg is testament to that. Either way you are going to do good.
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Old December 21, 2009, 07:09 PM   #16
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Old December 21, 2009, 10:28 PM   #17
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It's pretty much a Ford vs Chevy thing. Some people prefer one, some the other, but both will do the job.
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Old December 21, 2009, 11:07 PM   #18
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informative, highly thought out and well founded. congrats
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Old December 22, 2009, 11:29 AM   #19
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I gotta say the dual extractors make a big difference to me, the hulls fly out faster and straighter, and the fact that it will keep working if one were to break (which I doubt) is a nice touch. I say this in comparsion to my old winchesters which can be a bit weak sometimes.
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Old December 22, 2009, 11:48 AM   #20
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For combat or SD the 870 over the 500 anyday. The Mossberg 590 is much improved for this, but I still slightly prefer the 870.

The Mossberg safety is its worst feature. It is equally difficult to operate for both right and left handed users. It is not on the tang as advertised, but on the top of the receiver forcing the shooter to place their thumb in an awkward position. It is in a position where it can easily be hit and accidently disengaged or broken.

Behind the triggerguard is much faster and more positive, even for lefty's who learn how to use it.
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Old December 22, 2009, 12:56 PM   #21
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Quote:
Behind the triggerguard is much faster and more positive, even for lefty's who learn how to us

IF you install the oversized version, maybe so. As it stands, I disagree. I will begrudgingly agree about the Mossberg safety if you have smaller hands/short fingers.

It's all moot though, while I'm a Mossberg guy when it comes down to it, I'll take the Winchester 1300 over both the 500 and the 870 to be honest. I believe it possesses the best features of both. 870's good points (18.5" profile with full mag tube) and the 500's (slide release location is the same but the buttons more comfortable, more rounded trigger guard for gloved hands or big fingers).

The things I do not like about the 870, in this order - relative inability to completely disassemble easily (includes mag tube/extractor/internal parts like shell catch), cost of replacement parts and cost of new factory guns (539 dollars for an 870 Police Magnum w/out extension? Nice gun, but c'mon now...), safety/slide release locations. I believe out of the two companies, Mossberg offers more of what I want and for cheaper, and FWIW it has been more reliable than my 870's. Just so you know I'm not foolin' :

Shotguns I've owned in the past two years, some I still own, some I sold...

Remington :

Rem870 Express 7 shot "riot" model, 3 different ones. 2 with standard full synthetic stock, 1 w/ Folding Butler Creek protector, factory. Wasn't pleased with any of them, to be honest. They'd do the trick, but all possessed the rough chamber syndrome and the finish felt much cheaper than any Mossberg finish I've owned. Did like the action.

1975 Remington 870 Wingmaster, 2 3/4" only, turned "tacticool". Sold long barrel and furniture to a good home, added Hogue Tamer pistol grip and forend, Tacstar sidesaddle, Remington replacement barrel 18.5 and Choate 2 rnd extension. Sturdier than an Abrams tank, very smoothe action, lovely feel overall,...except it jammed. It locked up solid. Sold it. Coulda been fixed with TLC. I've never had a Mossberg lock up on me. If the price was nice, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another of these.

Winchester :

1300 Defender, 18.5" w/ wood stock and ribbed forend. 5+1 capacity. Loved it, but...action is definitely an acquired taste. Some clal the 1300 "glassy", personally if you're used to an 870 and especially a Mossberg, you'll find the action a bit...tough to get used to. Very reliable, highly pointable and good gun overall.

1300 Defender, 18.5" black matte 7+1 capacity. My ideal shotgun. No complaints or anything I'd change except adding a few accessories and the fact I wish I could add a metal trigger assembly and that the disassembly takes some getting used to.

Mossberg, bear with me. This'll get lengthy.

Mossberg 500, pgo cruiser. Parkerized w/ mossberg pistol grip kit. Gun was terribly reliable and built like a tank. However, the Mossberg brand pgo kit is a piece of feces and the hard-as-a-rock feel will turn your hand into mush in seconds flat, even with birdshot! The ergonomics of it, as far as pistol grips go, is nice, because it allows you to use your thumb to activate the slide release. Others make that harder. Great gun, terrible grip.

Mossberg 590 security, 20" barrel, heat shield, 8+1 capacity. Owned 2. Hated them at first. They have a habit of having the mag tube spring bind up, for one reason or another. This is an easy fix, which I didn't know at the time. Replace that spring and you will have a beast of gun. Went bang each and every time. I could drain all 9 shots in around 4-5 seconds tops. Not a single jam/feed issue after mag spring was replaced. They get smoother with use. Would buy and own again, even in the "cheap" blued and plastic tirgger guard/safety button setup. Fantastic gun and offers insane firepower as far as shotguns go.


Mossberg 590 special purpose w/ Ghost rings and matte finish, 20" barrel. Same as above, except I didn't care for the ghost rings and I prefer a heat shield due to my reload methods.

Mossberg 500 Mariner, 20", 7+1. Apparently a discontinued model now. In some ways, my favorite Mossberg I've owned. Sturdy as hell, smoothest action I've had in a Mossberg, zero issues. Needed funds and sold. Would buy in a hot second again if the price was right.

Mossberg 590 Mariner, 20" barrel, same as the above 590's except the finish and action were better. I believe the Marinecote really improves the action. If I don't get one of these or another 1300 as my next pump shotgun, it'll be a 590a1 Mariner 6-shot and I'll add an extension.

Mossberg 500 ATP, 18.5" heavy (I think) barrel, 5+1 capacity, rifle sights, old style flat stain wood stock and forend. Made the most beastly rack sound I've ever heard. Literally a Chik-CHAK every time. I believe due to the wood. Great gun all around, not my favorite Mossberg I've had but would trust my life to one provided it'd been gone over carefully and kept up. Age and use is a factor with these guns. I believe it was some kind of South American milcontract gun or something. Regret selling, in a way.

Mossberg 590a1, 6 shot, heavy barrel and mtl trigger assembly and safety button, 3 dot Glock sights. Um...the last word in a combat pump, in my opinion. Never selling. Only mod coming is a Mesa Tactical 6 rd sidesaddle and a replacement heavy barrel w/ bead sight as I prefer bead to any sight on a shotgun. May change out the Speedfeed set for a Riot Wood set.


Mossberg 500, 18.5", 5+1 with pistol grip Hogue Tamer set. My house gun. Rests against the wall next to my bed, almost out of sight, 5 in the tube "cruiser ready". Dead reliable and brutally fast. I can empty a tube of standard power 00 buck fairly accurately (within reason, it IS a PGO) in 3-4 seconds tops. Zero malfunctions, although my old style 6 3./4" forend is rubbing/contacting the barrel slightly. Only mods are a Tacstar sidesaddle, Mossberg brand heatshield, switching out the forend for the new longer style and adding a quality green laser at some point.
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Old December 22, 2009, 03:44 PM   #22
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I like the both and the winchester 1300 20ga I sold liked it as well just wish it was a 12ga.

I can see where the Mossberg is easyer to load in a high stress deal then my Winchester would have been.

I would take either one and think they both will get the job done. If the Mossberg sucked so bad why are they still making them?

I own a 500 and cant wait to put led down range soon and that will happen Christmas weekend.
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Old December 22, 2009, 04:27 PM   #23
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Quote;
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If the Mossberg sucked so bad why are they still making them?

----------------------
Not only are they still making them, in 2007 Mossberg led the industry in shotgun production, and if you include Maverick's separate total, Mossberg was by far the production leader. So apparently Mossberg is more than holding it's own in the marketplace...

http://www.shootingindustry.com/Pages/SpecRep02.html

I have a couple of Mossbergs, but more than a dozen 870s (yeah, I'm a fan). And IMO, anyone who claims the Mossberg (or Maverick) isn't a tough, reliable shotgun just isn't being objective.
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Old December 22, 2009, 06:54 PM   #24
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TxGun thats what Im saying if they where crap they wouldnt be doing or selling guns still after all these years.

I think they both are good and will serve anyones needs and in combat Im not picking up my 12ga to go into battle with its my AK or AR with the 12ga being used in some way shape or form.
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Old December 22, 2009, 08:49 PM   #25
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mossberg 590

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